The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Fasaga 2013-11-16 09:38:34
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Bravura is going to be ahead of Ukon a majority of the time, if you read the above discussion it takes a lot of tweaking to get Ukon to put out.

Edit: new page ;; so rather than above discussion, see prior page.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-16 09:44:21
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Odin.Jassik said: »
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build.
I'm just repeating what someone said earlier but if the new m.acc on Bravura allows Metatron Torment's defense down to stick consistently, that might be a worthwhile sacrifice for better alliance DPS.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-16 09:45:53
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Bravura is beating Ukon for DPS, yes, but it's not because of the -DT aftermath. That's what I was trying to say.
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By Siren.Kyte 2013-11-16 09:48:57
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Shiva.Onorgul said: »
I forgot to account for how proc rate changes the number of normal damage and double damage strikes. Sorry for being dense: you were right, Austar.

The other issue with doing that is that relic procs can only occur on the first hit of an attack round.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-16 09:52:08
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build.
I'm just repeating what someone said earlier but if the new m.acc on Bravura allows Metatron Torment's defense down to stick consistently, that might be a worthwhile sacrifice for better alliance DPS.

It could really depend on what other DEF down effects it does/doesn't stack with. From what I read a while back, even on fairly low level targets with a lot of Macc gear, the added effect either didn't stick at all or was heavily resisted. It would have to be pretty reliable to be worth using.

Siren.Kyte said: »
Shiva.Onorgul said: »
I forgot to account for how proc rate changes the number of normal damage and double damage strikes. Sorry for being dense: you were right, Austar.

The other issue with doing that is that relic procs can only occur on the first hit of an attack round.

The trade-off being that you don't have to use Ukko's to activate the OD2.5. It seems so strange to consider not using Ukko's as an advantage.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-16 09:58:42
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Quote:
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.

Pathetic is too strong a word. It's not as good as the other two but it's not far behind once you factor the 40% increase into it. 2.75 fTP 60% STR and 40% damage bonus (can be compared as 3.85 fTP) vs Ukko's 3.0 fTP and Upheavals 4.0 fTP . Definitely not used as a primary WS but if you have to pop it for "tank mode" then it's not a great DPS loss.

Now about that tank mode, 20% DT is pretty huge. With Shellra V your almost caped on MDT, after factoring in stuff like twilight or mol mantle then you'll be well over MDT cap. PDT cap would only require 30% which is piss easy to get while maintaining capped haste and a 6-hit (haven't tried a 5-hit capped DT build yet). The extra accuracy ends up making up for what you'd normally lose going from TP -> DT set. So essentially you trade some DPS loss for becoming a juggernaut that just laughs and the MB and won't die. Fairly useful tool to have around.
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By Carbuncle.Tyleron 2013-11-16 10:35:24
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.

Pathetic is too strong a word. It's not as good as the other two but it's not far behind once you factor the 40% increase into it. 2.75 fTP 60% STR and 40% damage bonus (can be compared as 3.85 fTP) vs Ukko's 3.0 fTP and Upheavals 4.0 fTP . Definitely not used as a primary WS but if you have to pop it for "tank mode" then it's not a great DPS loss.

Now about that tank mode, 20% DT is pretty huge. With Shellra V your almost caped on MDT, after factoring in stuff like twilight or mol mantle then you'll be well over MDT cap. PDT cap would only require 30% which is piss easy to get while maintaining capped haste and a 6-hit (haven't tried a 5-hit capped DT build yet). The extra accuracy ends up making up for what you'd normally lose going from TP -> DT set. So essentially you trade some DPS loss for becoming a juggernaut that just laughs and the MB and won't die. Fairly useful tool to have around.

Totally agree with the above. Just would add that MT in low buff situations really is decent compared to the other two. As mentioned above the situations were the dt matters are rare in alliance play, so it really comes down to how much Ukon pulls ahead (obviously conquer is king) or if u do alot of events low man where u might use the dt more often. (still rare but at least more common the full alliance.)

Frankly would be interested in knowing how close the following are:

AM1 ukon v brav

and by how much brav gets stomped on:

AM3 ukon v brav

Edit anyone know if the macc has noticibly impacted the def down down resists, if it is is consistently landing imo that would really make brav a stronger contender.
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By Fasaga 2013-11-16 10:47:25
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Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.

Pathetic is too strong a word. It's not as good as the other two but it's not far behind once you factor the 40% increase into it. 2.75 fTP 60% STR and 40% damage bonus (can be compared as 3.85 fTP) vs Ukko's 3.0 fTP and Upheavals 4.0 fTP . Definitely not used as a primary WS but if you have to pop it for "tank mode" then it's not a great DPS loss.

Now about that tank mode, 20% DT is pretty huge. With Shellra V your almost caped on MDT, after factoring in stuff like twilight or mol mantle then you'll be well over MDT cap. PDT cap would only require 30% which is piss easy to get while maintaining capped haste and a 6-hit (haven't tried a 5-hit capped DT build yet). The extra accuracy ends up making up for what you'd normally lose going from TP -> DT set. So essentially you trade some DPS loss for becoming a juggernaut that just laughs and the MB and won't die. Fairly useful tool to have around.

Totally agree with the above. Just would add that MT in low buff situations really is decent compared to the other two. As mentioned above the situations were the dt matters are rare in alliance play, so it really comes down to how much Ukon pulls ahead (obviously conquer is king) or if u do alot of events low man where u might use the dt more often. (still rare but at least more common the full alliance.)

Frankly would be interested in knowing how close the following are:

AM1 ukon v brav

and by how much brav gets stomped on:

AM3 ukon v brav

Edit anyone know if the macc has noticibly impacted the def down down resists, if it is is consistently landing imo that would really make brav a stronger contender.
If you have both Torpor and 1x madrigal Ukon is ahead by ~3% w/ AM1 and 10% w/ AM3. However, if you lack either torpor or a madrigal bravura is ahead even if you have AM3 up on Ukon.
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By Carbuncle.Tyleron 2013-11-16 11:08:40
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Fasaga said: »
Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.

Pathetic is too strong a word. It's not as good as the other two but it's not far behind once you factor the 40% increase into it. 2.75 fTP 60% STR and 40% damage bonus (can be compared as 3.85 fTP) vs Ukko's 3.0 fTP and Upheavals 4.0 fTP . Definitely not used as a primary WS but if you have to pop it for "tank mode" then it's not a great DPS loss.

Now about that tank mode, 20% DT is pretty huge. With Shellra V your almost caped on MDT, after factoring in stuff like twilight or mol mantle then you'll be well over MDT cap. PDT cap would only require 30% which is piss easy to get while maintaining capped haste and a 6-hit (haven't tried a 5-hit capped DT build yet). The extra accuracy ends up making up for what you'd normally lose going from TP -> DT set. So essentially you trade some DPS loss for becoming a juggernaut that just laughs and the MB and won't die. Fairly useful tool to have around.

Totally agree with the above. Just would add that MT in low buff situations really is decent compared to the other two. As mentioned above the situations were the dt matters are rare in alliance play, so it really comes down to how much Ukon pulls ahead (obviously conquer is king) or if u do alot of events low man where u might use the dt more often. (still rare but at least more common the full alliance.)

Frankly would be interested in knowing how close the following are:

AM1 ukon v brav

and by how much brav gets stomped on:

AM3 ukon v brav

Edit anyone know if the macc has noticibly impacted the def down down resists, if it is is consistently landing imo that would really make brav a stronger contender.
If you have both Torpor and 1x madrigal Ukon is ahead by ~3% w/ AM1 and 10% w/ AM3. However, if you lack either torpor or a madrigal bravura is ahead even if you have AM3 up on Ukon.

So fair to say Ukon is ~5% better in alliance play against curent content? Probably even in low man.

Guess only question would be def down which would even it out a bit.
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By Fasaga 2013-11-16 11:18:57
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Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Fasaga said: »
Carbuncle.Tyleron said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Quote:
In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.

Pathetic is too strong a word. It's not as good as the other two but it's not far behind once you factor the 40% increase into it. 2.75 fTP 60% STR and 40% damage bonus (can be compared as 3.85 fTP) vs Ukko's 3.0 fTP and Upheavals 4.0 fTP . Definitely not used as a primary WS but if you have to pop it for "tank mode" then it's not a great DPS loss.

Now about that tank mode, 20% DT is pretty huge. With Shellra V your almost caped on MDT, after factoring in stuff like twilight or mol mantle then you'll be well over MDT cap. PDT cap would only require 30% which is piss easy to get while maintaining capped haste and a 6-hit (haven't tried a 5-hit capped DT build yet). The extra accuracy ends up making up for what you'd normally lose going from TP -> DT set. So essentially you trade some DPS loss for becoming a juggernaut that just laughs and the MB and won't die. Fairly useful tool to have around.

Totally agree with the above. Just would add that MT in low buff situations really is decent compared to the other two. As mentioned above the situations were the dt matters are rare in alliance play, so it really comes down to how much Ukon pulls ahead (obviously conquer is king) or if u do alot of events low man where u might use the dt more often. (still rare but at least more common the full alliance.)

Frankly would be interested in knowing how close the following are:

AM1 ukon v brav

and by how much brav gets stomped on:

AM3 ukon v brav

Edit anyone know if the macc has noticibly impacted the def down down resists, if it is is consistently landing imo that would really make brav a stronger contender.
If you have both Torpor and 1x madrigal Ukon is ahead by ~3% w/ AM1 and 10% w/ AM3. However, if you lack either torpor or a madrigal bravura is ahead even if you have AM3 up on Ukon.

So fair to say Ukon is ~5% better in alliance play against curent content? Probably even in low man.

Guess only question would be def down which would even it out a bit.
This is pretty accurately described in this post.

Phoenix.Suji said: »
Asura.Fiv said: »
... to prove that the statement of "119 ukon is garbage, save your gil and buy razorfury" is bull
Setting out to prove something kind of junks up your data from the start. My questions about buffs were pretty relevant to the results of this data, especially regarding not having Ionis and leaving Samurai Roll at a value of 4 (which would never happen). Whether or not it's fair to give Ukon AM3 + Upheaval spam is pretty debatable too. As I pointed out above on bosses, you're only going to realistically benefit from AM3 twice per boss run and possibly even once since CORs don't need to use Wild Card much anymore.

All your roll values are kind of wild too. For example, 35% Chaos is Lucky with a DRK in the party as well. All of this stuff matters. In my spreadsheet right now with with a similar buff setup, I have Ukon AM1+Ukko at 1055.872 and Razorfury+Upheaval at 1023.683 for only a 3% difference with your hax roll value. If I use something more reasonable, a lucky roll with no DRK bonus (25%), the gap increases in Ukon's favor to 5.7%, which is not surprising since my current setup has it spamming Ukko's.

It's cool that you are posting numbers and I'm not intending to be disparaging but everything little thing really matters and raise and lower the gap between these two weapons pretty significantly depending on how we model them. The "ukon sucks" sentiment comes from the fact that many of us feel that this closeness should not be possible. Ukon99 + all the new *** is a massive undertaking and it should really be no contest regardless of how many twists and turns I do on a spreadsheet knob.

On top of that, Ukon takes so much TLC to get into its sweet spot that it hardly seems worth it when you consider the performance of Ragnarok which great without much hassle. All you really need is a Resolution macro and you're good.

To elaborate on what I mean by TLC, here are some assumptions to set up an example scenario:
- Average boss run takes about 6 minutes
- An Ukon user can reasonably get off one beneficial AM3, which would be at the start of the fight from storing TP on adds.
- My spreadsheet time per WS round is 7.1 seconds. There will be some human error and you'll have some JAs so I'll say 8 seconds per WS round averaged throughout the fight.

Then we end up doing something like:
* StoreTP to 300 on an add
* Ukko's for AM3 for 90 sec
* This gives us enough time for 10 Upheavals, and we storetp on the 11th
* Ukko's for AM1 for 30 seconds
* This gives us enough time for 3 Upheavals and AM should wear timely

300 seconds to start, 90 consumed by the one AM1, that leaves 270 seconds for 9 AM1 activations. One Ukko's and 10 Upheavals per AM3, one Ukko's and 3 Upheavals per each nine of the AM1. for a total of 10 Ukko's and 37 Upheavals and 10 Ukko's, or a 1:3.7 ratio.

That seems like a super high WS count to me but being precise isn't really my point here. It's just that if we take the lazy approach and say "Ukon is only AM1+Ukko's", then it will look pretty damn bad on paper. AM3+Upheaval performs well but is equally bad to use as a model. The real answer is somewhere in between and I'm not sure the best way to get an accurate blend (Mot's basic blend isn't sufficient).
When all of your buffs and debuffs are up then yes, ukon is winning. But over the course of the full fight do you have max rolls/songs/debuffs? unlikely. Saying Ukon is 5% better doesn't take into account that buffs and debuffs are going to drop at some point and when that happens ukon falls behind anywhere from 5-20%. The the overall competition is so close it is pretty hard to determine and I don't think there will be a clear answer. You can manipulate the spreadsheets to have either one pull ahead so it's really just a matter of circumstance.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-16 12:10:14
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Fasaga said: »
When all of your buffs and debuffs are up then yes, ukon is winning. But over the course of the full fight do you have max rolls/songs/debuffs? unlikely. Saying Ukon is 5% better doesn't take into account that buffs and debuffs are going to drop at some point and when that happens ukon falls behind anywhere from 5-20%. The the overall competition is so close it is pretty hard to determine and I don't think there will be a clear answer. You can manipulate the spreadsheets to have either one pull ahead so it's really just a matter of circumstance.
Perhaps my wall of text was too big, but I more or less said this in my post in the end. I just think it's kind of *** up that ANY spreadsheet tweakery could put Razorfury so close to Ukon, considering the gargantuan effort required for Ukon compared to Razorfury.

While I'm definitely whining a little, my intention is also just to raise awareness for others in the same boat-- I doubt many expected the line between Ukon and RF to be so close in some cases. I was saving to upgrade mine (had 59 boulders) but promptly sold them when I realized these issues. I may upgrade it later if boulders get cheap enough but, personally, my character would benefit more by working on other weapons first.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-16 12:37:11
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the main problem is - there is no real balance and SE for the most part shouldn't of even bothered updating some weapons to 119 - like when you work out the 100s of millions and time spent vs soa and delve weapons its a big slap in the face to most REM ppls - not saying REMs should be MILES ahead but more than 3 % for the effort.

must be nice for SE smoking w/e ***gets them that high.
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By Kyler 2013-11-16 12:51:56
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I think most people belittle the difference between "5%".

#1 while this isn't true for everyone most people see, oh I parsed 15% and they parsed 10% from scoreboard and/or kparser. Well that's actually someone doing 150% the damage you are, or 1.5x the damage. Obviously that's significant because that means every 2 optimal DDs replaces a person which can be substituted for support or just doing bigger things with lower numbers.

#2 yeah SE is kinda blowing it from both sides because they have tried to implement this "ilvl" thing like other games have, however they don't seem to understand that higher level doesn't mean better. Armadaberk is a good example. They just have no idea about the significant of a couple stats different here or there. This means when the certain jobs don't have the right buffs or very specific buffs other jobs/weapon combos are light years ahead of them.

As someone with multiple 99 empys and relics that I have completed through the different stages of the game I don't really see it as a slap in the face. ***is already too easy as it is and making relics easily and completely destroy delve stuff instantly with an update would have made the game even more boring for the people who still need something to do.

Edit: also if you don't understand the gains from empyrean aftermath then you are vastly misinformed about the difference between razor fury and ukon. People have been doing this forever. Omg my "insert level here" "insert weapon here" only does 5k ws when my "some other easily obtained weapon" does 8k on average.

#eyeballers
#doesntknowhataveragemeans

Rag and bravura have always had more epeen ws numbers because of reso and higher base dmg. And guess what?! Razorfury has higher base dmg, upheaval has always been a more consistent weapon skill so of course you are going to have higher numbers.

Ukons advantage has always been white dmg. In fact every empyrean save vera and maybe situationally Almace have relied solely on insane white dmg. Epeen ws numbers do not a good DD make
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2013-11-16 13:26:05
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Kyler said: »
I think most people belittle the difference between "5%".

#1 while this isn't true for everyone most people see, oh I parsed 15% and they parsed 10% from scoreboard and/or kparser. Well that's actually someone doing 150% the damage you are, or 1.5x the damage.

oh god lol
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By Carbuncle.Tyleron 2013-11-16 15:07:17
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Carbuncle.Anesthesia said: »
Kyler said: »
I think most people belittle the difference between "5%".

#1 while this isn't true for everyone most people see, oh I parsed 15% and they parsed 10% from scoreboard and/or kparser. Well that's actually someone doing 150% the damage you are, or 1.5x the damage.

oh god lol

Kyler I am assuming that your use of 5% in your point number 1 was coincidental as coments regarding 5% difference are comparing weaps not parce. Basically it would be ukon 20% brav 19%.
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By Kyler 2013-11-16 16:07:19
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It doesn't matter? A parse is just an extrapolation of the dps people get from spreadsheeting if there were no human errors and buffs mobs etc never changed. I was referring to parses not weapon difference my bad, so yes in that case 5% is 5% and not 150%. My point however is still valid. If you think razorfury is only 3% behind 119 ukon/rag/bravura because it has 12 more base dmg....
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-16 18:36:46
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It doesn't even seem like you read the thread.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-17 05:54:12
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Ok I think the consensus is Conq > Rag / Bravura / Ukon > RF as a general rule of thumb. Each has it's own pro's and con's so I guess it's down to the individual user. I have a 99 Bravura and Rag but no Ukon / Conq so I'll be upgrading both Rag and Bravura to 119. If someone had an Ukon but no Rag / Bravura then they should just upgrade the Ukon instead of making one of the other two. Or they could focus on the real winner and make a Conq. In any case I don't think anyone here would fault someone for making their weapon of choice 119, they are all valid.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-17 08:33:18
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The thing is, unless you're going for a conq, the other options are often so close to Razorfury, you may as well have a weapon with some kind of unique use. Bravura obviously fills that slot, but Rag does as well. Resolution, when fully buffed, is more powerful than any Gaxe WS and a superior MS WS. You really could be nearly as effective as a Bravura/Ukon WAR with Razorfury and Ragnarok. Razor for lower buffs, Rag for higher and MS.

Obviously if you already have ukon/bravura 99, there's very little reason to go out and BUILD another weapon, but for those 85/90 ukon holders, unlocking UF and building a 119 Rag is likely the quickest route to very nearly the same end.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-17 08:48:49
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Asura.Azeran said: »
I would think yes conq is top but as far as it goes I wouldn't see why rag would be grouped granted its a great weapon for war but it has its 8wn standing in a war arsenal ergo great sword should also be a weapon war would look into obtaining that being said my questi8n was more foc6sed towards great axes I think now looking where we stand bravura is one of the top notch weap8ns again evensometimes surpassing Yukon in a non zerg situation and with the added stats and accuracy it could very well beat ukon in some situations de9pendant on gear and other variables

WTF ... is this even english? I'm not one to harp on how people type but at least attempt to communicate properly. I don't know if your making a statement or asking a question.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-17 09:58:53
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Asura.Azeran said: »
I would think yes conq is top but as far as it goes I wouldn't see why rag would be grouped granted its a great weapon for war but it has its 8wn standing in a war arsenal ergo great sword should also be a weapon war would look into obtaining that being said my questi8n was more foc6sed towards great axes I think now looking where we stand bravura is one of the top notch weap8ns again evensometimes surpassing Yukon in a non zerg situation and with the added stats and accuracy it could very well beat ukon in some situations de9pendant on gear and other variables
Translation into standard English:
"I would think that while, yes, Conqueror is the top option, I wouldn't discount Ragnarok by grouping it with Bravura and Ukonvasara. Granted, it is a great weapon in its own right, but it has a unique place in a Warrior's arsenal being that it is a Great Sword and thus gives access to Resolution.

That being said, my question was more focused towards the ranking of Great Axes. I think that Bravura is once again one of the top notch weapons, possibly even surpassing Ukonvasara in non-zerg situations (depending on gear and other variables)."

So the curiously literate illiterate is basically just repeating what other people have said.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-17 18:55:21
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Asura.Azeran said: »
Tablet correction was on deleted words I typed wrong and turned words into new words but what the guy had said is what I was try7nguyen to say and I am far from illiterate I speak proper English the same as you yes I just reread that and it makes no sense but it was not what I had or7finally written and no I was not making a statement I was asking if bravura is considered a top notch weapon again instead of having to hear lolbravura

And y'all come back now ya hear? Can you understand that?

Third time's the charm?
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By Bismarck.Llewelyn 2013-11-17 18:56:08
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Asura.Azeran said: »
try7nguyen
wut
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-17 19:03:12
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Asura.Azeran said: »
Bismarck.Llewelyn said: »
Asura.Azeran said: »
try7nguyen
wut
Supposed to be trying auto correct issue sorry
my auto correct uses real words
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2013-11-17 20:02:01
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nguyen is a vietnamese last name
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 Lakshmi.Leaucant
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By Lakshmi.Leaucant 2013-11-24 06:40:31
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So what would i be aiming for as far as the best in slots for Ukko's furry on a razorfurry? can anyone give me a set please
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-24 08:39:29
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Lakshmi.Leaucant said: »
So what would i be aiming for as far as the best in slots for Ukko's furry on a razorfurry? can anyone give me a set please

Ejiin already did. Page one of this thread.
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