The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 14:26:52
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Asura.Geriond said: »
My group had 100% of Tidal Guillotines on V20 OHKO one of our melees until we started putting up Scherzo, at which point he started surviving basically every time. I don't think it goes off of pre-scherzo damage.

100% guaranteed it does, it's Tyrant Tusk if you remember dealing with that back in Abyssea era. We used Scherzo in that fight and randomly Ngai would Tidal our MNK dead at full HP. Switched to Mpaca and that stopped happening. The deaths were only 1/9 but they were random and annoying as heck cause we could be doing everything right and Ngai just rolls good on resist check.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:31:48
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That scenario doesn't mean that Scherzo doesn't affect it; TG could have just not been doing enough damage to trigger Scherzo, which seems likely if the damage was low enough that Mpaca's MDB alone was enough to stop it from killing the monk.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 14:41:02
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Asura.Geriond said: »
That scenario doesn't mean that Scherzo doesn't affect it; TG could have been doing more than 50% but less than 75% on the Monk and thus not triggering scherzo, and Mpaca made it start doing less than 50%.

Except that it was like that with a very wide range of jobs, buffs and effects, and Scherzo never protected against it. The one and only thing that worked was deliberately gearing the hybrid TP set to have MDB.

Anyhow enough derailing, it was an example where reducing maximum damage is more important then reducing average damage. It was given because somebody asked about it, not because another person wanted to measure *** sizes.

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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:43:06
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Except that it was like that with a very wide range of jobs, buffs and effects, and Scherzo never protected against it. The one and only thing that worked was deliberately gearing the hybrid TP set to have MDB.
And yet my experience is the exact opposite. A more rigorous test that removes all other factors and where Tidal's damage is known exactly would probably be needed to prove it conclusively (probably on Tchakka).
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By SimonSes 2022-03-18 14:44:21
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Asura.Geriond said: »
That scenario doesn't mean that Scherzo doesn't affect it; TG could have just not been doing enough damage to trigger Scherzo, which seems likely if the damage was low enough that Mpaca's MDB alone was enough to stop it from killing the monk.

With how he described it, it doesn't make sense at all anyway. He basically said that if you have 1501/3000 HP or less, than every Tidal doing more than 2 dmg will kill you, which I think isn't the case at all. AFAIK damage done needs to be more than 50% of your HP (I guess current?).

Not to mention his MDB theory completely doesn't fit in in his Tidal theory too. Because even assuming mdb lowered damage by lets say 14%, then Tidal could still easily do enough damage to drop you below half HP if by his theory it only needs to do like 100 damage if you are at 1550/3000HP

Saevel talks about many things like they are facts, when it's only his opinion and half of that doesn't make sense and contradict itself, which I pointed so many times, that he blocked me, because his ego couldn't stand it.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:46:49
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Melees are generally topped off (or nearly so if not explicitly controlling the crab) for each WS on Ngai unless something is going wrong, so I don't see an issue with that part.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 14:52:06
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It's a very old attack from Abyssea days, Sobek used to spam it. All SE did was reuse it but as water instead of dark as it's element.

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sobek

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Tyrant_Tusk

Quote:
Tyrant Tusk: Conal AoE Darkness damage Resist Vs. Dark and Bio Bio. Inflicts instant KO to targets that would have been left under 50% of their maximum HP after calculating damage from this attack.

What makes Ngai specifically evil is he can reduce your Maximum HP from a regular attack and Pelagic Cleaver. Then if he use's Tidal right after the HP down effect is removed, it doesn't need to do much to kill you.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:53:23
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Even that line says after calculating damage, so...
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 14:57:30
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Even that line says after calculating damage, so...

And yet even with Scherzo we were randomly killing killed at full HP without any debuffs on. Drove us nuts for two weeks until our MNK switched out to Mpaca and instantly no more Tidal deaths.
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 14:59:58
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And once again, my experiences say the exact opposite. Just repeating over and over isn't going to prove it in such uncontrolled circumstances, especially when scherzo could just have not been proccing because TG damage was too low.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-18 15:00:07
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Asura.Geriond said: »
Melees are generally topped off (or nearly so if not explicitly controlling the crab) for each WS on Ngai unless something is going wrong, so I don't see an issue with that part.

If you are topped off and we assuming Tidal needs to do half of your HP and it needs to do at least 75% to catch for Scherzo reduction, then situation where Tidal wave damage would be enough to proc Scherzo and enough for Mpaca to lower that enough to do less than 50%HP is not possible at all, because Mpaca over Malignance is at most 21% reduction in damage, so 75% max HP damage would be reduced to around 59-60% of max HP damage.

In other words damage is high enough to proc Scherzo or low enough for mpaca mdb advantage to lower it below 50% and then. Cant be both. So if you believe Mpaca mdb lowers damage below 50%, then you can't say Tidal doesn't check for Scherzo, because damage is too low to even meet Scherzo requirement.

EDIT: I mean he post Tyrant Tusk info and applies it to Tidal Wave without ANY proofs of it working the same. Not to mention Todal Wave description on wiki is completely different and suggest that damage done needs to be over 50% HP, not player to be left under 50%HP and damage can be whatever.
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By Asura.Saevel 2022-03-18 15:01:30
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2022-03-18 15:04:51
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JP wiki's article on TG matches Tyrant Tusk's mechanics, so I'm inclined to believe Saevel is right on that part.

Another point in favor of Scherzo working is that after we started applying it, the Monk would still occasionally die to Tidal Guillotine (though more rarely than with Scherzo up). We eventually figured out that it was only killing him when he had Mantra up, and the only way for Mantra to make TG more likely to OHKO is if the increased max HP was causing TG's damage to drop out of Scherzo's trigger range. Once we had him stop using Mantra, we had zero TG deaths on anyone after that.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-18 15:10:28
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Asura.Geriond said: »
JP wiki's article on TG matches Tyrant Tusk's mechanics, so I'm inclined to believe Saevel is right on that part.

Then Saevel saying that Tidal doesn't check for Scherzo completely doesn't make sense. Because if 20% less damage (from switching to Mpaca) on Tidal was enough to save them, then with Malignance + Scherzo setup, damage on Tidal was never high enough to proc Scherzo, so you can't say that Scherzo doesn't get checked, if it's never triggered.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-03-18 18:04:08
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Asura.Saevel said: »
While the MEVA might cause average damage to be lower, MBD causes the maximum damage to be lower, which could be very important with high damage attacks that can do 70%+ of our HP. Of course WAR can't use Mpaca but its a good way to see the value of MBD for jobs like SAM, NIN, BLU and MNK.

I agree. MDB is a consistent smaller magical damage reduction, Meva is a chance of a resist resulting in even better magical damage mitigation. The guaranteed reduction of MDB may be safer, when you're talking about extremely deadly moves that can potentially 1-shot a DD or put them at very low HP if unresisted. And depending on the mob, it's just like physical evasion in that you might be floored anyway unless you're stacking massive amounts of Meva.

For WAR, it's honestly not as big of a deal since you have EVERYTHING on Sakpata: Meva, MDB, DT-. You get it all without having to choose.

Slight derail, but it's a more interesting discussion for the jobs that use Mpaca and Gleti's sets - which have (a) top tier MDB, (b) good but not BEST Meva (versus stuff like Kendatsuba +1, Turms +1, Nyame), and (c) only PDT-, not DT-. MNK or SAM in a more "hybrid" set have to choose between very similar offensive performance of Mpaca and Ken+1, where one piece has PDT- and significantly more MDB, and the other has no xDT- but high Meva. I prefer going for the more consistent magic damage reduction (and PDT), and rely on the healer to top me off rather than hope the Meva gives me a resist and have the healer needing to deal with "maybe it's tiny damage, maybe it really rocks the DD"... definitely made me feel a whole lot safer on SAM. Of course, that's more for hybrid sets anyway and if it was truly deadly for those jobs they'd just turtle up in Nyame/Maliganance gear for the DT-/Meva combo and worse offense. But again, no such issue for WAR since Sakpata does it all.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-18 18:38:31
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Slight derail, but it's a more interesting discussion for the jobs that use Mpaca and Gleti's sets - which have (a) top tier MDB, (b) good but not BEST Meva (versus stuff like Kendatsuba +1, Turms +1, Nyame), and (c) only PDT-, not DT-. MNK or SAM in a more "hybrid" set have to choose between very similar offensive performance of Mpaca and Ken+1, where one piece has PDT- and significantly more MDB, and the other has no xDT- but high Meva. I prefer going for the more consistent magic damage reduction (and PDT), and rely on the healer to top me off rather than hope the Meva gives me a resist and have the healer needing to deal with "maybe it's tiny damage, maybe it really rocks the DD"... definitely made me feel a whole lot safer on SAM. Of course, that's more for hybrid sets anyway and if it was truly deadly for those jobs they'd just turtle up in Nyame/Maliganance gear for the DT-/Meva combo and worse offense. But again, no such issue for WAR since Sakpata does it all.

MNK has Malignance which has DT, meva and 29mdb (sakpata has 39) and storeTP, acc, DEX and PDL for offense, so it's not that different than Sakpata.

Also it's kinda hard to even use full Mpaca against magic damage, because you obviously want to have -50% MDT too. ShellV might provide 31%, but you still want 19% in gear. So how you use it on SAM? With 10%MDT cape and Defending ring?
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2022-03-18 19:05:33
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Like I said, can use Malignance (MNK) or Nyame (SAM) for going full defensive mode. Mpaca is more a hybrid set. I didn't say I cap MDT- in a hybrid SAM set, but Mpaca is more sturdy than other options with good offense due to (a) solid Meva, (b) top MDB, and (c) great PDT-. That tends to be enough for most situations (say, as a default for segment farming), but yeah if I was fighting something that dished out huge magic damage, that's when I might swap to a lower offense and higher defense set to cap MDT. For SAM, that's Nyame.

Remember that SAM was the one melee DD that was left off of the big time pre-Odyssey sets with strong defensive stats (also RUN to some extent, but they have great defensive JSE gear and Turms +1). No Malignance like all the "light" DDs. No Hjarrandi like the other "heavy" DDs. No Moonlight Ring. So Odyssey sets were a big game changer for SAM, who had a lot less options for hybrid/defensive sets before that (AF+3 body and um... yeah).

As for MNK, Mpaca is better for offense than Malignance. And Mpaca is also better defense than more glass cannon stuff like Adhemar or Tatenashi. So it's a good compromise that allows you to get great offense along with a ton of PDT, top MDB, solid Meva. Use that unless you're doing stuff that just spams magical attacks or has a predictable big magical move (in which case, Malignance is there for you).

But this is getting a bit off topic in WAR forum. Just making the point that MDB has value, enough so that some jobs might actually choose to use an Odyssey piece due to MDB (if nothing else, as a tiebreaker if it's otherwise a close call). WAR doesn't have to do that, since Sakpata has offense, DT-, Meva, and MDB all rolled up into one.
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By Spaitin 2022-03-20 10:25:08
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
For WAR, it's honestly not as big of a deal since you have EVERYTHING on Sakpata: Meva, MDB, DT-. You get it all without having to choose.
You also have Subtle Blow lol. Sakpata is nutty.
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By Spaitin 2022-03-22 21:51:24
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Ive been trying to make a "get off me" set for enmity loss, but for the life of me cannot remember what the pieces were. was it just the yngwi neck?
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By Shichishito 2022-03-22 22:19:13
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wasn't there some earring that depletes enmity on hit with the trade off of using up MP?
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By Spaitin 2022-03-22 22:26:17
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Shichishito said: »
wasn't there some earring that depletes enmity on hit with the trade off of using up MP?
Schere earring. I have that, but i swear there was something else, I wanna say Saevel talked about it years ago but i can't find the discussion.
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By Shichishito 2022-03-22 22:28:24
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maybe raetic bangles? but those aren't for WAR
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By Spaitin 2022-03-22 22:44:17
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Shichishito said: »
maybe raetic bangles? but those aren't for WAR
yeah i think that was the item. too bad lol. good find lol
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By kinkanat 2022-03-25 18:47:34
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Hi guys, I was looking at the sets for warrior in the Bumba battle with a friend.

My friend uses Odin's body and head, but I think full Sakpata for melee is the best.

What sets do you use for Bumba as warriors? Both melee and ws savage blade?

For now we look at the guide, but he still argues that his set is better.

Thanks for your help.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-26 04:30:59
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kinkanat said: »
Hi guys, I was looking at the sets for warrior in the Bumba battle with a friend.

My friend uses Odin's body and head, but I think full Sakpata for melee is the best.

What sets do you use for Bumba as warriors? Both melee and ws savage blade?

For now we look at the guide, but he still argues that his set is better.

Thanks for your help.

I don't know rest of his set, but safe to say full Sakpata is much better. Hjarrandi is missing tons of MEVA and has no haste, which you need to compensate with waist+ammo slot, loosing even more dps, or some main armor slot+ammo, loosing even more meva and survivability.

Ofc below V15 it probably doesn't matter anyway with good WHM. Hard to say for me from experience, I always go with high meva on all jobs :P
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By Asura.Jokes 2022-03-26 05:47:23
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The head is still arguably useable in a set like this. but you will be slightly under haste cap without the mog garden +1 haste. Also not super DT'd up.

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By SimonSes 2022-03-26 07:02:20
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Asura.Jokes said: »
The head is still arguably useable in a set like this. but you will be slightly under haste cap without the mog garden +1 haste. Also not super DT'd up.

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Mog garden haste is magic haste, not equip.
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By Ranoutofspace 2022-03-26 07:37:04
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I don't use the Odin head just because of that super sweet 13% double attack damage on Sakpata. Gotta love the relic legs over the AF legs as well. Love double attack damage.
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By SimonSes 2022-03-26 07:48:56
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Ranoutofspace said: »
I don't use the Odin head just because of that super sweet 13% double attack damage on Sakpata. Gotta love the relic legs over the AF legs as well. Love double attack damage.

Yeah I use that with Ukon, but they are asking about Bumba setup with Naegling. White damage increase is not something you should focus on with that setup and Warcry being up whole fight.
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By kinkanat 2022-03-26 13:59:33
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Tyvm for respond and help :D
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