Overall Battle System Adjustments For The Future

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RNG in Voidwatch = proc party 99% of the time. I rely on my fabulous diplomacy skills to get me in a party with a COR or BRD and I have never had them make an exception of me and give me additional minuets over their 'required' marches.

Again, that more so then has to do with your buff situation sucking, not ranger as a whole. I've seen it do some mean dmg.

I'm not declaring Ranger can't do mean damage. We can and I always love it when people are pleasantly surprised. But it takes full buffs for us to compete at the top level and ultimately, side by side with WARs or DRKs with a comparative number of buffs up, we can't come close.

I would accept it and move on if Ranger did not cost millions to play just to be second, third, fourth best to people who do more damage auto attacking.

Doin it wrong? Ammo is not THAT expensive to "compete" (especially with the recycle head + merits). Wars/drks/sams what have you, typically do a lot because they are favored in the buff parties.

That's really bizarre that BRDs don't give you Minuets; they always go out of their way to give me Minuets when I'm on COR spamming Wildfire.

LOL, triple shot and dat aftermath...?

As if I carry bullets other than Omphalos and Bronze.

Please don't "doin it wrong" me, I have a lot of respect for you and don't want that to change... I play Ranger an awful lot. I shoot a *** load of bullets every week because, bluntly, it's my favourite job and I wouldn't prefer to be on any other job.

You're taking my posts in the context that I'm whining about having to pay for bullets. Take it in the context that, considering nearly every other job is going to benefit from these changes, I'm fully entitled to expect Ranger to benefit somewhere.

And they're not. The Recycle adjustment they had planned for December never happened either. I'm sure there are Rangers out there who play it 24/7 with hundreds of millions of gil who would be quite enthusiastic about changes to Recycle... If nothing else, just for the added chance of TP bonuses.

So, cost is another factor to some people. Compared to some people I'm very poor (though that's mostly Zaldon's fault right now.) - accept that to some people the cost is relevant when weighing the pros and cons of a job.

I bring it up only in the context that we are discussing the pros and cons of RNG. And yes, I fully expect a job I have to invest so heavily in to perform at the top of my level to at least be competitive with other jobs...

And in most cases it's not. You are right - this is chiefly down to RNG not getting the buff love other jobs get. But even in situations where a RNG is getting a shiteload of Minuets and Rolls they'll still not be dealing as much damage as a Ragnarok DRK - or even close.

I don't think it's expecting too much for them to buff RNG, considering they're planning on buffing every other bloody job.

I think we just have lazy Bards on this server. I can't honestly recall an occasion where I was being pianissimo'd some minuets after the Bard was done marching outside of doing things with friends.

Your quote made me laugh, because that happened a week or two ago too. When I explained I didn't need Minuet he told me I'm shooting bullets... Considering we were fighting Bismarck, I wasn't.

I'm still confused as hell about rng "not stacking up" considering the multitude of 10-15k dmg barrage SSs I see on VW mobs. Do you have full recycle merits and shoot non WS shots in the AF2+2a head piece? I would say that's probably a big portion of gil saved (as it leads to higher TP yield, so more frequent WS and that's where your dmg shines). Let's not forget it's RANGER. It's got the added ability to not be so close to not get one-shotted to hell by a lot of things, like 99% of the other DD's suffer from. So that is their cost for that ability. It's gonna blow some gil to fire bullets. It's a trade off you have to willingly accept to play that job. It's dmg is really good, again you just need buffs.

Edit: You could also do the Arma route, and use bronze for WS and something decent for AM/TP.

Well, I haven't had a chance to augment it yet, so no. I'm aware the cost will drastically fall when I've got that done. And believe me when I say, I'm not overly bothered by having to pay this gil to play Ranger. I didn't make an Annihilator for fun. I love this job, it's my favourite one and I'll play it even if it makes me go bankrupt.

But in the context of Ranger being buffed or being compared to other jobs, cost obviously becomes a factor. Asides from Ninja and Corsair there's no other jobs that have to expend consumables just to function. So, in a situation like this, where we're looking at planned changes to jobs, the cost becomes a relevant factor that is at least worth mentioning.

Re: barrage, those screenshots are not average. Anyone who claims their barrages often break 5 digits are full of ***. I've had it happen a few times, sure, but it's most certainly not 'common'.

Re: Distance, /shrug, the only place that matters is Odin or Legion. I can quite happily dance one foot from the monster in voidwatch because I know the multitude of medicines will protect me. Though of course, I don't stand that close because I want the distance bonuses. Hypothetically speaking though, if I did stand that close...

No.

However, I'd like to see that the beastmaster's target remain claimed instead of the pet's target. The pet will do stupid things and switch target.. many times. If there's something I really want to stay mine, me engaging on it should be fine.

And yeah, like many people, my bst paid for my relic, but you shouldn't get to hold multiple mobs.

BST has been given a major BJ from SE in the past 2 years as far as fighting non-IT content goes...but at the end of the day, you're ONE player, you can claim ONE mob. Why should you be given preferential treatment because you feel you should be able to fight 5 mobs at once?

You probably *** and moan when someone kills your unclaimed mobs too...

Nynja is still butthurt about bst and dynamis lol. Why didn't you level BST already ? Let the kids farm currency. Big guns do marrows.

Pchan is still butthurt about life ;;

Like others in this thread, I can't wait to see something real about enmity.

In most games, enmity is very simple. You hit things, you gain enmity. Certain abilities produce more, but do little/no damage. You heal things, you gain enmity.

I'm really afraid the fix to enmity will needlessly involve simplifying the whole system. It's not complex to use, but there's a few intricacies that benefit the people that really understand it, or there used to be, like cure kits, or using abilities like warcry, or popping zerk and cancelling immediately/soon after and using spells and not caring about the damage.

I liked it at 75 when the measure of a good tank was how fast they could let the dps tear ***up. Now the measure of a good tank is how fast they swing.

I'm sure they don't know what to do about pld. It doesn't, and can't, hit as fast as the other melee. There's no reasonable way to make that happen, but pld is and was a blast.

be sweet if there was an aoe taunt.

Wrong game ><
*Provoke

The enmity fix isn't a complicated issue. They just need to increase the enmity of abilities and spells that paladins use to increase their enmity. Then remove the enmity cap because capping enmity is dumb.

Increased enmity cap, somewhat lower hate gain from damage dealt, and a trait or something for tank jobs that causes VE to decay more slowly would be an alright start for enmity adjustments. Hopefully the devs are able to figure out a way to fix it better than that though. With how ridiculous FFXI's threat system is, I can't imagine it's an easy task. Simply removing the enmity cap and giving PLDs more enmity on their abilities is not an elegant solution.

That aside, we need more than just enmity system refinements to make a tank job like PLD worth its slot in an alliance. On almost every single target in the game you'll still be better off with DDs in DT sets than spending an alliance slot on a PLD, as the DD is performing multiple functions. PLD's DD output needs to be enhanced to a point where it isn't a determent to have them in the group, as a way to allow the DDs to remain in their actual gear for an extended period while the PLD is also soaking up damage more efficiently.

We also need sweeping changes to the way monster AoEs work, the small change we have had is not enough to make a single tank worthwhile as AoEs are still enough to cripple anything close to the enemy. AoEs need to either be more scarce than they currently are, or they need to have significantly diminished damage on any target that isn't the primary target.

Opening the door to every fight being a tank and spank won't be acceptable either, so balancing this all out between capable tank and spanks and other types of interesting mechanics in fights is probably going to be difficult as well.

I don't understand the purpose of having an enmity cap, or enmity decay. It's definitely not necessary.

When I played WoW, the enmity (hate) system was very simple. Tank jobs had abilities that did damage, and that damage was significantly weaker than damage from DD classes. However, the hate from their abilities was significantly higher than that of DD classes.

It was balanced in such a way that a tank with good gear could rotate his abilities to just barely not be able to hold hate over well-geared DD's. But there were abilities that a couple DD could use to transfer some hate to the tank (similar to Sneak Attack) and there were also ways in which some DD could lower their hate. By using the SA-like abilities at the beginning of the fight, the DD could basically all engage right after the tank did.

Taunt was also an ability that every tank class had that would immediately put them at the top of the hate list (they would receive even hate with whoever was currently at the top) and the taunted target would be fixated on that person for 5 seconds which gave enough time for DD to slow down to adjust to a new tank (when necessary).

There was no cap to the hate list, so if you joined the fight late, it was basically impossible for you to get to the top of the hate list.

There was no enmity decay, although there was a fight where the boss would put a debuff on it's current target which would lower the amount of hate they were able to produce until the debuff wore off. That type of fight was definitely not the norm.

*Edit* Although tanks in WoW did very crappy damage, they were still worth bringing because there was an ENORMOUS difference in the amount of damage taken between a tank and any other DD. Raid fights were impossible without a tank (most fights required 2 tanks).

They'll "address" the issue with Adoulin's "ultimate" weapons.

PLD's Adoulin "Relic" will have a weapon skill attached that does miniscule damage but halves both enmity categories for party members in a small radius.

It will have an aftermath "sphere" (like afterglow, but separate) that retards the rate at which other party members accumulate enmity.

Apples and oranges. The difference in damage taken isn't extreme enough between a DD and a tank in FFXI to require a tank's presence, no matter how well they're going to be holding hate.

As for the necessity of a hate cap, does there have to be one? No. However this isn't a game where every DD have access to dozens of skills at a time to transfer their hate, nor do tanks have a limitless supply of enmity generating abilities. The DD's hate generation through damage will inevitably catch up to the PLD's Sentinel + Flash... quickly, at that, and no amount of enmity generation will surmount the elephant in the room: the tank is providing a fairly pointless service to the alliance overall. Forcing the DDs to limit their output when they don't have to would be unnecessarily lowering the efficiency of the kill.

I definitely agree with changing the current design of AoE's. One idea would be to make distance a large factor in determining the damage of an AoE. This would require DD to pay attention and move away when AoE's are coming so that they take minimal damage. Obviously people who are buffing on the fly would have to pay attention as well.

I liked the concept of Diablos where you had to pay attention to where you were standing because he would make certain parts of the floor disappear making you fall to your death if you didn't move in time. More fights with mechanics like this would force people to pay attention. (Although I imagine multi-boxers would not care for it)

I agree 100%.

The difference at 75, of course, was that DT gear wasn't so readily available, agas hurt, temps didn't exist, and mp was a precious commodity.

I've always wondered about a series of spells in Reprisal's line, even with a non-damaging one for supertanking (and then came Palisade).

What if one spell did damage (decemt damage), while another decreased the target's attack, while another spell slowed the target's attack. (Target being anything hitting the paladin's shield). All of these spells, besides a non-damaging one for supertanking, would cause, and not just enhance, enmity. I realize of course that getting hit is a direct contribute to hate loss, and this would be the opposite, but at the moment, things are not working.

WoW also gave their Warrior (a sword/board tank) an ability called Revenge, a long time ago. When the warrior blocked an attack, this ability was useable and did decent damage and great "threat".

Warrior also had ability called Vigilance (now removed I think) that transfered 10% of the target's enmity generation to the user, and reduced the target's damage taken by .. 3 or 10%.. I forget.

Cover could be tossed and put an ability in place that forces the target to focus the paladin for X seconds. (15 seconds, 5 minute cooldown?) It's an excellent tool for the start of a fight, where you provoke, flash, ws, and then maybe gain enough tp to WS again.

It would also be great after hate resets. Give ninjas and Monks the same ability basically, that's fine.

Prothescar is right. Putting 10k enmity on provoke doesn't fix the basic problem that paladin isn't needed. It's funny that they give pld some neat toys like Spirits Within (old days anyway), Atonement, and Requiescat. The job really is a tank too. It's fun eating nukes like candy and really pulling through to save the day, the only thing it can't do is hold hate and also, partly because of the former, meaningfully contribute to DPS.

And it's fine too if the most dangerous thing in some fights is the adds and that some monsters have no real threat table and that some fights can be tanked by a decent thf/nin.

Couple of potential, partial solutions:

A) Create monsters that a DD cannot efficiently tank and DD at the same time whatsoever.

B) Enhance the power of tanks to where they deal a reasonable amount of damage while providing sturdiness and a shield for the DDs to hide behind whilst letting loose with their maximum strength.


I personally prefer a game of cat and mouse rather than an omnipotent tank capable of holding hate forever and ever and taking next to no damage while the DPS can run wild, so I'd prefer a blend of both of these possible solutions: monsters so strong that it's difficult or nigh impossible for a DD to efficiently tank it, however the DDs wouldn't be able to run wild for the entirety of the fight as the enmity system isn't so open ended that a PLD can just spam all of his abilities as they come off cooldown so that the mob never looks away from him, all the while enhancing the tank's damage output by enough to make it a relevant source of DPS.

Accompanying this, it would be ideal to have boss fights include special mechanics like the aforementioned Diabolos fight. This would add flavor to fights and give a good way for DDs to have to intermittently disengage or otherwise occupy themselves and thus halt their generation of hate for a short time.

Hate cap should be there. It's fine to be there. It's something to aware of. The trouble is that good DD can't help but smack into it, and early. It's not their fault.

At 75, you could admonish an idiot, but they're not idiots anymore. If you want something dead remotely quickly, the DD are going to pull hate.

I read a post here once where someone said they wanted HNM to come back because HNM/sky/sea is what taught people to hold back. If you didn't learn that in Crawler's nest or on colibri, you weren't a bright bulb. XP loss, though I loathed it, also probably helped people catch on.

cover!

Okay I worded it poorly, didn't quite mean that!

Does cover even work with the newer AOE attacking mobs like iron giants?