The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Izilder
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-14 07:24:16
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riding AM3 + Upheaval will gain best returns it seems (9 %).. but i have not had a chance to test it yet.
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By Leviathan.Syagin 2013-11-14 07:49:09
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Leviathan.Egonn said: »
Well my new Ukon is straight garbage. I should have just stayed with Razorfury. WTF, I mean it's not even noticeably different damage.
This is very disappointing to hear... I pray that maybe it's will take a reajustment to your gear sets or something becaue lord knows I love that weapon and I am praying to the man above this weapon will bounce back.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-14 08:25:52
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Yes, Ukko's Ukon vs Upheaval Razorfury isn't a large difference. But nothing is stopping you from using upheaval after getting AM3 up. And those who don't have upheaval, its going to be a pretty big increase, 10-15% would be a good estimate. And those who are considering upgrading Ukon also have the option of dropping Upheaval, taking the small increase to their WAR, and gaining potentially quite a bit on another job.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-14 10:20:40
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
But nothing is stopping you from using upheaval after getting AM3 up.
I'm not really disagreeing but losing ~two WS to do that could very well not be worth it these days without the benefit of Dusty Wings.

That being said, you could pretty easily get two AM3 per fracture boss run: one from storing TP on adds beforehand and one from Wild Card (if people still use that). Three minutes of AM3 is still only half of the average fight duration though.
 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-14 10:26:59
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Spreadsheets may be a little out dated but just adding the new Ukon and making a quick gear set, it already comes ahead of the best posted Razorfury sets, atleast with Tojil set as the target. Its about 30 dps ahead of Razorfury with AM1 on, and 120 dps ahead of Razorfury with AM3 on, and thats without even making proper gear sets.

The most important bit however, is no more ugly level 20 looking ah bought great axe.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-14 17:16:21
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
Yes, Ukko's Ukon vs Upheaval Razorfury isn't a large difference. But nothing is stopping you from using upheaval after getting AM3 up. And those who don't have upheaval, its going to be a pretty big increase, 10-15% would be a good estimate. And those who are considering upgrading Ukon also have the option of dropping Upheaval, taking the small increase to their WAR, and gaining potentially quite a bit on another job.

that's an interesting point about saving your merits for another job, but isn't MS the main advantage to bringing war at all? without upheaval or resolution i would think war loses it's usefulness in a lot of ways.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-14 18:17:11
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Quetzalcoatl.Stylesz said: »
So Conq > Bravura > Ukon(am1) > Razor now then i assume ? Bravura has a few base dmg less than Razorfury but more skill, acc, 20% odd and doesn't need to use ukko's.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Conq > Ukon(Any aftermath) > Bravura > Razorfury, keep in mind the strength of empy ODD, higher proc rate even with AM1 and can proc on double or triple attacks, relics can't. On top of that the one thing Bravura has going for it is accuracy, which is kind of moot on anything but the new BC on difficult. I entered all the stats of the 119 great axes in the spreadsheets, and a lot of the new gear, but im too lazy to make ideal sets for each one right now to figure it out.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-14 21:55:49
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I did a lot of playing around now, and just to get some comparisons i went ahead and made gear sets for each great axe with the same buffs and same weaponskill sets.

Race:Hume Food:RCB Target:Tojil Ionis:Off DayfTP:Off
Buffs: Berserk, Aggressor, Haste, Boost-STR, March x2, Madrigal x2, Minuet x2,
Chaos Roll(35%), Fighter's Roll(17%), Rogue's Roll(11%crit), Sam Roll(4stp), Torpor, Frailty
Notes: Armada hauberk has 6 sTP and 3 DA, Valk Breastplate 3 TA, Cizin all DA+2%
-I did the xhits with some room for error, using 3 hit ws so if 1 hit of upheaval misses, it still works.
-I won't make any claim to these being the best gear sets, because i didn't spend that much time on each.
-These sets do not make use of Ionis bonuses such as haste.

Razorfury 5-Hit
Restraint Up: 1130.024
Restraint Down: 1104.844
ItemSet 315522

Bravura 5-Hit
Restraint Up: 1185.494
Restraint Down: 1161.250
ItemSet 315518

Ukonvasara 6-Hit (Using Ukko for AM, Upheaval otherwise)
-The xhit for this set has a TP overage that allows the xhit to work for Ukko+Upheaval easily.
Restraint Up: 1229.952(AM1), 1321.163(AM3)
ItemSet 315520
Restraint Down: 1195.638(AM1), 1287.588(AM3)
ItemSet 315519

This is where stuff gets interesting, whats really better for Conqueror, for the previous weapons upheaval generally comes out ahead without blood rage but some tinkering led me to this outcome.

Conqueror 5-Hit (AM3, Claymore Grip, Ukko's Fury)
-The xhit on this assumes 2 hits land, its a safe bet with AM3.
Restraint Up: 1343.940
-Ukko's Fury Average: 6099
ItemSet 315524
Restraint Down: 1306.361
-Ukko's Fury Average: 5717
ItemSet 315526

Conqueror 5-Hit (AM3, Duplus Grip, Upheaval)
Restraint Up: 1333.592
-Upheaval Average: 6033
ItemSet 315528
Restraint Down: 1301.480
-Upheaval Average: 5656
ItemSet 315527

Expect different results with hunters in place of rogue's roll if its ever needed.
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By Fasaga 2013-11-14 22:21:21
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Stylesz said: »
So Conq > Bravura > Ukon(am1) > Razor now then i assume ? Bravura has a few base dmg less than Razorfury but more skill, acc, 20% odd and doesn't need to use ukko's.

I'm thinking more along the lines of Conq > Ukon(Any aftermath) > Bravura > Razorfury, keep in mind the strength of empy ODD, higher proc rate even with AM1 and can proc on double or triple attacks, relics can't. On top of that the one thing Bravura has going for it is accuracy, which is kind of moot on anything but the new BC on difficult. I entered all the stats of the 119 great axes in the spreadsheets, and a lot of the new gear, but im too lazy to make ideal sets for each one right now to figure it out.
Another thing to consider is that when highly buffed, as your example above, ragnarok will be better than both ukon and bravura. However, as you start to strip away buffs, it doesn't take much to push bravura to the top of the three. Obv conq will tower over all three, but in my opinion bravura is the best OVERALL choice between ukon, bravura and ragnarok.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-14 22:30:06
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Quetzalcoatl.Stylesz said: »
So Conq > Bravura > Ukon(am1) > Razor now then i assume ? Bravura has a few base dmg less than Razorfury but more skill, acc, 20% odd and doesn't need to use ukko's.
Bravura's ODD only applies to the first hit of an attack round so its closer to ~13%

Odin.Jassik said: »
that's an interesting point about saving your merits for another job, but isn't MS the main advantage to bringing war at all? without upheaval or resolution i would think war loses it's usefulness in a lot of ways.
If you have resolution then you don't need upheaval anyways.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-14 22:42:08
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I'm lazy again, take this set, put rag and white tathlum in it for a 6 hit, restraint up dps of 1226.697 and restraint down dps 1199.226.
ItemSet 315522

Edit; I can't add Rag's 2.5x damage to the spreadsheet because it only has a spot for ODD%, so Ragnarok is actually better then those numbers indicated.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-15 12:51:33
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Asura.Fiv said: »
I did a lot of playing around now, and just to get some comparisons i went ahead and made gear sets for each great axe with the same buffs and same weaponskill sets.

Race:Hume Food:RCB Target:Tojil Ionis:Off DayfTP:Off
Buffs: Berserk, Aggressor, Haste, Boost-STR, March x2, Madrigal x2, Minuet x2,
Chaos Roll(35%), Fighter's Roll(17%), Rogue's Roll(11%crit), Sam Roll(4stp), Torpor, Frailty


Ukonvasara 6-Hit (Using Ukko for AM, Upheaval otherwise)
-The xhit for this set has a TP overage that allows the xhit to work for Ukko+Upheaval easily.
Restraint Up: 1229.952(AM1), 1321.163(AM3)
ItemSet 315520
Restraint Down: 1195.638(AM1), 1287.588(AM3)
ItemSet 315519


Expect different results with hunters in place of rogue's roll if its ever needed.


the war dps sheet is playing up for me via google docs atm - i had some questions on the above sets


1. windbuffet vs cetl belt on both sets
2. I dont like the idea of slow on a tp ring - what about Onerios or other alternative ?
3. Rav+2 muffs are definitely better than Cizin?
4. Do the above need a Sam Roll to work?
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-15 13:15:45
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I'm unable to reproduce your results-- would be easier if you uploaded your copy of the spreadsheet somewhere. I also don't understand why you have Ionis off, is there any relevant content currently where one wouldn't have Ionis? Maybe if you still spam Mul.

I'm guessing your "4stp" for SAM roll is a typo and you meant 40? Just 4 would be unlucky.

And sets that don't require the Store TP from Yaoyotl Helm will see a small boost with Quiahuiz Helm. I made another field before melee and WS dps are combined to modify melee DPS as DPS+DPS*DArate*.05, which should be accurate since this set has no QA or TA.

Your setup is also uncapped on attack-- not sure if that's intentional, but I'm just mentioning it since it's an important distinction (and probably a realistic scenario for Tojil due to aura). On the other bosses, it's much easier to cap and sets along those lines would be more realistic.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-15 13:18:46
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I doubt those are the best Ukon sets, i simply made some decent sets with the same buffs to provide a comparison of the great axes, since that was a question posted earlier. Which the answer about hierarchy is actually Conq > Ukon > Bravura > Razorfury.

Like i said, i doubt thats the best ukon set, but i'll answer you questions anyway.
1. Using windbuffet over celt in either of those sets without other changes wont cap haste.
2. You can use oneiros ring if you have MP merits sure, as i said prior these were made without the assumption ionis is on, so not everyone has 100 MP.
3. Yes, for that particular set with restraint up, af3+2 was better.
4. Yes, 4 stp from sam roll.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-15 14:33:49
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for feet am i best of using Whirpool Greaves when i dont have crit hit Buffs/JAs up?
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-15 14:37:11
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Edit; I can't add Rag's 2.5x damage to the spreadsheet because it only has a spot for ODD%, so Ragnarok is actually better then those numbers indicated.
Couldn't you just increase the percentage of ODD by 20% (.5/2.5) and get the same DPS result as the one you want? As a note, that means a 10% ODD rate becomes a 12% ODD rate, not 30%.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-15 14:40:40
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10% 2.5 Damage would be 15% ODD.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-15 15:16:42
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Asura.Izilder said: »
for feet am i best of using Whirpool Greaves when i dont have crit hit Buffs/JAs up?
I feel like your missing the point of my post, which wasn't "hey use this gear set its the best for 119 Ukon".

My post was to simply provide examples of gear i used to determine a baseline for each great axe to determine the hierarchy of great axes now, to prove that the statement of "119 ukon is garbage, save your gil and buy razorfury" is bull, and to confirm what i believe, that bravura should likely fall somewhere between razorfury and ukon. I probably should have just not posted the gear sets at all and provided a conclusion.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-15 16:04:20
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
10% 2.5 Damage would be 15% ODD.
How do you figure? It's only a 25% increase in damage over standard double damage. I think I have gotten the denominator wrong above and the increase should be 25% instead of 20%.

Figure base damage is 100, so double is 200 and 2.5x is 250. In 10 hits, you hit 2500 damage at 2.5x. To get an equation built around 2x damage to 2500, you'd need and extra 2.5 hits (12.5%) to get the same effect. Arithmetic tends to twist and curl when I stare at it too long, so if I've figured wrong, I'd really like to know how.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-15 16:26:56
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you do 100 damage normal hit a 2.5 proc would be 250, so your only adding 150 which is 1.5 times extra damage.
the way you have it would be true if you added 250% instead of 150%.
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 Asura.Fiv
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-15 16:36:07
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
10% 2.5 Damage would be 15% ODD.
Isn't it 15% 2.5 damage?
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-11-15 16:38:01
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Asura.Fiv said: »
... to prove that the statement of "119 ukon is garbage, save your gil and buy razorfury" is bull
Setting out to prove something kind of junks up your data from the start. My questions about buffs were pretty relevant to the results of this data, especially regarding not having Ionis and leaving Samurai Roll at a value of 4 (which would never happen). Whether or not it's fair to give Ukon AM3 + Upheaval spam is pretty debatable too. As I pointed out above on bosses, you're only going to realistically benefit from AM3 twice per boss run and possibly even once since CORs don't need to use Wild Card much anymore.

All your roll values are kind of wild too. For example, 35% Chaos is Lucky with a DRK in the party as well. All of this stuff matters. In my spreadsheet right now with with a similar buff setup, I have Ukon AM1+Ukko at 1055.872 and Razorfury+Upheaval at 1023.683 for only a 3% difference with your hax roll value. If I use something more reasonable, a lucky roll with no DRK bonus (25%), the gap increases in Ukon's favor to 5.7%, which is not surprising since my current setup has it spamming Ukko's.

It's cool that you are posting numbers and I'm not intending to be disparaging but everything little thing really matters and raise and lower the gap between these two weapons pretty significantly depending on how we model them. The "ukon sucks" sentiment comes from the fact that many of us feel that this closeness should not be possible. Ukon99 + all the new *** is a massive undertaking and it should really be no contest regardless of how many twists and turns I do on a spreadsheet knob.

On top of that, Ukon takes so much TLC to get into its sweet spot that it hardly seems worth it when you consider the performance of Ragnarok which great without much hassle. All you really need is a Resolution macro and you're good.

To elaborate on what I mean by TLC, here are some assumptions to set up an example scenario:
- Average boss run takes about 6 minutes
- An Ukon user can reasonably get off one beneficial AM3, which would be at the start of the fight from storing TP on adds.
- My spreadsheet time per WS round is 7.1 seconds. There will be some human error and you'll have some JAs so I'll say 8 seconds per WS round averaged throughout the fight.

Then we end up doing something like:
* StoreTP to 300 on an add
* Ukko's for AM3 for 90 sec
* This gives us enough time for 10 Upheavals, and we storetp on the 11th
* Ukko's for AM1 for 30 seconds
* This gives us enough time for 3 Upheavals and AM should wear timely

300 seconds to start, 90 consumed by the one AM1, that leaves 270 seconds for 9 AM1 activations. One Ukko's and 10 Upheavals per AM3, one Ukko's and 3 Upheavals per each nine of the AM1. for a total of 10 Ukko's and 37 Upheavals and 10 Ukko's, or a 1:3.7 ratio.

That seems like a super high WS count to me but being precise isn't really my point here. It's just that if we take the lazy approach and say "Ukon is only AM1+Ukko's", then it will look pretty damn bad on paper. AM3+Upheaval performs well but is equally bad to use as a model. The real answer is somewhere in between and I'm not sure the best way to get an accurate blend (Mot's basic blend isn't sufficient).
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-11-15 16:38:11
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Asura.Fiv said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
10% 2.5 Damage would be 15% ODD.
Isn't it 15% 2.5 damage?
I don't know the proc rate, I was just stating that 10% 2.5x damage would be 15% 2x damage
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2013-11-15 16:47:46
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I forgot to account for how proc rate changes the number of normal damage and double damage strikes. Sorry for being dense: you were right, Austar.
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By Asura.Fiv 2013-11-15 16:49:46
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Phoenix.Suji said: »
lucky roll with no DRK bonus (25%), the gap increases in Ukon's favor to 5.7%, whic
I don't think i ever changed the chaos value or double checked it after i downloaded the spreadsheet, so i suppose thats my bad.

However, its hard to trust cor mules and pickup cors on asura, i go with the minimum to not get screwed by it and worse case i can use carb instead of sam roll to accommodate when its not there.

As far as ionis goes, i myself generally make both ionis up and ionis down sets and just toggle them with s/c but i chose to just assume not everything we fight is in adoulin, though i suppose outside of the new BC on difficult, everything else is.

Your right about most of that, i wasn't trying to say these are the best buffs or gear sets, i just wanted to indicate with similar buffs everything was fairly close, and ukon in fact is not just a waste of time. I simply had too much time on my hands and overcomplicated it i suppose.

Edit; trouble quoting, posting from my phone.
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-11-16 03:59:13
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perhaps starting with am3 - then am3 (with wing) then am2 (unless cor gives am3 back) is best way to go for uko on bosses?

as AM1 is not that great how would AM 2 do over time, after an initial am3 at start.


i made my Uko to 119 as it actually looks great and i had already done the hard work spending a ***ton to 99 anyways - it is a side / slight upgrade to Raz War just as SE said REMs would be (some got a better deal than others - for now perhaps..)

so on that note i just want to make the most of what i have gear set wise now.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-11-16 07:54:46
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Quote:
Your setup is also uncapped on attack-- not sure if that's intentional, but I'm just mentioning it since it's an important distinction (and probably a realistic scenario for Tojil due to aura). On the other bosses, it's much easier to cap and sets along those lines would be more realistic.

People make this assumption ~FAR~ too often. Capped attack isn't happening nearly as often as people think. Delve MB's typically have 1900~2000 defense and your relying heavily on defense down debuffs to get it down to a level where capping is even possible. You can always count on 20% from Dia III + LS and usually 13% from frailty, after that it's a toss up. Angon is 90s duration with a 3min recast but sometimes the NM the can wipe it's debuffs. The geo debuff relies on a "pet" staying alive throughout the fight with a NM that does high damage aoe attacks, it's going to get knocked down and it may take a bit before the geo gets it back up. And while I've heard of COR's doing /DNC to apply steps I've never actually seen it used, and I've done a metric sh!t ton of delve runs.

So while it's safe to assume your gonna have decently high attack, setting pDiff to 2.25 and accuracy to 95% and then forgetting about this is a very bad idea.
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By Asura.Azeran 2013-11-16 08:52:52
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correct me if I'm wrong cause I haven't played in a while but wouldn't a well off war with bravura beat the run of the mill wars with Yukon that are all over my server and on top of that the versatility of having the pdt mitigation and the ability of causing massive damage at the same time would beat out an ukon war in my personal opinion I mean the ability to cap haste and use very few pieces versus an Yukon war needing most or all gear slots to have the same thing the bravura wins hands down
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-11-16 08:58:31
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Asura.Azeran said: »
correct me if I'm wrong cause I haven't played in a while but wouldn't a well off war with bravura beat the run of the mill wars with Yukon that are all over my server and on top of that the versatility of having the pdt mitigation and the ability of causing massive damage at the same time would beat out an ukon war in my personal opinion I mean the ability to cap haste and use very few pieces versus an Yukon war needing most or all gear slots to have the same thing the bravura wins hands down

In order to get the -DT effect, you have to use MT, which is pretty pathetic for damage, that cuts into the gains of being able to maintain a more DD oriented DT build. For the situations that warrant it, it's great, but there aren't that many of those situations in general. Bravura's main advantage is the added accuracy when it's needed.
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