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Shut 'em down!
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-10-31 12:41:11
Whether he was forced out or not you just said that only the libs allow em to step down like that lol... the only reason I'm sticking on this is to point out that there really isn't that much of a difference between the way the parties operate... they just have different goals... or should I say that their interests on certain policies are so far apart that it pulls them away from even working on things they agree on unless its one of those slam dunk everyone loves a puppy policies...
Dude he is GONE! Michael D. Brown is who we are talking about for those wondering. He didn't just step down and move to another department. He is GONE, like See ya, wouldn't want to be ya. you'll never work in this town again!!!
Gone
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 12:42:26
I don't necassarily agree that anyone who makes a mistake like this on the conservative front gets tha axe right away without question... There is certainly nepotism among conservatives, sure. But Nixon was brutal and Reagan was no slouch either in that department. he fired 11,000 air traffic controllers without batting an eyelash. Nopotism is rampant among the government... I especially feel that sting sharply here in Illinois... but you make it seem like the conservative front is about nothing but results and mistakes are met either with swift punishment or termination... that's just not how it works... politics in general is covering peoples *** until you can't do it anymore... then you make apologies and hope some other scandal or tradgey hits so people forget about it or you do end up getting rid of em... pubs and dems aren't much different in that respect... I don't think we need to do either extremes in my honest opinion.
First off, if you are hired to do a job, you better well know how to do it. If it shows you don't know how to do your job, then you need to be replaced.
Secondly, if you are showing progress, and something happens beyond your own control, then you shouldn't have to be asked to step down or get canned. I'll even go a little further and say some small portion of ineptness would be allowed if your actual benefit for the government is that much greater than the liability you caused on a small number of times. If the overall benefit outweighs the liability of a few mistakes, then why should I fire you? Just don't let those liabilities increase.
I don't get the whole liberal loyalist idea that, if you are loyal to the guy up top and swear your everlasting allegiance of the liberal party of America, you deserve a spot that many people are more qualified to hold. Why not put your best people in the best positions? What's wrong with that?
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-10-31 12:42:52
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Carter is the best post-Presidential President we've had. He wasn't a very good president but I'd be lying if I didn't like the man as a person. Obama, the first black president of the united states. a wild rambling analysis that nobody has time for. Reagan, Clinton and GWB all had experience as governors and I think it gave them experience in leading large governments that obama is sorely lacking. GHWB also didn't serve as a governor and suffered many of the same mistakes obama has. He had quite a wealth of experience. But when the ***hit the fan the people he relied on to "fill in the gaps" buckled. Which cost him a second term of course. Carter was governor of georgia, and no offense to Georgians, the pace of government (and life in general) there is rather slow. I think his hesitation to act swiftly was seen as weakness. Both men also suffered because they hadn't built their organizations through the party, so nobody owed them anything politically and the results were the same. In the plus column Obama is an excellent campaign organizer. His primary campaign in 08 was excellent. Let's not gloss over the fact that he even toppled Clinton which was no easy task. I would say it was the tougher fight than the one against McCain. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of actually running a government, he just does't have the skill set. He tried to not make the same mistakes as Carter and instead mend the fences broken during the primary fights but the people he relied on to help him run the country (Hillary Clinton is a fine example)were looking out for themselves and not his best interest. The word "Incompetence" is thrown around a lot but I think it's more of a lack of experience and poor choices at key leadership positions. Love them or hate them both Nixon and Reagan brought with them very conservative, pragmatic, goal oriented, results driven staff. In conservative circles especially in big business there is a lot of focus on past success. You are promoted based on these success and fired just as easily for failure. In the liberal sector, results don't matter. there is no "bottom line" everyone looks to in order to judge your results. It's more about your commitment to the cause or your loyalty to the party or your pedigree. But that creates a real problem when it comes to dealing with a situation. Was Hillary Clinton incompetent for her handling of the begahzi crisis or was she just ill equipped to deal with it in the first place having had no experience in such matters. In conservative circles she would have been fired but in liberal circles she was allowed to step down. Now, if a republican like Nixon or Reagan had implemented obamacare they would found the BEST PERSON the most qualified person from the insurance sector to head the operation and if they faltered they would have been very publicly fired. Liberals don't work that way. There is always a second chance there is always room for improvement it's not the do or die world of corporate profits... it's the feel good world of intentions. That's government.. Ok so then how did Bill Clinton get some of the things right that obama still hasn't picked up on. And the answer is he hired some very "mean" people to do the dirty work for him. Look at James Carville. Clinton had other priorities, let's say, but he left the "work" to some very ambitious people. He was also very concerned about his legacy. In that regard, Obama doesn't have to worry as much. He already earned the title "The First Black President" So whether obamacare works or not is irrelevant. First, in liberal circles results don't matter nearly as much as intentions Second, He already has his place in the history books sewn up. Third, no one will ever hold him accountable for anything for fear of being branded a racist. He's got it in the bag. it's screwed glued and tattooed. The right can scream and tear their hair out all they want. Obama will never be impeached or held accountable for his mistakes. Period. By conservative measures he was doomed to fail from the jump because he doesn't have what it takes to be president in the first place. And obama knows he isn't going to win any of those people over anyways. It's a fundamental difference in philosophy. pragmatic vs idealistic. obama won when he beat hillary. conservatives are still scratching their heads looking at red and black numbers on a spreadsheet and failing to understand. He won when he beat her, he doesn't even care about them or clingers or birthers or tea partiers... Was Kathleen Sebelius the best choice to head health and human services? Well that depends on who you ask. She was governor of kansas, she paid her dues politically, she comes from a political family. So in liberal circles, yes. Has she ever built a website or worked in insurance? No. So in conservative circles was she the best person to run obamacare, No. do liberals care what conservatives think about her qualifications, No. Will she be fired? No. Will she step down or be moved around? Maybe. She made the boss look bad. If she worked for nixon she would be in stocks on the white house lawn getting pelted with tomatoes and never work in this town again. But she works Obama, so she will be praised for her dedication and loyalty. Obamacare won't work because it doesn't have to work, there is no measure to gauge whether it works or not. it wasn't designed to work and nobody cares if it works. As long as it looks like we cared enough to try it's a win in the liberal columns own log. Nobody that thinks like a liberal cares what the "bottom line" says or what the accountants say or what conservatives think. Perhaps nausi, aman and king aren't ever going to understand what a liberal win looks like... Let's try baseball terms. The final score of the game is Team A 15 and Team B 0 and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A lead all stats, strikeouts, bases stole, hitting percentage and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A lead the league in every category imaginable and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A won every game they played up until that game and Team B was the declared the winner. Because Team A has an offensive mascot to native americans and Team B has a fuzzy duck mascot and wears environmentally friendly uniforms so Team B wins. Sorry about your luck Team A, have fun smashing your calculators I don't necassarily agree that anyone who makes a mistake like this on the conservative front gets tha axe right away without question... Edit: also, you make it seem like conservatives just do everything better... and liberals well we tried something nice guys... it may or may not work out... "Heckuva job Brownie" resigned did he not? Now we can argue he did of his own independent will or we can all agree someone tapped him on the shoulder and said "it's time to bow out". The liberal mantra of "oh well we had good intentions" is all over this thread. Those who point out the falsehood of "if you like your plan, you can keep it", is responded to with "well you get better coverage now so it's ok". Conservatives don't advocate their programs will work better because they're conservatives, they argue for less programs because they know government can't really run anything better than you can yourself. So what your saying is in oppostion to what Nik posted? He said the libs let em stay on or step down and pubs just fried em on the spot... you're saying he was allowed to step down and was not fired... soo yeah...
I said I agreed that it was wrong... my only thing was that not all the policies people are being tossed off of are because of legal reasons defined in the ACA... They were reactionary to the ACA... They were not legally required to cancel all the policies that they did but it is and was wrong to make people think they could keep their policies when they couldn't...
Conservatives argue for the programs that benefit them just like dems do... the only thing pubs want to decrease in government is stuff that they're against... I wouldn't mind decreasing the amount we spend on welfare and an assortment of other things but no one wants to get a plan in order to change anything... just give money on one side and take it away on the other...
This bears repeating:
There are two parties, and two ends of the liberal - conservative spectrum. These are different concepts all republicans are not conservatives, there are liberal ones in there too. All democrats don't have to be liberal but I would argue there are very few if not 0 conservative democrats elected today.
Liberalism wants to take control from you. Conservatism wants to give it back to you.
-----------------------------
As far as insurance cancellations are concerned. If company X HAS to cut policies because the government changed the rules, then company X HAS to make sure the remaining policies that it holds continue to keep it running in the black. If Obamacare forces a company to throw off policies that were working perfectly fine before, they have to react to that missing revenue. They could very likely do it by shrugging off higher risk policies in the remaining pool in order to stay in the black the following year.
You continue to blame the players for trying to win the game based on the new rules and not the referee for setting the rules.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-10-31 12:47:42
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »THE BERLIN WALL OF TEXT.
Reagan, Clinton and GWB all had experience as governors and I think it gave them experience in leading large governments that obama is sorely lacking.
Carter was governor of georgia, and no offense to Georgians, the pace of government (and life in general) there is rather slow. I think his hesitation to act swiftly was seen as weakness. Both men also suffered because they hadn't built their organizations through the party, so nobody owed them anything politically and the results were the same.
I agree they all outranked Obama in initial experience but from what we've seen of Obama in term 1, he was able to pass sniff test as President and hasn't made any Carteresque blunders. Do you think because Sarah Palin was governor of Alaska that she was ready to be President? Bush was the Governor of Texas and... we got massive debt caused by two unfunded wars while running tax cuts and setting up an entirely new Department of Homeland Security and the Medicare expansion. So much for that experience as Texas governor with regards to balancing the books.
Benghazi wasn't the Iranian hostage crisis no matter how hard some people want it to be. Obama came in during an economic crisis, was able to bail out and save the auto industry, salvage the housing balloon, weather a number of popup crises in the middle east and get the piece of legislation he wanted passed into law. All in all that is 'success' when half the government effectively stonewalled Obama. It hasn't been the usual political *** either but a fervent obsession with sticking to dogmatic positions while holding anyone who would dare think to be moderate with a primary challenge from a Tea Party wingnut.
Also not sure why'd you deduct points from Carter being governor of Georgia when Clinton ran a smaller state in Arkansas with a smaller GDP. If you want to get into personalities then of course Clinton beats Carter but Clinton is good at the theater of politics like Reagan was.
Term 1 for Obama was a complete success for the private sector and that's all that really mattered.
Quote: GHWB also didn't serve as a governor and suffered many of the same mistakes obama has. He had quite a wealth of experience. But when the ***hit the fan the people he relied on to "fill in the gaps" buckled. Which cost him a second term of course.
Again, not sure what you mean here because it makes no sense. HW was a Texas Congressman, head of the CIA, RNC chairman, Ambassador to China, businessman and the Vice President under Reagan so how much closer to the inner circle do you need to be? Being a governor is a plus in understanding how large government functions but he held damn near every level position you could get gaining as close to real world experience as you're going to get without being president. Who compares to HW Bush on experience? Seriously.
Where HW is similar to Obama is both had to deal with recessions and I'm on the record saying Obama would not be president right now if Romney hadn't waded into social commentary that took the election off the economy and onto binders full of women. Americans cared about the economy, still care about the economy and don't see their wages increasing. Obamas policies have jumpstarted the private sector yet left the public in the dust and the entire governments refusal to do anything for their constituents while greasing every corporate wheel under the sun is the collective problem of today's American politics.
Quote: Obama is an excellent campaign organizer. His primary campaign in 08 was excellent. Let's not gloss over the fact that he even toppled Clinton which was no easy task. I would say it was the tougher fight than the one against McCain.
Because he had young people with databases using science to target his potential voting blocs while the Republicans stuck to old models of capturing their potential voters while committing to being 'unphased by factcheckers' and living in a delusion. How is that business savvy? How is that *** smart at all? Coupled with the increasing message that the Republican party is a white-only party, Republicans have effectively handed Obama and the Democrats large segments of the voting populace unopposed.
Quote: Love them or hate them both Nixon and Reagan brought with them very conservative, pragmatic, goal oriented, results driven staff.
In conservative circles especially in big business there is a lot of focus on past success. You are promoted based on these success and fired just as easily for failure.
And you don't think the Obama administration has qualified staff? Again, the very same policies and people behind the Bush administration are in key posts and many of his hand selected come from the world of high finance and the top private corporations in the world. As far as the business agenda goes, things are swimming along. This isn't some liberal/conservative mindset as you believe.
But don't take my word for it. Look up the backgrounds of all the people in those posts and glance their resumes. Tell me where Obama hired lightweights who aren't equally qualified to his predecessors. Where are the pot smoking liberals too busy wondering what color the sunflower petals really are to do the business of government.
Quote: In the liberal sector, results don't matter. there is no "bottom line" everyone looks to in order to judge your results. It's more about your commitment to the cause or your loyalty to the party or your pedigree.
Yeah... no.
Even if we take your assertion at face value, which I wouldn't, the goal of a bicameral legislature is to provide balance where it is needed and to fine tune legislation. Americans had the chance to shoot down Obamacare when Obama came up for reelection and they did not vote the man out. The Republicans have done nothing but crusade against the law, losing at every turn while millions of Americans remain without health insurance. What is the solution? Stamp your feet and chant 'America's doomed!'? In your portrayal, Republicans are supposed to be hard-nosed, results driven business types right? Well business types get ***done under pragmatic conditions not conduct ideological crusades and protest vote at every turn.
(Isn't that what liberals stereotypically do?)
Quote: But that creates a real problem when it comes to dealing with a situation. Was Hillary Clinton incompetent for her handling of the begahzi crisis or was she just ill equipped to deal with it in the first place having had no experience in such matters.
Again, you're citing experience with Clinton as if she hasn't been surrounded with the best advisers like her predecessors or somehow severely lacked the capacity for the job. She didn't have the experience of a Colin Powell but hell, Powell could have been Presidential material if he didn't lie in front of the UN. Rice and Powell were both NSA advisors, Albright was UN envoy and Clinton was a two-term NY senator who also happened to have the ear of a former president and spent Clintons two terms immersing herself in politics. Benghazi is such an irrelevant blip on the map compared to the diplomatic mess that was the Bush years or even Albrights callous actions in Africa during Rwanda or sanctions in Iraq that led to how many dead? Right, lets keep talking about Benghazi. *whistles*
Quote: In conservative circles she would have been fired but in liberal circles she was allowed to step down.
Yeah, no. The conservatives can't even excise their current liability in the Tea Party extremists and you expect anyone to buy this painting that you're selling? Both parties protect their own, protect their political elite and will fall on the sword only if forced into a corner. Political idolatry has no party exclusivity.
Quote: Now, if a republican like Nixon or Reagan had implemented obamacare they would found the BEST PERSON the most qualified person from the insurance sector to head the operation and if they faltered they would have been very publicly fired.
Nixon implemented the EPA and OSHA, some of the most hated portions of government from our modern Republicans and Reagan implemented an amnesty program. You imagine if that amnesty package passed today? Reagan would have been pilloried. Obamacare is reviled because the political atmosphere has changed into one where a program like Obamacare must fail to establish the current far-right political order. Keep ignoring the fact that its pro-business, gives consumers choices and was once favored by Republicans. Romney-motherfucking-care. Check back in 5 years when Obamacare is completely online, the sky isn't falling and the political skirmishing for the upcoming midterms is over.
Quote: In that regard, Obama doesn't have to worry as much. He already earned the title "The First Black President"
And what has he done as first 'black' president? Nothing any other centrist president wouldn't have done. He's ducked being black for fear of being labeled racist and the community that rallied behind him has come to realize Obama is no different than any other president and he has no intention to do anything for their community. You'll sooner see Hispanics get their shake because at least immigration can be played on the national stage for points in both parties. If the Republicans were as business savvy as you say they are by default, they'd have capitalized on that reality to try drawing black votes to their electorate.
But then again, they can't stop disparaging blacks or anyone not a WASP for that matter. It's like a knee jerk reaction at this point.
Obama will be remembered as the first black president who did nothing for his own people who are still at the bottom of the societal ladder he was in charge of. If MLK and Malcolm X were alive, they'd be excoriating him on a daily basis both as a politician and as the inheritors of their legacies.
Quote: So whether obamacare works or not is irrelevant.
Obamacare is his signature piece of legislation, you're a fool if you think he doesn't care if it fails. Delusional even.
Quote: Third, no one will ever hold him accountable for anything for fear of being branded a racist.
Many people have critcized the president already, including numerous noted liberals and scholars. Give me a break. What you mean is the media networks won't criticize him for fear of racism or the people in the tank for Obama already don't want Americans to see how similar Obama is to Bush and how similar Democrats are to Republicans. Obama is on the record as a tower of Bush policies who has avoided open war but has coddled and embraced secret, underhanded war through the NSA and drones.
Quote: The right can scream and tear their hair out all they want. Obama will never be impeached or held accountable for his mistakes. Period.
By conservative measures he was doomed to fail from the jump because he doesn't have what it takes to be president in the first place.
And obama knows he isn't going to win any of those people over anyways.
No one in government will ever be held accountable because we exist in a justice system where only peons get imprisoned. Leaders will skate by, pardoned by their successors and so the cycle continues. Wall Street can rape the economy and what we get in return is victim blaming all while the common folk are rounded up, beaten, penned and throw behind bars to feed the prison economy. Any wrongdoing by the elite is seen as necessary evil and any wrongdoing by citizens is a grave offense against the United States.
The idea you think that somehow Republicans run the country like a business and hold accountability up as the standard of their policies is laughable considering how recent Bush II was. Your attempts to narrow down two huge political ideologies into a sound byte is simply dishonest. [/spoiler]
How so?
Edit: give me a week and I will get back to you on the rest of it lol
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 12:49:14
Great Text Wall of China!!! My eyes are bleeding.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-10-31 12:56:34
Great Text Wall of China!!! My eyes are bleeding. YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 12:56:53
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »THE BERLIN WALL OF TEXT.
Reagan, Clinton and GWB all had experience as governors and I think it gave them experience in leading large governments that obama is sorely lacking.
Carter was governor of georgia, and no offense to Georgians, the pace of government (and life in general) there is rather slow. I think his hesitation to act swiftly was seen as weakness. Both men also suffered because they hadn't built their organizations through the party, so nobody owed them anything politically and the results were the same.
I agree they all outranked Obama in initial experience but from what we've seen of Obama in term 1, he was able to pass sniff test as President and hasn't made any Carteresque blunders. Do you think because Sarah Palin was governor of Alaska that she was ready to be President? Bush was the Governor of Texas and... we got massive debt caused by two unfunded wars while running tax cuts and setting up an entirely new Department of Homeland Security and the Medicare expansion. So much for that experience as Texas governor with regards to balancing the books.
Benghazi wasn't the Iranian hostage crisis no matter how hard some people want it to be. Obama came in during an economic crisis, was able to bail out and save the auto industry, salvage the housing balloon, weather a number of popup crises in the middle east and get the piece of legislation he wanted passed into law. All in all that is 'success' when half the government effectively stonewalled Obama. It hasn't been the usual political *** either but a fervent obsession with sticking to dogmatic positions while holding anyone who would dare think to be moderate with a primary challenge from a Tea Party wingnut.
Also not sure why'd you deduct points from Carter being governor of Georgia when Clinton ran a smaller state in Arkansas with a smaller GDP. If you want to get into personalities then of course Clinton beats Carter but Clinton is good at the theater of politics like Reagan was.
Term 1 for Obama was a complete success for the private sector and that's all that really mattered.
Quote: GHWB also didn't serve as a governor and suffered many of the same mistakes obama has. He had quite a wealth of experience. But when the ***hit the fan the people he relied on to "fill in the gaps" buckled. Which cost him a second term of course.
Again, not sure what you mean here because it makes no sense. HW was a Texas Congressman, head of the CIA, RNC chairman, Ambassador to China, businessman and the Vice President under Reagan so how much closer to the inner circle do you need to be? Being a governor is a plus in understanding how large government functions but he held damn near every level position you could get gaining as close to real world experience as you're going to get without being president. Who compares to HW Bush on experience? Seriously.
Where HW is similar to Obama is both had to deal with recessions and I'm on the record saying Obama would not be president right now if Romney hadn't waded into social commentary that took the election off the economy and onto binders full of women. Americans cared about the economy, still care about the economy and don't see their wages increasing. Obamas policies have jumpstarted the private sector yet left the public in the dust and the entire governments refusal to do anything for their constituents while greasing every corporate wheel under the sun is the collective problem of today's American politics.
Quote: Obama is an excellent campaign organizer. His primary campaign in 08 was excellent. Let's not gloss over the fact that he even toppled Clinton which was no easy task. I would say it was the tougher fight than the one against McCain.
Because he had young people with databases using science to target his potential voting blocs while the Republicans stuck to old models of capturing their potential voters while committing to being 'unphased by factcheckers' and living in a delusion. How is that business savvy? How is that *** smart at all? Coupled with the increasing message that the Republican party is a white-only party, Republicans have effectively handed Obama and the Democrats large segments of the voting populace unopposed.
Quote: Love them or hate them both Nixon and Reagan brought with them very conservative, pragmatic, goal oriented, results driven staff.
In conservative circles especially in big business there is a lot of focus on past success. You are promoted based on these success and fired just as easily for failure.
And you don't think the Obama administration has qualified staff? Again, the very same policies and people behind the Bush administration are in key posts and many of his hand selected come from the world of high finance and the top private corporations in the world. As far as the business agenda goes, things are swimming along. This isn't some liberal/conservative mindset as you believe.
But don't take my word for it. Look up the backgrounds of all the people in those posts and glance their resumes. Tell me where Obama hired lightweights who aren't equally qualified to his predecessors. Where are the pot smoking liberals too busy wondering what color the sunflower petals really are to do the business of government.
Quote: In the liberal sector, results don't matter. there is no "bottom line" everyone looks to in order to judge your results. It's more about your commitment to the cause or your loyalty to the party or your pedigree.
Yeah... no.
Even if we take your assertion at face value, which I wouldn't, the goal of a bicameral legislature is to provide balance where it is needed and to fine tune legislation. Americans had the chance to shoot down Obamacare when Obama came up for reelection and they did not vote the man out. The Republicans have done nothing but crusade against the law, losing at every turn while millions of Americans remain without health insurance. What is the solution? Stamp your feet and chant 'America's doomed!'? In your portrayal, Republicans are supposed to be hard-nosed, results driven business types right? Well business types get ***done under pragmatic conditions not conduct ideological crusades and protest vote at every turn.
(Isn't that what liberals stereotypically do?)
Quote: But that creates a real problem when it comes to dealing with a situation. Was Hillary Clinton incompetent for her handling of the begahzi crisis or was she just ill equipped to deal with it in the first place having had no experience in such matters.
Again, you're citing experience with Clinton as if she hasn't been surrounded with the best advisers like her predecessors or somehow severely lacked the capacity for the job. She didn't have the experience of a Colin Powell but hell, Powell could have been Presidential material if he didn't lie in front of the UN. Rice and Powell were both NSA advisors, Albright was UN envoy and Clinton was a two-term NY senator who also happened to have the ear of a former president and spent Clintons two terms immersing herself in politics. Benghazi is such an irrelevant blip on the map compared to the diplomatic mess that was the Bush years or even Albrights callous actions in Africa during Rwanda or sanctions in Iraq that led to how many dead? Right, lets keep talking about Benghazi. *whistles*
Quote: In conservative circles she would have been fired but in liberal circles she was allowed to step down.
Yeah, no. The conservatives can't even excise their current liability in the Tea Party extremists and you expect anyone to buy this painting that you're selling? Both parties protect their own, protect their political elite and will fall on the sword only if forced into a corner. Political idolatry has no party exclusivity.
Quote: Now, if a republican like Nixon or Reagan had implemented obamacare they would found the BEST PERSON the most qualified person from the insurance sector to head the operation and if they faltered they would have been very publicly fired.
Nixon implemented the EPA and OSHA, some of the most hated portions of government from our modern Republicans and Reagan implemented an amnesty program. You imagine if that amnesty package passed today? Reagan would have been pilloried. Obamacare is reviled because the political atmosphere has changed into one where a program like Obamacare must fail to establish the current far-right political order. Keep ignoring the fact that its pro-business, gives consumers choices and was once favored by Republicans. Romney-motherfucking-care. Check back in 5 years when Obamacare is completely online, the sky isn't falling and the political skirmishing for the upcoming midterms is over.
Quote: In that regard, Obama doesn't have to worry as much. He already earned the title "The First Black President"
And what has he done as first 'black' president? Nothing any other centrist president wouldn't have done. He's ducked being black for fear of being labeled racist and the community that rallied behind him has come to realize Obama is no different than any other president and he has no intention to do anything for their community. You'll sooner see Hispanics get their shake because at least immigration can be played on the national stage for points in both parties. If the Republicans were as business savvy as you say they are by default, they'd have capitalized on that reality to try drawing black votes to their electorate.
But then again, they can't stop disparaging blacks or anyone not a WASP for that matter. It's like a knee jerk reaction at this point.
Obama will be remembered as the first black president who did nothing for his own people who are still at the bottom of the societal ladder he was in charge of. If MLK and Malcolm X were alive, they'd be excoriating him on a daily basis both as a politician and as the inheritors of their legacies.
Quote: So whether obamacare works or not is irrelevant.
Obamacare is his signature piece of legislation, you're a fool if you think he doesn't care if it fails. Delusional even.
Quote: Third, no one will ever hold him accountable for anything for fear of being branded a racist.
Many people have critcized the president already, including numerous noted liberals and scholars. Give me a break. What you mean is the media networks won't criticize him for fear of racism or the people in the tank for Obama already don't want Americans to see how similar Obama is to Bush and how similar Democrats are to Republicans. Obama is on the record as a tower of Bush policies who has avoided open war but has coddled and embraced secret, underhanded war through the NSA and drones.
Quote: The right can scream and tear their hair out all they want. Obama will never be impeached or held accountable for his mistakes. Period.
By conservative measures he was doomed to fail from the jump because he doesn't have what it takes to be president in the first place.
And obama knows he isn't going to win any of those people over anyways.
No one in government will ever be held accountable because we exist in a justice system where only peons get imprisoned. Leaders will skate by, pardoned by their successors and so the cycle continues. Wall Street can rape the economy and what we get in return is victim blaming all while the common folk are rounded up, beaten, penned and throw behind bars to feed the prison economy. Any wrongdoing by the elite is seen as necessary evil and any wrongdoing by citizens is a grave offense against the United States.
The idea you think that somehow Republicans run the country like a business and hold accountability up as the standard of their policies is laughable considering how recent Bush II was. Your attempts to narrow down two huge political ideologies into a sound byte is simply dishonest. [/spoiler]
How so?
Edit: give me a week and I will get back to you on the rest of it lol It would take way too long to respond, but this is a summary of it:
I don't like your opinion.
[+]
Server: Lakshmi
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-10-31 12:58:06
Congrats, you just summed up this 92 page behemoth.
I award you the Nobel Peace Prize. Now please, get to solving Israel/Palestine, for all our sakes.
Siren.Flavin
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Posts: 4155
By Siren.Flavin 2013-10-31 13:02:37
I don't necassarily agree that anyone who makes a mistake like this on the conservative front gets tha axe right away without question... There is certainly nepotism among conservatives, sure. But Nixon was brutal and Reagan was no slouch either in that department. he fired 11,000 air traffic controllers without batting an eyelash. Nopotism is rampant among the government... I especially feel that sting sharply here in Illinois... but you make it seem like the conservative front is about nothing but results and mistakes are met either with swift punishment or termination... that's just not how it works... politics in general is covering peoples *** until you can't do it anymore... then you make apologies and hope some other scandal or tradgey hits so people forget about it or you do end up getting rid of em... pubs and dems aren't much different in that respect... I don't think we need to do either extremes in my honest opinion. First off, if you are hired to do a job, you better well know how to do it. If it shows you don't know how to do your job, then you need to be replaced. Secondly, if you are showing progress, and something happens beyond your own control, then you shouldn't have to be asked to step down or get canned. I'll even go a little further and say some small portion of ineptness would be allowed if your actual benefit for the government is that much greater than the liability you caused on a small number of times. If the overall benefit outweighs the liability of a few mistakes, then why should I fire you? Just don't let those liabilities increase. I don't get the whole liberal loyalist idea that, if you are loyal to the guy up top and swear your everlasting allegiance of the liberal party of America, you deserve a spot that many people are more qualified to hold. Why not put your best people in the best positions? What's wrong with that? The reason shes in office isn't due to loyalty... I touched on part of the reason a page back...
Edit: also, it isn't that she doesn't know how to do her job... it's that she failed on getting the ACA rollout to go smoothly... This isn't the only facet of her job...
Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2013-10-31 13:04:28
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Congrats, you just summed up this 92 page behemoth.
I award you the Nobel Peace Prize. Now please, get to solving Israel/Palestine, for all our sakes.
Nuke Palestine, problem solved!
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:08:25
Could we stop conflating the healthcare.gov insurance plan exchange website (an over glorified Travelocity made by a Canadian firm that was fired by the government of Canada for sucking) with the actual roll out of the ACA?
They are two very different things.
If the actual ACA roll out was shoddy KingNobody wouldn't have had updates to his precious IRC.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:09:05
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Congrats, you just summed up this 92 page behemoth.
I award you the Nobel Peace Prize. Now please, get to solving Israel/Palestine, for all our sakes.
Nuke Palestine, problem solved! Screw that, I'll go full Nikolce and take over the world. Execute anyone who disagree with me or has a (D) next to their name. That will solve most of the world's problems in a heartbeat.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:10:13
If the actual ACA roll out was shoddy KingNobody wouldn't have had updates to his precious IRC. Naw, just worthless rules and regulations that we have been receiving....oh wai..
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:10:22
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Congrats, you just summed up this 92 page behemoth.
I award you the Nobel Peace Prize. Now please, get to solving Israel/Palestine, for all our sakes.
Nuke Palestine, problem solved! Screw that, I'll go full Nikolce and take over the world. Execute anyone who disagree with me or has a (D) next to their name. That will solve most of the world's problems in a heartbeat.
And this is why nobody wants you to have an ounce of authority. But it does explain everything about the tone of 99.99% of your posts from yesterday.
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Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-10-31 13:10:38
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Carter is the best post-Presidential President we've had. He wasn't a very good president but I'd be lying if I didn't like the man as a person. Obama, the first black president of the united states. a wild rambling analysis that nobody has time for. Reagan, Clinton and GWB all had experience as governors and I think it gave them experience in leading large governments that obama is sorely lacking. GHWB also didn't serve as a governor and suffered many of the same mistakes obama has. He had quite a wealth of experience. But when the ***hit the fan the people he relied on to "fill in the gaps" buckled. Which cost him a second term of course. Carter was governor of georgia, and no offense to Georgians, the pace of government (and life in general) there is rather slow. I think his hesitation to act swiftly was seen as weakness. Both men also suffered because they hadn't built their organizations through the party, so nobody owed them anything politically and the results were the same. In the plus column Obama is an excellent campaign organizer. His primary campaign in 08 was excellent. Let's not gloss over the fact that he even toppled Clinton which was no easy task. I would say it was the tougher fight than the one against McCain. But when it comes to the nuts and bolts of actually running a government, he just does't have the skill set. He tried to not make the same mistakes as Carter and instead mend the fences broken during the primary fights but the people he relied on to help him run the country (Hillary Clinton is a fine example)were looking out for themselves and not his best interest. The word "Incompetence" is thrown around a lot but I think it's more of a lack of experience and poor choices at key leadership positions. Love them or hate them both Nixon and Reagan brought with them very conservative, pragmatic, goal oriented, results driven staff. In conservative circles especially in big business there is a lot of focus on past success. You are promoted based on these success and fired just as easily for failure. In the liberal sector, results don't matter. there is no "bottom line" everyone looks to in order to judge your results. It's more about your commitment to the cause or your loyalty to the party or your pedigree. But that creates a real problem when it comes to dealing with a situation. Was Hillary Clinton incompetent for her handling of the begahzi crisis or was she just ill equipped to deal with it in the first place having had no experience in such matters. In conservative circles she would have been fired but in liberal circles she was allowed to step down. Now, if a republican like Nixon or Reagan had implemented obamacare they would found the BEST PERSON the most qualified person from the insurance sector to head the operation and if they faltered they would have been very publicly fired. Liberals don't work that way. There is always a second chance there is always room for improvement it's not the do or die world of corporate profits... it's the feel good world of intentions. That's government.. Ok so then how did Bill Clinton get some of the things right that obama still hasn't picked up on. And the answer is he hired some very "mean" people to do the dirty work for him. Look at James Carville. Clinton had other priorities, let's say, but he left the "work" to some very ambitious people. He was also very concerned about his legacy. In that regard, Obama doesn't have to worry as much. He already earned the title "The First Black President" So whether obamacare works or not is irrelevant. First, in liberal circles results don't matter nearly as much as intentions Second, He already has his place in the history books sewn up. Third, no one will ever hold him accountable for anything for fear of being branded a racist. He's got it in the bag. it's screwed glued and tattooed. The right can scream and tear their hair out all they want. Obama will never be impeached or held accountable for his mistakes. Period. By conservative measures he was doomed to fail from the jump because he doesn't have what it takes to be president in the first place. And obama knows he isn't going to win any of those people over anyways. It's a fundamental difference in philosophy. pragmatic vs idealistic. obama won when he beat hillary. conservatives are still scratching their heads looking at red and black numbers on a spreadsheet and failing to understand. He won when he beat her, he doesn't even care about them or clingers or birthers or tea partiers... Was Kathleen Sebelius the best choice to head health and human services? Well that depends on who you ask. She was governor of kansas, she paid her dues politically, she comes from a political family. So in liberal circles, yes. Has she ever built a website or worked in insurance? No. So in conservative circles was she the best person to run obamacare, No. do liberals care what conservatives think about her qualifications, No. Will she be fired? No. Will she step down or be moved around? Maybe. She made the boss look bad. If she worked for nixon she would be in stocks on the white house lawn getting pelted with tomatoes and never work in this town again. But she works Obama, so she will be praised for her dedication and loyalty. Obamacare won't work because it doesn't have to work, there is no measure to gauge whether it works or not. it wasn't designed to work and nobody cares if it works. As long as it looks like we cared enough to try it's a win in the liberal columns own log. Nobody that thinks like a liberal cares what the "bottom line" says or what the accountants say or what conservatives think. Perhaps nausi, aman and king aren't ever going to understand what a liberal win looks like... Let's try baseball terms. The final score of the game is Team A 15 and Team B 0 and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A lead all stats, strikeouts, bases stole, hitting percentage and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A lead the league in every category imaginable and Team B was the declared the winner. Team A won every game they played up until that game and Team B was the declared the winner. Because Team A has an offensive mascot to native americans and Team B has a fuzzy duck mascot and wears environmentally friendly uniforms so Team B wins. Sorry about your luck Team A, have fun smashing your calculators I don't necassarily agree that anyone who makes a mistake like this on the conservative front gets tha axe right away without question... Edit: also, you make it seem like conservatives just do everything better... and liberals well we tried something nice guys... it may or may not work out... "Heckuva job Brownie" resigned did he not? Now we can argue he did of his own independent will or we can all agree someone tapped him on the shoulder and said "it's time to bow out". The liberal mantra of "oh well we had good intentions" is all over this thread. Those who point out the falsehood of "if you like your plan, you can keep it", is responded to with "well you get better coverage now so it's ok". Conservatives don't advocate their programs will work better because they're conservatives, they argue for less programs because they know government can't really run anything better than you can yourself. So what your saying is in oppostion to what Nik posted? He said the libs let em stay on or step down and pubs just fried em on the spot... you're saying he was allowed to step down and was not fired... soo yeah... I said I agreed that it was wrong... my only thing was that not all the policies people are being tossed off of are because of legal reasons defined in the ACA... They were reactionary to the ACA... They were not legally required to cancel all the policies that they did but it is and was wrong to make people think they could keep their policies when they couldn't... Conservatives argue for the programs that benefit them just like dems do... the only thing pubs want to decrease in government is stuff that they're against... I wouldn't mind decreasing the amount we spend on welfare and an assortment of other things but no one wants to get a plan in order to change anything... just give money on one side and take it away on the other... This bears repeating: There are two parties, and two ends of the liberal - conservative spectrum. These are different concepts all republicans are not conservatives, there are liberal ones in there too. All democrats don't have to be liberal but I would argue there are very few if not 0 conservative democrats elected today. Liberalism wants to take control from you. Conservatism wants to give it back to you. ----------------------------- As far as insurance cancellations are concerned. If company X HAS to cut policies because the government changed the rules, then company X HAS to make sure the remaining policies that it holds continue to keep it running in the black. If Obamacare forces a company to throw off policies that were working perfectly fine before, they have to react to that missing revenue. They could very likely do it by shrugging off higher risk policies in the remaining pool in order to stay in the black the following year. You continue to blame the players for trying to win the game based on the new rules and not the referee for setting the rules. Conservatives look to their own agenda... it truly isn't all about giving the reins back to the people... they still try to limit what you can do based on their own moral system and nothing else... so just stop...
As for insurance coverage you're operating off the fals assumption that they need to get rid of these policies to remain in the black... you're just wrong... I work in the industry and I see it with my own eyes... they're using it as an opportunity to go farther into the black... It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't blame it on the ACA and use that as their smokescreen... but just like the government they like to hide behind smokescreens to avoid to much attention and deflect as much of it as you can elsewhere lol... You're working completely off assumptions here though... you don't even know if these companies you're defending are in the black or red or why they're making the decisions they do... you just think the ACA is terrible and work off that assumption applying that to every argument... no corporations are doing anything shady! it is on Obama and his nation destroying healthcare system!
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-10-31 13:11:01
I still wanna know why the ACA and exchanges were created by a Republican think tank and adopted by a former presidential candidate in his state if they were such anathema.
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Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-10-31 13:11:14
Didn't I hear the pub running for governor was trying to outlaw oral sex? lol...
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Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:12:43
Didn't I hear the pub running for governor was trying to outlaw oral sex? lol...
Ken Cuccinelli of Virginia.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-10-31 13:12:55
Let me break it down for you...
1.) Clinton was a better politician than carter, no offense to either of them. Arkansas politics are a lot meaner than georgia (at the time they were both serving)
2.) GHWB had a wealth of experience but not in running a state. Which I think is crucial in his inability to juggle foreign and domestic affairs at the same time.
3.) Obama kicked Hillary's *** and she had the same advantages he had.
that he won against McCain wasn't the climax of the movie.
4.) Nixon hired thugs! There isn't anyone in the obama administration that has balls like g gordan liddy. They don't hardly make them like him any more...
5.)Powell would have done a better job. Period. She wasn't the best person for the job.
6.)Refer to what happened to "brownie" he disappeared off the face of the earth
7.)historically speaking, we will see who is right in ten years
8.) I don't think there is anything obama could do that would overshadow the first black president accomplishment or undermine it.
it works both ways.
9.)Bush II wasn't a conservative.
10.) conservatives think of everything like it's a business with accounting books and stock prices. up is good, down is bad, the business of america is business, I don't think that's dishonest
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-10-31 13:14:24
Didn't I hear the pub running for governor was trying to outlaw oral sex? lol...
Sounds like a protest is in order. Who's ready to receive a *** then go to jail? Nothing like a little civil disobedience.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:14:38
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »Congrats, you just summed up this 92 page behemoth.
I award you the Nobel Peace Prize. Now please, get to solving Israel/Palestine, for all our sakes.
Nuke Palestine, problem solved! Screw that, I'll go full Nikolce and take over the world. Execute anyone who disagree with me or has a (D) next to their name. That will solve most of the world's problems in a heartbeat. And this is why nobody wants you to have an ounce of authority. But it does explain everything about the tone of 99.99% of your posts from yesterday. Did I forget the sarcasm tag again? Damn it.
Ok, so that was sarcasm, I thought that was obvious enough for even you to realize, but I guess not...
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:15:43
Wow.. I thought I wouldn't need a sarcasm tag for that post.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:16:41
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I still wanna know why the ACA and exchanges were created by a Republican think tank and adopted by a former presidential candidate in his state if they were such anathema. Because of the size of those affected and the ability for those who didn't want it to be able to leave.
It is much harder to leave the USA than it is to leave MA.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:17:32
Wow.. I thought I wouldn't need a sarcasm tag for that post. Well, I sometimes forget who I'm talking to. I'll try to dumb it down for you next time.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:18:59
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »I still wanna know why the ACA and exchanges were created by a Republican think tank and adopted by a former presidential candidate in his state if they were such anathema. Because of the size of those affected and the ability for those who didn't want it to be able to leave.
It is much harder to leave the USA than it is to leave MA.
I believe he is refering to the fact that Obama totally took the ACA from the Heritage Foundation's "Bob Dole Care" and spiced it up with a hint of Romneycare.
It's like people forget this health care reform was a platform the Repbulicans stood on in opposition to HillaryCare which was employer provided health care.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2013-10-31 13:19:29
Wow.. I thought I wouldn't need a sarcasm tag for that post. Well, I sometimes forget who I'm talking to. I'll try to dumb it down for you next time.
sounds like you need some of this:
I was referring to my post about nobody wanting you to have an ounce of power not needing to have a sarcasm tag. But sometimes I forget "what" I am talking to
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-10-31 13:21:58
Didn't I hear the pub running for governor was trying to outlaw oral sex? lol... Ken Cuccinelli of Virginia. Conservatives... working to give you control back... by controlling your sex life... You better not be wearing a condom!
Pubs are just a different kind of ridiculous...
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2013-10-31 13:22:41
10.) conservatives think of everything like it's a business with accounting books and stock prices. up is good, down is bad, the business of america is business, I don't think that's dishonest
So more crony capitalism, corporate bailouts and warmongering. Got it.
Both Republicans and Democrats are business-oriented. Healthcare for citizens being such a huge source of contention when we blew billions on wars we lost is hilarious in how out of touch the country has become.
Billions on death but *** programs that promote life. It's no wonder our education system is going downhill, our priorities are in fine order.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2013-10-31 13:23:03
Wow.. I thought I wouldn't need a sarcasm tag for that post. Well, I sometimes forget who I'm talking to. I'll try to dumb it down for you next time.
sounds like you need some of this:
Sounds like you got plenty to give to me.
How much for 1?
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-10-31 13:23:53
Wow.. I thought I wouldn't need a sarcasm tag for that post. Well, I sometimes forget who I'm talking to. I'll try to dumb it down for you next time.
sounds like you need some of this:
I need the adult strength formula :(
<-old
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Some people just like to watch the world burn...
I am one of them... So excuse my while I perform the end zone touchdown dance of my people.
/dances like an old white guy at a wedding
Happy Shut Down Day Everybody!!! Enjoy trying to figure out what impact not having a government will have on your miserable lives. Muhahahahahahahaha! Tell 'em chuck!
YouTube Video Placeholder
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
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