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Supreme Court OKs Taking DNA From Arrestees
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2013-06-04 10:46:35
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine
My right to privacy is still breached.
It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay.
How is having your DNA on file that heinous a crime anyways? Or are you paranoid somebody will like falsely reconstruct it in a blood sample and frame you for a crime or something?
No, I just think it's the fundamental statement:
"We don't actually care if you're innocent or guilty, we want your unique marker in case you decide to become a criminal."
It's insulting. It's the epitome of "We're just waiting for you to be a criminal". It's presuming I will do something wrong.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-06-04 10:48:25
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine
My right to privacy is still breached.
It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay.
How is having your DNA on file that heinous a crime anyways? Or are you paranoid somebody will like falsely reconstruct it in a blood sample and frame you for a crime or something?
No, I just think it's the fundamental statement:
"We don't actually care if you're innocent or guilty, we want your unique marker in case you decide to become a criminal."
It's insulting. It's the epitome of "We're just waiting for you to be a criminal". It's presuming I will do something wrong.
Not if you've already been arrested though. People don't just randomly get thrown in jail for no reason. I've never gotten arrested, and I almost killed guy... Just sayin'.
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 10:52:15
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine My right to privacy is still breached. It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay. How is having your DNA on file that heinous a crime anyways? Or are you paranoid somebody will like falsely reconstruct it in a blood sample and frame you for a crime or something? Why do they need it? The government isn't entitled to everything I am just because it might make their lives a little easier...
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-06-04 10:55:52
from the statistics pulled out of my rear file...
1 in 4 americans is arrested at some point in their lives so there is a good chance you are going to decide to become a criminal at some point whether you like it or not xueye... I, of course, recommend you beat the rush and embrace those criminal urges now!
@flav I only want the dna from those smart enough to not get caught doing crimes! So I will stick with my rag soaked with chloroform method..
<insert diabolical laugh here>
Alexander.Carrelo
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By Alexander.Carrelo 2013-06-04 10:57:30
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »I'll take "Where the *** is my right to privacy and innocence until proven guilty" for 400, Trebek. I can see the right to privacy issue, but not the innocence issue. Taking your DNA isn't the same as convicting you, unless (and only if) you are in fact guilty.
The way I see it, the courts have already decided that it is permissible to maintain a database for the DNA of high-risk individuals (convicted felons, people entitled to fewer privacy rights) and are now in the process of deciding what exactly constitutes a high-risk individual. Apparently, being arrested in conjunction with a major crime has been added to the definition. Knowing that their tracks will be harder to cover in the future, these high-risk individuals will supposedly be less inclined to participate in future criminal activity. This is the obvious upside to having a DNA database, but I have questions about the downside.
Out of curiosity (and not argumentation--I admittedly have not chosen a side in this particular debate), what exactly are we worried the people in the police department will do with that DNA? Aside from the things that we agree they should do with it, of course.
Edit: meant to say "convicting."
By volkom 2013-06-04 10:59:55
I'm not worried really if they have my dna on record or not. The only main concern i have is if there's a mixup is if someone were to commit the crime but for some reason my dna will be registered under this person. :S
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2013-06-04 11:00:52
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Phoenix.Gaiarorshack said: »im all in for it
if it was me in charge dna sampels would be taken of every new born for a non-public register.
once you turn 18 (or whatever the legal age is) you need to go in and get you finger prints taken as well.
nothing of these information tell anything about my as a person, its no invading any privacy. but it will sure help to solving murder/rape cases.
So what I'm hearing is that in the name of safety, you want everyone to also have a GPS microchip and be constantly tracked by helicopter drones.
Giving up your genetic marker, your utterly unique ID, and giving a government free reign to use that information to check you out for crimes is consenting to constant search.
I don't get why people are okay with being treated as criminals without committing crimes. Literally every human is a potential criminal; why should we treat ourselves as though we're also not potentially law abiding citizens?
It just seems so insulting, so utterly "I'm not willing to believe in you".
@Flav I think it's a gray area because yes, they're not citizens true, but giving fewer rights to outsiders seems like institutionalized ethnocentricism.
What I don't understand is the difference between keeping DNA information and keeping fingerprints and photos. Especially since - I assume - DNA matching is even less fallible than fingerprints and photos.
I'm also confused about the concept of a continual search. I'm definitely no expert, but, I always considered the "problem" with unreasonable searches was basically just the disruption of the person's life / harassment kind of thing. The "seizure" of your genetic identity isn't preventing you from fully accessing and using it, the way the police randomly taking your house or car would.
Until there's some kind of fiasco where some sheriff is selling DNA information to drug companies for research (or something) I just don't see the harm.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Be wrongly convicted but if you actually are innocent then should be fine My right to privacy is still breached. It's still saying "well, we're keeping your DNA on record, because you could still be a criminal in the future". I don't see why this is okay. How is having your DNA on file that heinous a crime anyways? Or are you paranoid somebody will like falsely reconstruct it in a blood sample and frame you for a crime or something? Why do they need it? The government isn't entitled to everything I am just because it might make their lives a little easier...
Surely not. But identifying, catching, and convicting criminals more quickly and efficiently also makes everyone's life a little easier. Either from a safety perspective or even just "a six month investigation is cheaper than a 12 month investigation."
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-06-04 11:02:02
I'm not worried really if they have my dna on record or not. The only main concern i have is if there's a mixup is if someone were to commit the crime but for some reason my dna will be registered under this person. :S
That I think this the only logical concern. And I get what you're saying Flav, I just simply don't agree it's that big a deal.
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 11:03:00
from the statistics pulled out of my rear file... 1 in 4 americans is arrested at some point in their lives so there is a good chance you are going to decide to become a criminal at some point whether you like it or not xueye... I, of course, recommend you beat the rush and embrace those criminal urges now! @flav I only want the dna from those smart enough to not get caught doing crimes! So I will stick with my rag soaked with chloroform method.. <insert diabolical laugh here> Just steal from the cold case files with DNA in it... unsolved crimes go?
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 11:05:24
I'm not worried really if they have my dna on record or not. The only main concern i have is if there's a mixup is if someone were to commit the crime but for some reason my dna will be registered under this person. :S That I think this the only logical concern. And I get what you're saying Flav, I just simply don't agree it's that big a deal. Differing opinions aren't all that uncommon ^^
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-06-04 11:05:57
I'm not worried really if they have my dna on record or not. The only main concern i have is if there's a mixup is if someone were to commit the crime but for some reason my dna will be registered under this person. :S That I think this the only logical concern. And I get what you're saying Flav, I just simply don't agree it's that big a deal. Differing opinions aren't all that uncommon ^^
Oh I know lol. I think this one is simply an agree to disagree situation.
By volkom 2013-06-04 11:06:55
i wish i had my laptop with me. then i can use my evil mustache avi D:
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Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2013-06-04 11:15:15
But each, as you say, contain a choice. As you are not a natural citizen there you have no gauranteed rights and you have a choice as to if you would like to live there or not just as I'd have a choice not to work for a certain company... With the job placement your fingerprints end up in the system permanantly...
I didn't say my choice wasn't a choice. In all of my comments I pointed out choosing to reside in Denmark.
You stated, that you as a citizen (your words and it's the key word), have to get fingerprinted for a job. If you pointed out that people (both citizens and non) have to sometimes get fingerprinted for work, I would /nod and go about my business.
However, you are equating company fingerprinting (as a citizen) with being required to be fingerprinted in a country that you are a citizen of.
Maybe I'm completely mis-reading your comment. But you stated that as a citizen you have to be fingerprinted for your company. To me this is equating fingerprinting by company = fingerprinting by your (whichever one you are a citizen of) government.
If that's not what you mean, let me know.
Also, anyone know if your employer is allowed to keep your fingerprints on file indefinitely (not for security clearance, but just employer)?
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By volkom 2013-06-04 11:17:05
i haven't been fingerprinted for a job... but i do believe they keep those records on file for several years for legal reasons
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 11:24:38
But each, as you say, contain a choice. As you are not a natural citizen there you have no gauranteed rights and you have a choice as to if you would like to live there or not just as I'd have a choice not to work for a certain company... With the job placement your fingerprints end up in the system permanantly... I didn't say my choice wasn't a choice. In all of my comments I pointed out choosing to reside in Denmark. You stated, that you as a citizen (your words and it's the key word), have to get fingerprinted for a job. If you pointed out that people (both citizens and non) have to sometimes get fingerprinted for work, I would /nod and go about my business. However, you are equating company fingerprinting (as a citizen) with being required to be fingerprinted in a country that you are a citizen of. Maybe I'm completely mis-reading your comment. But you stated that as a citizen you have to be fingerprinted for your company. To me this is equating fingerprinting by company = fingerprinting by your (whichever one you are a citizen of) government. If that's not what you mean, let me know. Also, anyone know if your employer is allowed to keep your fingerprints on file indefinitely (not for security clearance, but just employer)? when I got my fingerprints taken they were entered into the governments system... they have my prints on file...
Not sure if any private professions are required to be fingerprinted but I know some can be fined by the governemnt if they hire people with criminal backgrounds... many public positions do especially ones where people deal with children...
I don't know specific federal law on fingerprinting though and state to state it differs widely...
Edit: I even remember the lady who performed the test was like "well at least your part of the best damn system in the world"
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2013-06-04 11:26:10
For legal reasons, a company can keep, maintain, and access your fingerprints for a job (should they even ask for it), to aid in police inquiries about a possible suspect, personalized and detailed personelle filing, etc. for up to 10 years, possibly more, depending on the legal route the company went.
Which is a scary thought, because as a private company, your fingerprints on file can potentially be sold legally to anyone who wants to buy them. Even if sold illegally, there are certain things you should never give your employer/potential employer, unless it is required by law.
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Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 11:26:47
I'm not worried really if they have my dna on record or not. The only main concern i have is if there's a mixup is if someone were to commit the crime but for some reason my dna will be registered under this person. :S That I think this the only logical concern. And I get what you're saying Flav, I just simply don't agree it's that big a deal. Differing opinions aren't all that uncommon ^^ Oh I know lol. I think this one is simply an agree to disagree situation. My biggest concern is the containment of this information... private information is almost readily available for anyone who knows how to reach out and grab it... sadly enough a lot of it has been provided by none other than ourselves... I just take a cautious outlook on how this nation is developing, what kind of information is out there and how it will be used in the coming years...
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2013-06-04 11:57:10
& here I was so careless with my DNA over the years...
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2013-06-04 11:58:13
& here I was so careless with my DNA over the years...
College?
Siren.Mosin
By Siren.Mosin 2013-06-04 12:00:52
& here I was so careless with my DNA over the years...
College?
COLLEGE!!!
Siren.Flavin
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By Siren.Flavin 2013-06-04 12:03:25
& here I was so careless with my DNA over the years... I told you storing your DNA inside another person is a dangerous and expensive game man!
Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2013-06-04 12:16:44
Never trust a college girl advertising herself as a "sperm bank" to hold your genetic profile.
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2013-06-04 12:38:16
Fenrir.Candlejack said: »One thing people forget about DNA evidence: If you get cut, you bleed. Blood contains DNA. If your hair gets cut, hair contains DNA. If you clip your finger and toenails, nails contain DNA. Even sweat contains it. It's everywhere in your body. It's not a matter of should you be able to willingly surrender a sample, as the authorities can get said sample through other means if need be.
Beyond that, rapists, ***, child-rapist priests, and brothel johns leave DNA evidence...
All joking about rapists aside, however, people also forget the cops force-fingerprint criminals as well, plus the mugshots, and if the criminal is caught with a firearm in his or her possession, they usually do a firing test so they have the barrel markings for the weapon on file.
There are numerous crimes and numerous forms of evidence police can gather on an immediate need basis. All this ruling does is add one more form of evidence they have to collect as they slap the cuffs on you.
I dispute your claim that anyone forgot any of those things you mentioned about dna...
also, I already collected everyone's dna from postage stamps and pennies....
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By Odin.Akhilleus 2013-06-04 14:03:25
I think D.N.A samples should be taken at birth. If they commit a crime during their lifetime the police will have a much easier time of tracking the criminal down if they left a sample behind on the scene. This saves the taxpayer money and also makes potential criminals think twice about doing something they shouldn't be doing.
Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2013-06-04 14:07:29
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »And for the daily double, what's the first amendment we lost and under which president?
Gonna guess habeas corpus under Lincoln.
1/2 right. While habeas corpus was suspended the 10th, states' right, was shattered.
By Enuyasha 2013-06-04 14:25:27
I would mostly like to think this will be used for identification purposes to make absolutely sure they have the right person.
Pretty sure DNA is the only way to know whether we got Osama or his gardener who for some reason has the same features and the same fingerprints.
As for "WOMG they could use this for other nefarious schemes and tread on muh rights!" They could,but when that happens this is when you as a citizen exercise your right of protest/vote/whatever else and actively make sure your government doesnt go down that route.
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By Odin.Zicdeh 2013-06-04 14:26:22
It sounds like something that should make logical sense, but considering our Country's habit of prosecutorial misconduct and predatory habits driven by the competitive nature of "Law", I can't help but feel this is both morally wrong, and a violation of rights to privacy.
It's sort of my same feelings on the Death Penalty (Not the lolcor Gun), I don't actually have anything against state-sponsored execution for the most serious crimes, but since we can't (And never will be able to) guarantee 100% of those put to death are actually guilty, I'm not so sure I'm cool being complacent with tax-payer approved murder.
Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2013-06-04 14:48:28
So, this reminds me of something! A couple of years ago one of our office assistants who was on hourly wage had to apply for Medicaid to curb the cost of prenatal care, labor, pediatrics, etc. since she couldn't afford the cost of insurance offered by our company. After she came back from maternity leave, she had told us that because her care had been provided via Medicaid in the state of Texas, she couldn't check out without signing away permission for a DNA sample from her newborn daughter.
I'm not sure about the validity of this, but I'm curious as to whether other states also do this if it is true.
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From Wired:
Quote: Deciding its biggest genetic privacy case of the term, a fractured Supreme Court said today that the states may take DNA samples from anybody arrested for serious crimes.
Privacy groups and law enforcement officials were closely watching the case because at least 27 states and the federal government have regulations requiring suspects to give a DNA sample upon some type of arrest, regardless of conviction. In all the states with such laws, the DNA records are cataloged in state and federal crime-fighting databases.
In a 5-4 decision, (.pdf) the justices reversed a 2012 ruling from Maryland’s top court, which had said that it was a breach of the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure to take, without warrants, DNA samples from suspects who have been arrested for crimes ranging from attempted burglary to murder. In the end, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that swabbing the inside of a suspect’s cheek to acquire a DNA sample was “an advanced technique superior” to fingerprinting, mugshots and even tattoo matching.
Quote: A DNA profile is useful to the police because it gives them a form of identification to search the records already in their valid possession. In this respect the use of DNA for identification is no different than matching an arrestee’s face to a wanted poster of a previously unidentified suspect; or matching tattoos to known gang symbols to reveal a criminal affiliation; or matching the arrestee’s fingerprints to those recovered from a crime scene. DNA is another metric of identification used to connect the arrestee with his or her public persona, as reflected in records of his or her actions that are available to the police.
Kennedy added that, not “to insist on fingerprints as the norm would make little sense to either the forensic expert or the layperson.” The majority also said that DNA collection “may have the salutary effect of freeing a person wrongfully imprisoned for the same offense.”
Justice Antonin Scalia, writing in dissent, said taking the DNA without a warrant was a clear Fourth Amendment violation. He suggested that the United States’ founding fathers would not be so willing “to open their mouths for royal inspection.”
DNA testing in the United States was first used to convict a suspected Florida rapist in 1987, and has been a routine tool to solve old or so-called cold cases. It has also exonerated convicts, even those on death row.
At issue before the justices was a Maryland Court of Appeals ruling that arrestees have a “weighty and reasonable expectation of privacy against warrantless, suspicionless searches” and that expectation was not outweighed by the state’s “purported interest in assuring proper identification” of a suspect.
The case involved Alonzo King, who was arrested in 2009 on assault charges. A DNA sample he provided linked him to an unsolved 2003 rape case, and he was later convicted of the sex crime. But the Maryland Court of Appeals reversed, saying his Fourth Amendment rights were breached.
Maryland prosecutors had argued that mouth swabs were no more intrusive than fingerprinting. Maryland’s high court said that it “could not turn a blind eye” to what it called a “vast genetic treasure map” that exists in the DNA samples retained by the state.
The Maryland court was noting that DNA sampling is much different from compulsory fingerprinting. A fingerprint, for example, reveals nothing more than a person’s identity. But much more can be learned from a DNA sample, which codes a person’s family ties, some health risks and, according to some, can predict a propensity for violence.
In dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote that the cheek swabbing was an unconstitutional, warrantless search of a suspect because it goes beyond identifying the suspect and moves into crime-solving territory.
“If identifying someone means finding out what unsolved crimes he has committed, then identification is indistinguishable from the ordinary law enforcement aims that have never been thought to justify a suspicionless search. Searching every lawfully stopped car, for example, might turn up information about unsolved crimes the driver had committed, but no one would say that such a search was aimed at ‘identifying’ him, and no court would hold such a search lawful,” Scalia wrote.
Scalia also mocked the majority’s rationale because the suspect’s DNA in the case was not processed for about four months after his arrest.
Quote: Today’s judgment will, to be sure, have the beneficial effect of solving more crimes; then again, so would the taking of DNA samples from anyone who flies on an airplane (surely the Transportation Security Administration needs to know the ‘identity’ of the flying public), applies for a driver’s license, or attends a public school. Perhaps the construction of such a genetic panopticon is wise. But I doubt that the proud men who wrote the charter of our liberties would have been so eager to open their mouths for royal inspection.
The issue before the justices did not contest the long-held practice of taking DNA samples from convicts. The courts have already upheld DNA sampling of convicted felons, based on the theory that those who are convicted of crimes have fewer privacy rights.
Today’s outcome was of no surprise, however. Chief Justice John Roberts in July stayed the Maryland decision. In the process, he said there was a “fair prospect”(.pdf) the Supreme Court would reverse the decision.
I think serious crimes are defined by the FBI as part I crimes, but I'm not completely sure.
I agree with Justice Scalia in this decision even though I've disagreed with many of his past decisions regarding defendants and DNA, copyright,, and others.
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