Endeavoring To Awaken --A Guide To Rune Fencer

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2010-09-08
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Endeavoring to Awaken --A Guide to Rune Fencer
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-03-31 18:40:29
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Fenrir.Calamity said: »
In a DD zerg setting you're right. And if that becomes all a RUN ends up being, then I concede. But if it does end up fulfilling it's designed roll at tank, that might change things somewhat. I main a dark and I'm all too aware of the detrimental effect on dps of trying to cast a spell mid battle, but I don't know. I need to see how RUN realistically functions in the end. Foil at the least seems worth spamming

Would be in all situations and most especially ones where your "tanking". Flash is only good for a VE spike early on, it's CE generation sucks. Once your capped VE, which shouldn't take more then 45~60s tops, flash become useless and actually ends up hurting your enmity generation. Right now in FFXI with how hate works, dealing damage and building hate are synonymous with each other. The only thing that differentiates a "pure DD" from a "tank" is that a tank will have a DT set on hand to hold the mob in particularly dangerous situations.

The "DD zerg" that happens is a natural result of this system, not the cause.

If SE had wanted RUN to function as anything else they would of given it an ability that generates ~1000 CE. Stuff like that is the only way your going to be "tanking" without hitting the monster really hard.
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 Carbuncle.Ceruleanknight
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By Carbuncle.Ceruleanknight 2013-03-31 18:56:51
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With the quantity of TA available for that job, its making me really sad to not be able to augment Algol to 99... really really sad...
 Fenrir.Weakness
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By Fenrir.Weakness 2013-03-31 19:20:49
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<.<; So how does the fire elemental path GS rank in here?
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-03-31 19:22:09
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At the top, the crafted gsword should edge it out but I havent mathed it at all
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By laydygaga 2013-03-31 19:50:36
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Does anyone have data on cleaving with run? I'm in a group now and I can do pretty decent at 84. Just curious since I'm thinking run/war can phalanx itself use defender too but enhance effect of phalanx with emboldment haven't tested it yet but it works in refresh (4/tick but half ticks) just a thought
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-03-31 20:23:51
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why on earth would you use defender? the monster stays alive longer and deals more damage to you. If for some reason you need defense use cocoon. You have a mp pool and refresh, no reason to ever use defender.
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2013-03-31 22:13:03
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Flash recast will not be 45 seconds if you aren't running around without haste/fast cast.

I'm throwing my hat into the /WAR camp.
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 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 22:17:59
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
why on earth would you use defender? the monster stays alive longer and deals more damage to you. If for some reason you need defense use cocoon. You have a mp pool and refresh, no reason to ever use defender.

I don't really get what an mp pool and refresh, has anything to do with only having regen spells on run/war or run/sam. Nor would they have cocoon/cures on their own. Are you really suggesting run/blu as a viable option?
 Asura.Ziroku
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By Asura.Ziroku 2013-03-31 22:21:36
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run/nin with dual swords a viable option?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 22:22:16
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Asura.Ziroku said: »
run/nin with dual swords a viable option?

better off with 2 axes.
 Shiva.Arana
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By Shiva.Arana 2013-03-31 22:27:18
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
why on earth would you use defender? the monster stays alive longer and deals more damage to you. If for some reason you need defense use cocoon. You have a mp pool and refresh, no reason to ever use defender.

I don't really get what an mp pool and refresh, has anything to do with only having regen spells on run/war or run/sam. Nor would they have cocoon/cures on their own. Are you really suggesting run/blu as a viable option?
I think he means that if you're in a situation where you're in need of a def boost such as cleaving you're better off going /blu for cocoon than /war for defender. The poster he was correcting advocated defender.

Does Rune get fell cleave naturally or does it have to sub war?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 22:35:01
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Ahh. I get ya.
 Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 22:43:58
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Ok, so, I made a suggestion on the official forums and it didn't get much reaction, so can you guys pick it apart for me and tell me what may be broken or unreasonable?

Quote:
So, after getting to stack 2x Runes and using Lunge, I can see what Lunge is, a hate tool. BUT The recast to be a hate tool may be just a bit too long. (Yes, I realize the damage it can do and how reducing recast could be "broken")

Secondly, the job has no shield, no heavy armor, yet it's referred to as a "tank". Do I think RUN should get heavy armor, like PLD does? No, I do not. We can get quite a bit of good gear at 99, including a bit of Damage reduction/Physical damage reduction, and we have defensive magic, Protect I-IV, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and even the new Foil for special attacks. We also have A+ parrying skill, which is where I've become disappointed, I don't exactly know what Inquartata does or the rate at which it does it, but I do know the maximum Parrying rate is 20%. I feel that for RUN to be an effective and feasible tank this will need to be raised...drastically. I understand RUN is meant to be a tank against magic, but there aren't really mobs that ONLY use magic, RUN needs enough survivability to withstand the physical swings between a mob's spells.

I know I'm comparing RUN to PLD here, but PLD can get a hard cap of 65% block rate, 100% with Ochain, under certain conditions. I'm not suggesting we raise Parrying rate to 100%, I'd suggest a rate of around 55-60%.

So far, I really like this job, I like the way it works, I like the idea behind it, I want to see a new tank job thrive, be successful, and have a place in a party, but unless RUN can survive the physical hits it takes, I think it's doomed to become a back-up tank/DD/support, and we have enough of those.
Quote:
Thinking set Parrying to scale in Parrying rate with Inquartata as you level up, adding several levels to Inquartata to boost Parrying rate to 55%-60%.

New Spell: Riposte
Kinda like Reprisal but with a Parry instead of a Block.

Also, Foil seems to be VERY short in duration, I mean TOO short.

Does this sound unreasonable or whiny?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 22:52:23
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I think it's not so bad, but realize that parry is complete dmg mitigation unlike shield (though I realize with ochain it reduces a royal ton).
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 22:58:20
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
I think it's not so bad, but realize that parry is complete dmg mitigation unlike shield (though I realize with ochain it reduces a royal ton).

I had thought about that, shield was at one point complete dmg nullification, and it was changed. PLD has the advantage of heavy armor and the added defence of a shield, and most PLD's blocked attacks are 1-3 dmg, that I've seen at 99, anyway.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 23:03:05
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Yeah, but that's with the empy, and work put into it. Which I realize isn't the point, but you gotta realize Run shouldn't have (what would effectively be) dmg null 45% of the time in the form of parry rate straight out of the gate, with no work/special gear involved. And remember when shield WAS full dmg mitigation the shield block rate was abysmal
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 23:07:47
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
Yeah, but that's with the empy, and work put into it. Which I realize isn't the point, but you gotta realize Run shouldn't have (what would effectively be) dmg null 45% of the time in the form of parry rate straight out of the gate, with no work/special gear involved. And remember when shield WAS full dmg mitigation the shield block rate was abysmal

Right. Maybe 55%-60% is a bit high, still, you'd think Rune Fencer would rely on Parrying alot. What do you think would be a fair Parrying rate cap?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 23:09:55
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Idk... how do we know 20% is the cap? It's the ONLY job with A+ parry.
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-03-31 23:11:57
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I can see it now

Mythic RUN Greatsword
Enhances "Inquartata" Effect V


Odin.Eikechi said: »
Idk... how do we know 20% is the cap? It's the ONLY job with A+ parry.

SAM's parrying skill caps only 8 points below RUN's



I'd be completely happy with a capped 20% parry rate via Inquartata. Higher than that isn't really necessary as a 1/5 chance of completely negating damage (which works on TP moves, I'll remind you) is adequate.
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 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 23:15:04
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I can see it now

Mythic RUN Greatsword
Enhances "Inquartata" Effect V


Odin.Eikechi said: »
Idk... how do we know 20% is the cap? It's the ONLY job with A+ parry.

SAM's parrying skill caps only 8 points below RUN's



I'd be completely happy with a capped 20% parry rate via Inquartata. Higher than that isn't really necessary as a 1/5 chance of completely negating damage (which works on TP moves, I'll remind you) is adequate.

If they do get a mythic, that wouldn't be a bad idea honestly.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 23:17:33
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Odin.Eikechi said: »
Idk... how do we know 20% is the cap? It's the ONLY job with A+ parry.

COR has A+ in Parrying. The 20% rate comes from BG Wiki ehich states 20% is the "maximum" rate.


Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I can see it now

Mythic RUN Greatsword
Enhances "Inquartata" Effect V


Odin.Eikechi said: »
Idk... how do we know 20% is the cap? It's the ONLY job with A+ parry.

SAM's parrying skill caps only 8 points below RUN's



I'd be completely happy with a capped 20% parry rate via Inquartata. Higher than that isn't really necessary as a 1/5 chance of completely negating damage (which works on TP moves, I'll remind you) is adequate.

I like this idea.


What about my idea for Riposte?
 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 23:19:54
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Cor is A- just like nin/sam/thf
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-03-31 23:21:45
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Riposte would be great. Good source of TP gain and damage mitigation. May need an offset though, like a low duration or increasing casting time/recast of spells, or reducing attack speed.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 23:23:13
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Hmm, mine isn't capped, so I don't know 100%, but if that 20% was tested with A- the actual cap could be higher, no? I noticed BG Wiki doesn't say the hard cap is 20%, it says the maximum is. Perhaps it's because no prior job had A+?
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-03-31 23:25:14
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A few extra skill is highly unlikely to make or break a cap value. Stacking parrying gear on an A- job would have been more than sufficient to previously test parry cap.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 23:26:34
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Hmm, does anyone know what Inquartata does exactly?
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By Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey 2013-03-31 23:28:33
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Fenrir.Calamity said: »
Idk, given RUN's very limited access to stp gear, and wide access to multi attack gear, plus the generally crappy delays of gswords, Not to mention the generally useful spells run has that would be hurt by seigan/hasso, I feel like /war and a multi attack build, over /sam and an stp build would be better.

IDK that stp gear is THAT limited:
* Rajas/Brutal +6 (surely you're already using these)
* Houyi +3 (legit choice for neck it seems)
* Rose Strap +4
* Hagneia Stone +3
* Skadi +1 head +4
* Skadi+1 legs +8
* I'm likely forgetting some options too.

And of course +15 from /SAM trait.

You may be right that /WAR multi-attack build ends up as ideal, but I don't think it's for the reason that RUN is so deficient in Store TP gear availability as to make it not viable to gear for x-hit builds.
*Tyrant's ring (if u really need it, otherwise epona's)
*Goading belt
*Tactical Mantle
*Wrathwing nails

Needless to say RUN has a TON of STP options and could have one badass TP set(not to mention all the double/triple/quadruple attack it has access too) I am more worried about it's Reso gear options
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-03-31 23:32:39
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Phoenix.Kojo said: »
Hmm, does anyone know what Inquartata does exactly?

I'll test it once I hit 99. Have been leveling the real way rather than burning to 99, more enjoyable.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2013-03-31 23:34:45
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Phoenix.Kojo said: »
Hmm, does anyone know what Inquartata does exactly?

I'll test it once I hit 99. Have been leveling the real way rather than burning to 99, more enjoyable.

I've been leveling in GoV. Not exactly old school, but more fun than hitting 30 and afking in Abyssea for a few hours.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-03-31 23:36:21
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So you've been book burning? :P

Anyways, is tactical parry tiered up at least? Also I think all they would really need to add to run to make it a good DD that can push "tank" status, would just simply be either a) attack boost JTs like drk, or even b) make them have JTs that only add attack if you have a 2h weapon on. it would appease the folks that really want to use reso, and it would help Run overall I think.
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