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Which Relic Should I Make?: A Guide
Bismarck.Keityan
Server: Bismarck
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Posts: 323
By Bismarck.Keityan 2013-02-19 23:01:39
Oh, I agree, but I never said that koga is only good for VW. I was quoted and interpreted with Ejin's quoting "koga only good for VW". I only justified the list that someone else had posted and in "that list", koga is good for voidwatch only. I do use koga for some very specific legion chambers/mobs, and a whole slew of events too, so I hope I hadn't biased it so much! I'll delve deeper in the analysis if it if end up writing the SAM one.
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By Phoenix.Dramatica 2013-02-19 23:03:35
Alright, I had just assumed you were implying that the only event where koga shines is VW.
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Presidentobama 2013-02-19 23:51:32
You can self skill chain darkness with the relic staff. Bebe does GoT + empy WS = darkness. so it does allow you to self sc for more damage.
He doesn't have shattersoul, but if GoT + shattersoul make darkness it would be a powerful sc.
Bismarck.Shyral
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By Bismarck.Shyral 2013-02-19 23:59:00
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: » powerfuk sc.
/scared
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-20 00:48:42
Ragnarok.Presidentobama said: »You can self skill chain darkness with the relic staff. Bebe does GoT + empy WS = darkness. so it does allow you to self sc for more damage. He doesn't have shattersoul, but if GoT + shattersoul make darkness it would be a powerful sc.
Wait how does that work....
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 01:17:37
Myrkr doesn't even have SC properties, lol.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-20 01:22:11
Myrkr doesn't even have SC properties, lol.
I'm just as concerned with the idea of performing a WS with relic staff, changing staff, then closing a SC with that staff's WS.
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-20 01:24:06
Myrkr doesn't even have SC properties, lol.
I'm just as concerned with the idea of performing a WS with relic staff, changing staff, then closing a SC with that staff's WS.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-20 01:26:38
Not "how", "why"...
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-20 01:27:07
fun? idk, I think it's silly too lol
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-20 01:29:46
Perhaps he thinks Retribution is the Empyrean WS. I wouldn't be surprised at this point.
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Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-20 01:36:52
I just assumed he meant the mythic ws.
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-20 01:48:59
It doesn't skillchain with Vidohunir.. ?_?
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Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2013-02-20 02:11:30
With zerg situations like this, I have been wary of using Koga because the reliance on using the first Rana for a 30-60 second fight.
If the fight is only 30~60 sec, why not pull another random mob to use Rana on for AM3, then pop ADL right away with AM3 on?
Lakshmi.Aelius
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By Lakshmi.Aelius 2013-02-20 02:15:32
This thread just became sticky.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 02:23:36
Has anyone actually run numbers on staves? There's no way Claustrum even holds a candle to Nirvana for a Melee SMN, but it seems like Plenitas Virga might actually stand a chance to beat it.
Mystic Boon averages 700+ with Mjollnir, so I'm sure you could get similar or better returns on Spirit Taker with Plenitas Virga leaving you free to use a more powerful Shattersoul than you could with Claustrum.
100TP Gates of Tartarus is giving you 8mp/tic refresh for 20 seconds, so you're only getting 53 mp back. And I'm assuming you're meleeing on SMN, because BLM is just a bad idea, so you probably have an avatar out, and meleeing means you're not really making use of -perpetuation gear so you're going to be locked into using, GoT or using Spirit Taker interspersed with Shattersoul as outlined above with 15 more base damage and +15 accuracy but -20 INT and 15 less attack. (Spirit Taker is 50% INT / 50% MND, Shattersoul 100% INT).
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Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 02:25:02
I know it's 3:30 am when I'm seriously pondering staff DD.
Good night.
Ramuh.Austar
Server: Ramuh
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-20 02:35:20
Has anyone actually run numbers on staves? I could tomorrow evening. GoT for relic and Spirit Taker for Plenitas?
By Gimp 2013-02-20 02:41:35
Could you also compare the DoT difference of 95 Claustrum vs 90 Hvergelmir(100 tp for aftermath)
and the DoT 99 vs 99 version of each (same aftermath for hverg) respectively?
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-20 02:43:39
Has anyone actually run numbers on staves? There's no way Claustrum even holds a candle to Nirvana for a Melee SMN, but it seems like Plenitas Virga might actually stand a chance to beat it.
Mystic Boon averages 700+ with Mjollnir, so I'm sure you could get similar or better returns on Spirit Taker with Plenitas Virga leaving you free to use a more powerful Shattersoul than you could with Claustrum.
100TP Gates of Tartarus is giving you 8mp/tic refresh for 20 seconds, so you're only getting 53 mp back. And I'm assuming you're meleeing on SMN, because BLM is just a bad idea, so you probably have an avatar out, and meleeing means you're not really making use of -perpetuation gear so you're going to be locked into using, GoT or using Spirit Taker interspersed with Shattersoul as outlined above with 15 more base damage and +15 accuracy but -20 INT and 15 less attack. (Spirit Taker is 50% INT / 50% MND, Shattersoul 100% INT).
Can't you basically get avi's for free or near free without staff slot anyways though?
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 02:44:56
Has anyone actually run numbers on staves? I could tomorrow evening. GoT for relic and Spirit Taker for Plenitas?
I'd assume for Plenitas you'd be using Shattersoul when you don't need MP.
One Spirit Taker should be worth minimum of 9 GoTs worth of MP.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 02:45:43
Plenitas probably looks something like this, I don't know if the store TP pieces are necessary or useful at all.
Claustrum would be stuck using worse gear (just losing the head slot, I guess).
Fenrir.Sylow
Server: Fenrir
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 02:46:07
[
Can't you basically get avi's for free or near free without staff slot anyways though?
While wearing melee gear? No.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-20 02:50:43
I'll figure out numbers for Spirit Taker, Shattersoul, and Myrkr with Claustrum 95/99, Plenitas, and Hvergelmir 90/99 and proper TP sets for them all, /SAM probably.
edit: may as well do it now since people want to text me at 2 am
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 03:02:18
The only problem with SMN/SAM is you lose the ability to keep yourself alive.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 03:03:50
Well, it's not the only problem, but yeah.
By Gimp 2013-02-20 03:05:03
Thank you very much.
Is it safe to rule out DA and OAX staves also in comparison to Claustrum? As far as mp recovery with spirit taker spam. DoT/WS wise I'd like to assume a safe bet in claustrum's favor but I don't do math.
@Eikechi: Keep in mind that while meleeing you're going to get back more mp than you're used to that with just a pet out, so you don't necessarily need as much -perp minus gear.
SILLY SYLOW FORGOT THAT YOU CAN HAVE FREE AVATAR IN MELEE GEAR WITH ASTRAL FLOW ACTIVE!
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-02-20 03:15:47
The only problem with SMN/SAM is you lose the ability to keep yourself alive. If you're able to melee, it's probably not incredibly dangerous to start with. Proper BP set though you can keep hastega up and still have plenty of healing BPs in between.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-20 03:24:28
Objection withdrawn!
By Gimp 2013-02-20 03:25:44
Healing bps are a bit of breather but it's not something you can rely on something as a sole cure against some "competent" ep-dc mobs like in dyna xarc. The damage you'll be doing (even without a melee set) will pull hate off your avatar if you staff skill is leveled even somewhat decently because of how horrible avatar DoT is; granted bps are a bit of breather but as that mob is tearing into your avatar and you're hitting that mob with your swings with the OD 2.5 or ODD you will pull hate back.
Then you spend more time curing yourself with cure iv and getting ss blink back up and watching your avatar's hp. Most of healing bps don't generate hate(or not enough) hate on the avatar itself. I personally use ramuh for shock squall/ chaotic strike double stun helps cut into the mobs attacks and helps on casting, recasting avatars, etc. You could also get "fancy" and pull off a nightmare or sleepga to buy some time(yes that's no squall prior to this ss/blink beforehand).
Ideally you want a mob of that nature to die very quickly but it takes awhile if it's shifting hate onto you a lot which is likely for smn then you will be putting more mp into yourself to stay alive and watch your avatars hp to makes sure it's not killed before your next bp goes off.
Edit: I should consider that for mob you're fighting that you're using shattersoul/spirit taker on claustrum about twice and about two physical bps to kill the mob which would shave off some time and assuming you don't need mp for cures. Hard to say without using Hvergelmir in the same fashion myself.
We're assuming solo of course, but I guess if you put your whm mule in xarc with your smn/sam you win the game regardless!
Dafuq Relic Shud I Maek?
Because every argument has already been made
Now with 30% less Comic Sans!
So, liek, you've burned your Beastmaster to 99 and you're ready to go fight over nightmare mobs in dreamlands Dynamis with the rest of your server. But, you don't know which relic to make? Fortunately, 50 other people made a thread before you and contrary to what you may believe, your situation is not unique.
Aegis
The creepiest relic of them all!
Stuff regarding Aegis goes here.
Amanomurakumo
Sword of the Gathering Clouds of Heaven
Amanomurakumo analysis goes here.
Annihilator
Soon to be banned by Obama
Annihilator analysis goes here.
Apocalypse
The End of the World
Apocalypse analysis goes here.
Bravura
The Virtuoso
Bravura analysis goes here.
Claustrum
The Waste of Currency
Claustrum analysis goes here.
Excalibur
The sword of King Arthur
Excalibur analysis goes here.
Gjallarhorn
The Yelling Horn
Gjallarhorn analysis goes here.
Gungnir
The Swaying One
Luvdisc analysis goes here.
Guttler
The Relic-Maker
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER by Scaevola
SO YOU WANT TO MAKE A GUTTLER
Overview Guttler, like most relic weapons, is straight damage upgrade. It is BST's highest damage weapon out of realistic options (Aymur might be situationally better? Do we care? Not really!). However, since Guttler obviously represents a massive financial investment you could, at the very least, use on another relic for another job, there are some pretty broad existential questions about game priorities you need to ask yourself that we'll get to in a bit. For now, just keep in mind Guttler is your best damage option for BST.
(a.) Strengths and Weaknesses Guttler's straight damage. Like all one-hand relics, it gives a big attack boost, a choke effect (VIT down) that maybe helps you get a bit closer towards meeting its pretty-impressively-high weapon rank of 9 (at 95+), and even though Onslaught is unfortunately fairly bad even by relic WS standards (doubly unfortunate because the aftermath is actually pretty awesome as relic AMs go, but the 20 second duration for 100 TP is never going to get you to another WS on BST so you don't really get the opportunity to mix up Onslaught and Ruinator), Guttler lends itself well to spamming Ruinator, which is arguably the best WS in the game considered independently of weapon type.
(b.) Does this weapon fundamentally alter or create roles for the job? The downside (other than Ruinator eclipsing Onslaught) is that it is a weapon for BST, and while it's the best a BST can do, you're ultimately going to run into the scaling issues that give BST so much trouble on higher-end content. Guttler DOES NOT change the game for a BST. But again, you're a BST, so if you have the right attitude and are playing to your strengths you shouldn't necessarily care about that.
(c.) In what situations is the weapon used? You'll make good use of Guttler in any situation where you'll melee as BST.
(d.) How frequent do these situations arise? These situations arise quite a bit more often than people seem to think. Snarl is pretty great, and since you're likely subbing DNC or NIN for DW, in either case you have some tool to mitigate much of the AoE damage you could potentially suffer on a larger NM.
(e.) In what situations is the weapon trumped by another option and how frequently do these situations occur? In such situations, Guttler's going to come out on top every time. The most common competitors I see mentioned are DA or Fire magian axes, and Guttler is a clear upgrade from those (and has a HUGE delay advantage over the DA, I might add).
(f.) Is the weapon still functional when not fully upgraded (lv95) Since Onslaught's not very good, I personally don't think Guttler gains much from going past 95; 99, notably, does not gain a weapon rank. Obviously 99 is better, but not nearly as much as with relics whose WSes are actually "good".
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
(a.) What are the weapon's major competitors? Guttler doesn't really have any meaningful competition for BST specifically, unless we're counting mythics, and we're not because fuck you. Farsha is bad because Cloudsplitter is bad and Empyreans live or die by their WSes. The real competition is a relic for another job that would be more competitive in a group setting.
(b.) When is this weapon superior to its major competitors? ...which brings us to the central soul-searching question you need to ask yourself as a BST interested in Guttler: are the various EP-to-EM-related mulchfests I wail on as BST important enough to me personally to invest in a Guttler over something like Ragnarok or Annihilator that would help me in a large group? This is not a simple question of job loyalty, mind you; Gungnir is bad because DRG is bad, and DRG is bad because it's heavily outstripped by other jobs in everything it does. BST, OTOH, is the undisputed king of what IT does, and you would never question making, say, an Ukonvasara for a WAR that was your best option for the content to which you brought it. In fact, you could say it's even greater than that, because, say, a 10% damage increase in the solo situations that BST finds itself translates into much greater results than an equivalent output increase in a situation where you have 17 other people to fall back on.
I'm not necessarily saying you should make a Guttler. All I'm saying is that the answer to this, maybe more than any other relic, is one that only you yourself can really provide.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
(a.) When is or isn't this the weapon for you? Guttler obviously might be for you if you love the shit out of the flexibility and independence BST provides. The master is not by any means a weak partner in the relationship between master and pet, and Ruinator is quite easy to build up to genuinely impressive levels. But it IS a substantial investment, and is not going to make your BST anything other than a BST.
On the upshot, you can use it to make another relic that much quicker! It pays for itself (if you have a year to blow in Dynamis)!
Are there any other considerations? Also, not for nothing, Guttler is a 10,000 shell relic and will thus in the current economy be substantially cheaper than other options.
Kikoku
Demon Wail
Kikoku analysis goes here.
Mandau
The Headhunter
Mandau Analysis provided by Byrth
(1.) Overview
Mandau gives access to Mercy Stroke. It is D55/175 Delay and has 13.33% Triple Damage proc rate on the first swing of each round that uses it. It also has a 10 Damage/tick en-poison.
Mercy Stroke is 3.0 fTP and 60% STR. Using it with Mandau will give you a Critical Hit Rate +5% aftermath (both hands) that lasts for 20~60 seconds at 100~300TP.
Benefits: This weapon substantially boosts Attack (which dagger jobs need) and gives access to a good SA/TA WS for THF. It can be main-handed in all situations, except perhaps when you are evasion tanking something so incredibly accurate that you need to use two AGI Thokchas. There is no time when another weapon is a better for damage.
Weaknesses: This weapon has no specific weaknesses and does not create a fundamentally unique role for the job. Also, Mandau is one of the few weapons that benefits majorly from the upgrade to 99.
(2.) Comparison to major competitors
Competitors: Twashtar (BRD and THF), Almace (RDM)
Mandau is superior to Twashtar almost all of the time at level 99, and level 95 Mandau is superior to level <90 Twashtar all the time. Twashtar's major advantage is its 20 DEX, which may change your dDEX crit rate if you aren't already capped. This is a non-issue if you offhand Twashtar, though, which is ideal.
Mandau is never superior to Almace for RDM.
(3.) Dealbreakers and sealers
You should not choose this weapon if your goal is to do epeen awesome damage and win all the parses against heavy DDs. Mandau is a very good weapon, but it does not make THF into a heavy DD. It makes good THF better than bad DDs.
You should choose this weapon if your goal is to improve your THF's damage in the situations where you use it already. Thief is primarily used for Treasure Hunter, and as a result it is used very frequently. The events where you use THF will be faster and smoother if you are using Mandau, and that should be your motivation for getting this weapon.
As far as other considerations, you need to take Mandau to 99 for it to really shine. The last +15% Mercy Stroke damage opens up new ways to use the WS.
When offhanding with 27% DA (/WAR) and 14% TA:
Mercy Stroke - 2 hits base, 1.4*(4 fTP + 0.1 Gorget + MultiAttack Rate*2) = 7.17 fTP - Gets about D+85 from 60% STR
(55+85+14)*7.17 = 1082.6
Exenterator - 5 hits base, 5 fTP + MultiAttack Rate*2 = 6.02 fTP - Gets about D+140 from 100% AGI
(55+140+14)*6.02 = 1258.2
You will likely cap fSTR in each case. Mercy Stroke has more STR (and thus Attack) than Exenterator, but Exenterator has an unverified 5% Attack boost associated with it so you can sort of call it a wash. Exenterator also will hit the round-cap if you TA twice, while Mercy Stroke will not. This is not corrected for.
So Exenterator will do <14% more damage unstacked, but you get an extra 5% crit rate for up to 60 seconds after Mercy Stroke so it might be worth using uncapped if you have high TP outside Abyssea. Note that this is just napkin math and some claim the difference is even smaller than this. Exenterator doesn't benefit from TP.
Mjöllnir
The Crusher
Mjöllnir analysis goes here.
Ragnarok
The Fate of the Divine
Ragnarok analysis goes here.
Spharai
The Spheres
Spharai analysis goes here.
Yoichinoyumi
The Fan-Splitter
Yoichinoyumi analysis goes here.[/div]
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