I am a nub Paladin. I only leveled it when working towards Maat's cap.
I don't have an Aegis or an Ochain and I am curious, can the Steadfast Shield work as a "poor man's" shield for Delve content? I'm not really looking for opinions, I'd like some hard facts as to whether or not this shield is viable (get into groups) or not so I know if I need to put forth the time to gear up my Paladin or just focus my attention elsewhere.
Any factual input would be greatly appreciated.
Steadfast Shield
Steadfast Shield
I've had Paladins survive just fine with it while tanking 3 Delve NMs (scorp, butterflies, forgot next one) while I was solo healing them on my extremely gimped WHM (read, no AF3+2, some teal gear still).
It's your best option outside of Aegis and Ochain, but you'll never be asked to tank something that couldn't be just as adequately dealt with by someone repeatedly dying. It's a fair step down from either shield in physical mitigation, and obviously pales in comparison to Aegis for magic
Would've been an amazing shield if Aegis and Ochain hadn't been so easy to get.
A PLD isn't a PLD anymore without an Aegis or Ochain. It's sad, but true. (I was main PLD for like 8 years and now mine is useless for this reason.)
A PLD isn't a PLD anymore without an Aegis or Ochain. It's sad, but true. (I was main PLD for like 8 years and now mine is useless for this reason.)
[+]
anyone test it yet for block rate? ive heard from some peoples small sample testing that they broke the 65% block rate (it went to around 80%) which following the rest of the delve gear trend wouldnt be hard to believe
It may get you into runs that you, your friends or LS make and could work as a back up tank. Or just a Reive pld, But you will need alot of PD/MD to make up for the lacking shield.
In all honesty no one doing a run will take any shield over a aegis/ochain. Unless your a sac or back up tank.
Even if the shield has potential there is no lack of R/E shields so no one will turn down a aegis/ochain pld.
Specially seeing ochain incredible block rate makes PD a joke and aegis eating LoL Aga IV spells for 150 dmg.
If you want to Pld make a R/E shield cuz you wont get much action w/o one as you will always be 2nd best, and turned down or rep for a aegis/ochain.
Sell the Elixers you would use for the sheild and put them towards ochain or Aegis.
In all honesty no one doing a run will take any shield over a aegis/ochain. Unless your a sac or back up tank.
Even if the shield has potential there is no lack of R/E shields so no one will turn down a aegis/ochain pld.
Specially seeing ochain incredible block rate makes PD a joke and aegis eating LoL Aga IV spells for 150 dmg.
If you want to Pld make a R/E shield cuz you wont get much action w/o one as you will always be 2nd best, and turned down or rep for a aegis/ochain.
Sell the Elixers you would use for the sheild and put them towards ochain or Aegis.
groups get desperate after alittle shouting, do good once with any shield and get a rep as a good pld and youll be set
Ragnarok.Zeromega said: »
anyone test it yet for block rate? ive heard from some peoples small sample testing that they broke the 65% block rate (it went to around 80%) which following the rest of the delve gear trend wouldnt be hard to believe
Aegis and Ochain have unique shield sizes, Thus unique block rates. I think it's pretty unlikely that this shield has an 80% block rate normally(Under reprisal and palisade on fodder maybe, but that's true of nearly any shield.)
Also, consider. While SE said they'd upgrade relic/mythic/emp, the also said they would NOT upgrade Shields/harp/horn. As they were still the best.
That being said, I do still think it should be tested. And I'd have done it already, but the delve NPC wasn't there on the test last time I looked(anyone checked more recently?) And I'm not blowing my plasym on the real servers for a shield that'd go right into storage after testing.
Block rate and damage reduction weren't atypical. You can peek into my posting history if you'd care for the source, but it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone
One less thing for me to test. ^^
Yea I read that yesterday before I made this post. I was just curious if there had been any other tests done. I'm currently in an argument with LS mates in regards to if getting this shield would allow me to join delves in the paladin tank role, hence the nature of this post. Our LS does not have a "real paladin" so we were looking into the usefulness of this shield since no one has an Aegis or Ochain.
This is why I was asking for hard facts, instead of opinions. I am curious to know if it's just elitism that keeps this shield from being viable or if numbers can back that statement up. As I said, never been a Paladin before aside from LoLAbyssea EXP, so other A/O Paladins' input is highly sought after.
This is why I was asking for hard facts, instead of opinions. I am curious to know if it's just elitism that keeps this shield from being viable or if numbers can back that statement up. As I said, never been a Paladin before aside from LoLAbyssea EXP, so other A/O Paladins' input is highly sought after.
You're not a viable tank against Fracture bosses without Aegis at minimum, and not having Ochain is a significant enough step down that you may as well have a sturdy melee taking physical hits.
thank you for the info ill take you all at your word rather than blowing 30k plasm myself, have the coins to get to st3 on shield but holding for now
I parsed Steadfast Shield compared to an Iron Ram Shield. I took hits from the Mandragoras outside Adoulin for these tests. I only cast Protect 5 on myself and used no other abilities while testing.
I had ~730 defense, 40% pdt and 442 shield skill during my tests.
From 350 samples with the Iron Ram Shield, I blocked 41%. The relatively small sample size means this is within margin of error for approximately 40% block rate which is what I suspect I have with this shield.
350 samples later with the Steadfast shield, my block rate was 48%, also within margin of error for a 50% block rate so I'm suspecting block rate of Steadfast is around 10% higher than size 3 shields.
In addition to this, blocked hits from Steadfast ranged from 0-5 damage while blocked hits from the Iron Ram Shield ranged from 4-15.
In conclusion, I'm certain Steadfast outperforms standard size 3 shields. I'm suspecting the "size" is similar to Aegis but I don't have that shield to compare against so that is just conjecture. Someone feel like testing with similar stats to me with it against the mandys outside Adoulin and compare the results?
Addendum: I also realize it's not really fair to compare a level 40 AH shield to a level 99 RA/EX shield but I just wanted a cheap normal size 3 shield to compare block rates with.
I had ~730 defense, 40% pdt and 442 shield skill during my tests.
From 350 samples with the Iron Ram Shield, I blocked 41%. The relatively small sample size means this is within margin of error for approximately 40% block rate which is what I suspect I have with this shield.
350 samples later with the Steadfast shield, my block rate was 48%, also within margin of error for a 50% block rate so I'm suspecting block rate of Steadfast is around 10% higher than size 3 shields.
In addition to this, blocked hits from Steadfast ranged from 0-5 damage while blocked hits from the Iron Ram Shield ranged from 4-15.
In conclusion, I'm certain Steadfast outperforms standard size 3 shields. I'm suspecting the "size" is similar to Aegis but I don't have that shield to compare against so that is just conjecture. Someone feel like testing with similar stats to me with it against the mandys outside Adoulin and compare the results?
Addendum: I also realize it's not really fair to compare a level 40 AH shield to a level 99 RA/EX shield but I just wanted a cheap normal size 3 shield to compare block rates with.
That's what I was hoping to find from this post. Hopefully, someone with an Aegis and/or Ochain to compare to Steadfast with numbers, maybe even actual Delve experience with Steadfast on. And I don't mean wearing a Steadfast when you're the sacker and saying "it works wonders" like I had someone tell me ingame... -.-'
VT chigoe in Foret.
Shield skill from gear was af3+2 helm, Boxer's Mantle (cuz iono), and from the shield itself, for total of +27, and shield merits obviously. Rest was pdt set.
No JA/spells were used besides Phalanx.
396 hits total, 192 unblocked, 204 blocked
51.5% block rate in this sample.
Their crits during blocked hits, when they managed to break phalanx, were never over single digit. Usually about 100-120 crits unblocked.
Shield skill from gear was af3+2 helm, Boxer's Mantle (cuz iono), and from the shield itself, for total of +27, and shield merits obviously. Rest was pdt set.
No JA/spells were used besides Phalanx.
396 hits total, 192 unblocked, 204 blocked
51.5% block rate in this sample.
Their crits during blocked hits, when they managed to break phalanx, were never over single digit. Usually about 100-120 crits unblocked.
I used a Steadfast shield to hold fracture NM's for my LS before I got an Ochain. I've even tanked all 5 nm's for about 10 minutes before my WHM ran out of mp. I'd say 50% block rate on Steadfast is being generous. I could not reliably cure myself due to interruptions, and my whitemage's MP pool suffered because of that and the extra damage from unblocked hits. If you don't have an Aegis or an Ochain then this is the next best alternative, but it is still significantly less useful than the other two.
One strategy with Steadfast shield in Delve would be to /sch if you are Supertanking. With Celerity active you can get Reprisal recast times down far enough that you would have it up quite often and could use Palasade/Sentinel when you don't, but you lose the ability to cure yourself if you normally /dnc and the defense boosts from /war.
One strategy with Steadfast shield in Delve would be to /sch if you are Supertanking. With Celerity active you can get Reprisal recast times down far enough that you would have it up quite often and could use Palasade/Sentinel when you don't, but you lose the ability to cure yourself if you normally /dnc and the defense boosts from /war.
[+]
It's not generous, it's ... what happened? Unless mathematical tallies can be generous. I invite suggestions on the test method conditions, as misinformation never helped anyone, and help is what I'm trying to do.
Now for more math:
EP chigoes in Azouph isle, with the intention of almost certainly capping block rate. I like chigoes cuz of their generous attack, that creates good gaps in blocked and unblocked dmg, and their generous attack speed.
I watched every attack in the log. No unblocked attack ever hit 0 (100% were double digit), and the only blocked attacks that were ever not 0, were crits. Can share the screenshots if handsomely rewarded.
No pdt gear (mostly DD or idle set gear), no buffs at all. Same 3 pieces of shield skill gear.
For this one, I did a 2nd set of hits, to get a larger sample size, to confirm what follows:
512 attacks total. 94 unblocked. 418 blocked.
81.6% block rate this sample (up from 77.1% in the first 271 hits). No really; pics and it did happen.
I invite anyone to recreate the conditions or suggest better ones. So far, evidence suggests the block rate to be unusually high.
Now for more math:
EP chigoes in Azouph isle, with the intention of almost certainly capping block rate. I like chigoes cuz of their generous attack, that creates good gaps in blocked and unblocked dmg, and their generous attack speed.
I watched every attack in the log. No unblocked attack ever hit 0 (100% were double digit), and the only blocked attacks that were ever not 0, were crits. Can share the screenshots if handsomely rewarded.
No pdt gear (mostly DD or idle set gear), no buffs at all. Same 3 pieces of shield skill gear.
For this one, I did a 2nd set of hits, to get a larger sample size, to confirm what follows:
512 attacks total. 94 unblocked. 418 blocked.
81.6% block rate this sample (up from 77.1% in the first 271 hits). No really; pics and it did happen.
I invite anyone to recreate the conditions or suggest better ones. So far, evidence suggests the block rate to be unusually high.
Same 3 pieces of shield skill? is that including a reduction for the +10 steadfast shield has on it? If you are keeping the same 3 + steadast you are gaining more shield skill that will throw off results than if you used a shield w/o. When im in my hybrid PDT/MDT/DT/Shield skill set my Aegis blocks a lot more often than w/o it on fracture bosses. I doubt they made steadfast have a unique size so that 80% on lower level mobs could very well just be the high shield skill kicking in.
theres a nice test here http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/114547-Random-Question-Thread?p=5746680&viewfull=1#post5746680
About 50% block
Delve shield is really good. Lots of people likes to assume/ post random crap with no information on this forums like they are butthurt or something.
About 50% block
Delve shield is really good. Lots of people likes to assume/ post random crap with no information on this forums like they are butthurt or something.
Odin.Creaucent said: »
Same 3 pieces of shield skill? is that including a reduction for the +10 steadfast shield has on it? If you are keeping the same 3 + steadast you are gaining more shield skill that will throw off results than if you used a shield w/o. When im in my hybrid PDT/MDT/DT/Shield skill set my Aegis blocks a lot more often than w/o it on fracture bosses. I doubt they made steadfast have a unique size so that 80% on lower level mobs could very well just be the high shield skill kicking in.
Yes, that is the boxer's, af3 head and Steadfast, for +27 skill from gear.
Lakshmi.Cledant said: »
theres a nice test here http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/114547-Random-Question-Thread?p=5746680&viewfull=1#post5746680
Delve shield is really good. Lots of people likes to assume/ post random crap with no information on this forums like they are butthurt or something
Delve shield is really good. Lots of people likes to assume/ post random crap with no information on this forums like they are butthurt or something
Compared to which other size3 shield?
Odin.Creaucent said: »
Compared to which other size3 shield?
Edit: actually, doing that right now with terror shield. A little harder to establish dmg controls since it doesn't block nearly as much. In progress...
Edit: Redoing both shield tests on the EP's. This might take some time. I'd think a natural predator would have better aim on a large stationary object.
You really should test a second size3 shield on the same mob with same gear though take off boxers for steadfast and use boxers on the other size3. I wouldn't be surprised that its just the shield skill giving it that block rate on lower level crap and the same would go for any other size3.
From what I've seen. For I have neither. Adams is even better than steadfast.
Ok, comparing Terror Shield to Steady on EP chigoes.
Only difference was using Shield Torque with Terror so the skill difference was -3.
Terror: 405 hits total. 77% block rate.
Steady: 393 hits total. 78% block rate.
Forced to conclude the high block rate was only due to the large difference in player vs mob.
Since 3 different people have come to around 50% rate on mobs of decent level, I guess we'll have to go with that until someone feels like spending more time on it. My own curiosity is satisfied that I don't want to spend any more of my day on it.
Only difference was using Shield Torque with Terror so the skill difference was -3.
Terror: 405 hits total. 77% block rate.
Steady: 393 hits total. 78% block rate.
Forced to conclude the high block rate was only due to the large difference in player vs mob.
Since 3 different people have come to around 50% rate on mobs of decent level, I guess we'll have to go with that until someone feels like spending more time on it. My own curiosity is satisfied that I don't want to spend any more of my day on it.
Not going to comment on block rate since Apathy ^ pretty much said it right there, but since nobody else has mentioned it:
The reason it reduces a large amount of damage when shield procs is because of the super high def rating on the shield (50!). Comparing it to an IR Shield (15) is pointless. You'd be much better off comparing to weathering shield/adamas. It's not in a different shield size class like aegis/ochain.
The reason it reduces a large amount of damage when shield procs is because of the super high def rating on the shield (50!). Comparing it to an IR Shield (15) is pointless. You'd be much better off comparing to weathering shield/adamas. It's not in a different shield size class like aegis/ochain.
So. Some more intensive testing on Steadfast Shield, and some comparisons to other shields.
But first, a special thanks(sarcasm) to Cirrosiss, for stealing my test mobs, twice. And making this much more difficult and time consuming than it should have been. Jerk. A PLD, screwing with my shield testing... wtf.
Test conditions.
MOB:Mourning Crawler, lvl 105(lvl verified via battlemod. <3 Byrth)
99PLD/DNC
Shield Skill 442
PDT 38%
These conditions were maintained across all tests.
Steadfast shield
Data
The block dmg- for steadfast lines up perfectly with size3 dmg reduction. 50% for size 3 base. 6% for 99 PLD shield defense bonus. And 25% from the 50 def. 50+6+25=81.
Block rate is best assessed after looking at other shield's data.
Next up, some comparative data from other shields. And since there was some question about the accuracy of mob lvls in my old tests, I'll be using new test data. With mob lvls verified by battlemod.
Adamas
Data
Block dmg- breakdown. 50(base)+6(SDB)+17.5(def/2)=73.5. Compared to the 73.8 result.
Considering that the 0.69% difference between Steadfast and Adams is very well within variance for adamas sample size, I'd say they have the same base block rate. Note, Adamas is also a completely normal size 3 shield in terms of block rate and block dmg reduction.
I was actually going to get some data on weathering shield, just to reinforce that point. But some jerk kept taking my test mobs, and I didn't feel up to restarting. So, we'll just have to move on to Aegis.
Aegis(95)
Data
A 7.2% difference in base block rates(Aegis vs Steadfast) is way outside the variance range for these sample sizes. Clearly Putting Aegis in a different block rate range than Steadfast. Amusingly, the block dmg reduction values of the two are identical, if from different sources.
Aegis: 55%(base)+6%(SDB)+20%(DEF)=81%.
Steadfast: 50%(base)+6%(SDB)+25%(DEF)=81%.
A chart for some perspective.
Adamas has completely fallen behind, so we'll just move on to Aegis/steadfast
Aegis Vs. Steadfast
IF, you're making use of at least 4%~ or Steadfast's DT-, then Steadfast is Physically superior or Aegis. If you're already at capped PDT(PDT set or Turtle mode) then Aegis is ahead via it's higher block rate. But it's not like the DT lets you cap when you couldn't before. So it's basically better PDT when in TP gear or casting. Doesn't raise your max possible DMG reduction.
But, physical dmg- hasn't been Aegis thing since Ochain came out. Aegis Is about the magic dmg-. Aegis is physically comparably to steadfast, with damn near magic dmg immunity. Thus I'd still rate Aegis as the overall better shield.
Ochain...
Is curbstomping Steadfast. There's just no contest. To surpass Ochain, you'd have to push steadfast's block rate over 81%. Which just isn't happening on these mobs. I suppose with the DT, steadfast has an advantage against magic... but, were you having trouble capping MDT? <,<;
The shield Hierarchy hasn't really changed. Ochain and Aegis still have their uncontested specialties.
TLDR: Steadfast shield is a good, easy to acquire shield. But it's nothing special/unique. I would say it's currently either the 3rd or 4th best shield atm(I haven't looked into Killedar shield.)
But first, a special thanks(sarcasm) to Cirrosiss, for stealing my test mobs, twice. And making this much more difficult and time consuming than it should have been. Jerk. A PLD, screwing with my shield testing... wtf.
Test conditions.
MOB:Mourning Crawler, lvl 105(lvl verified via battlemod. <3 Byrth)
99PLD/DNC
Shield Skill 442
PDT 38%
These conditions were maintained across all tests.
Steadfast shield
Data
Code
Summary Total hits:14,231 Blocked:5,480 Non-blocked:8,751 Block% 38.5% AVG Blocked DMG:15.28 AVG non-Blocked DMG:83.18 Block DMG%- -81.6% Total Block DMG reduction -31.4%* *this value is before the PDT on the shield itself. As this is the DMG- value purely from blocking.
The block dmg- for steadfast lines up perfectly with size3 dmg reduction. 50% for size 3 base. 6% for 99 PLD shield defense bonus. And 25% from the 50 def. 50+6+25=81.
Block rate is best assessed after looking at other shield's data.
Next up, some comparative data from other shields. And since there was some question about the accuracy of mob lvls in my old tests, I'll be using new test data. With mob lvls verified by battlemod.
Adamas
Data
Code
Summary Total hits:3,289 Blocked:1,289 Non-blocked:2,000 Block% 39.19 AVG Blocked DMG:21.37 AVG non-Blocked DMG:81.81 Block DMG%- -73.8 Total Block DMG reduction -28.9
Block dmg- breakdown. 50(base)+6(SDB)+17.5(def/2)=73.5. Compared to the 73.8 result.
Considering that the 0.69% difference between Steadfast and Adams is very well within variance for adamas sample size, I'd say they have the same base block rate. Note, Adamas is also a completely normal size 3 shield in terms of block rate and block dmg reduction.
I was actually going to get some data on weathering shield, just to reinforce that point. But some jerk kept taking my test mobs, and I didn't feel up to restarting. So, we'll just have to move on to Aegis.
Aegis(95)
Data
Code
Summary Total hits:3144 Blocked:1,437 Non-blocked:1,707 Block% 45.7% AVG Blocked DMG:15.6 AVG non-Blocked DMG:84.97 Block DMG%- -81.6% Total Block DMG reduction: -37.2%
A 7.2% difference in base block rates(Aegis vs Steadfast) is way outside the variance range for these sample sizes. Clearly Putting Aegis in a different block rate range than Steadfast. Amusingly, the block dmg reduction values of the two are identical, if from different sources.
Aegis: 55%(base)+6%(SDB)+20%(DEF)=81%.
Steadfast: 50%(base)+6%(SDB)+25%(DEF)=81%.
A chart for some perspective.
Code
Shield Skill Block% DMG- Total DMG- Adamas 442 39.19% -73.8% -28.9%(-33.9% w/ shield DT) Steadfast(base) 442 38.5 -81.6% -31.4 Steadfast* 452 41.0% -81.6% -33.4(-40.4% w/ shield DT) Aegis 442 45.7% -81.6% -37.2% Ochain** 442 100% -66.1% -66.1% *For practical comparison, block rate was increased appropriately for the +10 skill on the shield. Likewise, the DT was added to the total DMG- and displayed. **Using old test data for Ochain. But it shouldn't make any difference, as Ochain was capping on these mobs at 433 skill. Which is being exceeded by 9 skill for every test.
Adamas has completely fallen behind, so we'll just move on to Aegis/steadfast
Aegis Vs. Steadfast
IF, you're making use of at least 4%~ or Steadfast's DT-, then Steadfast is Physically superior or Aegis. If you're already at capped PDT(PDT set or Turtle mode) then Aegis is ahead via it's higher block rate. But it's not like the DT lets you cap when you couldn't before. So it's basically better PDT when in TP gear or casting. Doesn't raise your max possible DMG reduction.
But, physical dmg- hasn't been Aegis thing since Ochain came out. Aegis Is about the magic dmg-. Aegis is physically comparably to steadfast, with damn near magic dmg immunity. Thus I'd still rate Aegis as the overall better shield.
Ochain...
Is curbstomping Steadfast. There's just no contest. To surpass Ochain, you'd have to push steadfast's block rate over 81%. Which just isn't happening on these mobs. I suppose with the DT, steadfast has an advantage against magic... but, were you having trouble capping MDT? <,<;
The shield Hierarchy hasn't really changed. Ochain and Aegis still have their uncontested specialties.
TLDR: Steadfast shield is a good, easy to acquire shield. But it's nothing special/unique. I would say it's currently either the 3rd or 4th best shield atm(I haven't looked into Killedar shield.)
[+]
Carbuncle.Luthian said: »
I used a Steadfast shield to hold fracture NM's for my LS before I got an Ochain. I've even tanked all 5 nm's for about 10 minutes before my WHM ran out of mp. I'd say 50% block rate on Steadfast is being generous.
Like I said. GENEROUS.
[+]
Maybe there is a hidden block rate increase at certain ranks? I know, probably not, but is there really a reason to even take these past rank 1?
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