The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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By Kyler 2013-02-16 17:26:09
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I'd need more specifics, all of the parses I have are with 18 or less people. Which hall w/ how many people what set up etc. It varies a lot depending on which mobs you get in 3rd waves and on (obviously not in mul)
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By Asura.Fondue 2013-02-16 18:00:31
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mul kills?
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By Phorcys 2013-02-16 19:14:03
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Kyler said: »
The only thing I fulltime hybrid build on in legion or anything for that matter is that *** turtle in An. Because being double attacked 1 shotted is just gay. Aside from that I swap between all my sets(TP/acc/hybrid/fulldt/mdt w/e) depending on what my own buffs are like.

Hate that turtle more than any other mob in Legion. Used capped PDT build for it before we started using a Perfect Defense rotation.
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-16 20:27:10
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The people who don't use Hybrid sets, how many kills are you getting with 18 People in Mul and 18 people in Ki/Muru/Im? Whatever set-up.
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-02-16 21:02:45
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Ccl and Jem are about to drop a bomb.
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-16 23:38:11
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Well if people are using normal gear and it isn't affecting their survivability then they should be killing more than the groups who use Hybrid sets. So are they exceeding 15-18 kills in Mul and 22-28 kills in Im/Muru/Ki?


My personal opinion is that you should wear Hybrid gear for any mob that can drop you in under 3 seconds regardless of if it is facing you or not. That doesn't apply to every mob in Legion but it certainly applies to several mobs per chamber.

I still die wearing Hybrid gear, usually when getting caught mid-WS and I even eat Carbonara. So if mobs are dropping me in the short time I'm in WS gear, I find it hard to believe that people are flawlessly switching to PDT/Hybrid gear every time they should. Especially in a zone that is notoriously laggy.

Maybe I'm just hugely cynical and people can do this flawlessly. Maybe I just suck or have terrible luck. But I'd like to think I'm at least decently competent given that I am consistently at the top end of the parse.

A death in Legion isn't just 3-5 mins of weakness. You're losing Embrava/Buffs which aren't guaranteed to be back on before you unweaken. You're also increasing the likelihood of other DD's dying/SCH's missing stuns/mobs getting a dickish move off. The killspeed increase from everyone using normal gear is nowhere near as significant as the killspeed decrease from being 1-2 DD's down.

I've been with groups who virtually full-time Hybrid gear and I've been with groups who let DD's do whatever they want. I've also done both myself. The hybrid route had consistently better results in my experience despite the fact that the non-hybrid groups generally had better geared/skilled players.


Obviously it isn't the same view/experience that everyone shares nor do I expect to change anybodies opinion but I would like to at least know how many kills people are managing. I know every group I went with that didn't use hybrid sets got bogged down by DD deaths. It was a vicious cycle. DD's died, killspeed slowed, remaining DD's were more likely to die and it was hard to maintain full buffs on DD's who unweakened. Unweakened Embravaless DD's especially were an issue as buffs were set up around having Embrava haste. So we'd end up only getting like 15-18 kills in NQ chambers most of the time. You'd get the odd run where you'd get 22-25 but you'd also get an occasional terrible run too like 12 ish.
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By Phoenix.Ayrendel 2013-02-17 01:57:49
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It's no secret based on my post count that I don't bother posting that often. I started posting based on my strong reaction in opposition to the advice being given. The initial reaction to my posts made me lose faith in the community in general. Thank you to Jem for restoring my faith in the ability of DDs to apply common sense in Legion. I 100% agree with everything posted, and hopefully their opinions carry more weight around here than mine.
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By Phorcys 2013-02-17 02:15:40
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Asura.Jem said: »
Well if people are using normal gear and it isn't affecting their survivability then they should be killing more than the groups who use Hybrid sets. So are they exceeding 15-18 kills in Mul and 22-28 kills in Im/Muru/Ki?


My personal opinion is that you should wear Hybrid gear for any mob that can drop you in under 3 seconds regardless of if it is facing you or not. That doesn't apply to every mob in Legion but it certainly applies to several mobs per chamber.

I still die wearing Hybrid gear, usually when getting caught mid-WS and I even eat Carbonara. So if mobs are dropping me in the short time I'm in WS gear, I find it hard to believe that people are flawlessly switching to PDT/Hybrid gear every time they should. Especially in a zone that is notoriously laggy.

Maybe I'm just hugely cynical and people can do this flawlessly. Maybe I just suck or have terrible luck. But I'd like to think I'm at least decently competent given that I am consistently at the top end of the parse.

A death in Legion isn't just 3-5 mins of weakness. You're losing Embrava/Buffs which aren't guaranteed to be back on before you unweaken. You're also increasing the likelihood of other DD's dying/SCH's missing stuns/mobs getting a dickish move off. The killspeed increase from everyone using normal gear is nowhere near as significant as the killspeed decrease from being 1-2 DD's down.

I've been with groups who virtually full-time Hybrid gear and I've been with groups who let DD's do whatever they want. I've also done both myself. The hybrid route had consistently better results in my experience despite the fact that the non-hybrid groups generally had better geared/skilled players.


Obviously it isn't the same view/experience that everyone shares nor do I expect to change anybodies opinion but I would like to at least know how many kills people are managing. I know every group I went with that didn't use hybrid sets got bogged down by DD deaths. It was a vicious cycle. DD's died, killspeed slowed, remaining DD's were more likely to die and it was hard to maintain full buffs on DD's who unweakened. Unweakened Embravaless DD's especially were an issue as buffs were set up around having Embrava haste. So we'd end up only getting like 15-18 kills in NQ chambers most of the time. You'd get the odd run where you'd get 22-25 but you'd also get an occasional terrible run too like 12 ish.

This about sums it up. Better to increase your chances of living and not losing buffs/having downtime than to worry about increasing your overall DPS.
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By Kyler 2013-02-17 03:01:18
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No one ever gave an inspirational speech about giving it a good try, or putting out 75% of your best. Obviously do whatever you feel comfortable with, granted a big part of this (the intelligence and reliability of your support jobs and healers is something that is entirely out of your control.

That doesn't mean you have to give up what little control you do have of a situation. If you want to be a casual player and get the job done SE has had your back for a couple years now. Party on Garth. However there is a better way to do things, maybe not better for everyone but it seems like the proper place to discuss environments for the above average player no?

I'd rather plan and gear for the 90% of the time than gimp myself (and my group) for the 10% of the time when the unexpected happens.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-17 03:08:01
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Have you even done Legion? It isn't very unexpected and tends to happen more than 10% of the time. That's the entire reason that high end players use hybrid TP sets (though even at 10%, it's still more effective to avoid that 10% chance of losing a large amount of effectiveness and increase your amount of kills over time than to have a rogue naraka quadruple attack or gallu MS triple attack one shot one of your drks, or something even more drastic than that). No healer, regardless of how "intelligent" or "reliable" they are, will be able to save you from some things in Legion. A hybrid set in conjunction with a good healer will.


"Giving it your all" is more broad than you're making it out to be, anyways. Intelligently using what you have to the best of your ability and actually having it help your group act more effectively and efficiently is far more impressive than showboating for that chance at an extra 3% on the parse and being dead for half the event.
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By Carbuncle.Sambb 2013-02-17 04:18:56
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As some one has mentioned above, I can say that I too have been caught out mid weaponskill and been one shotted in lower halls, hell it wasn't even pony last night that did it think it was the corse one for a change, for some unknown reason one of its tp moves did 1700 dmg to me after being hit.

Its one of those "bad luck moments" and I fully support any one who says to fulltime hybrid. The only time I don't is when perfect defence has been popped. However the last few weeks I have done legion in any hall we havn't popped perfect defence once.

As alot of people seem to be saying and I agree "less dead > faster kills" it has always been this way and will forever continue to be.
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By Phoenix.Lxion 2013-02-17 04:22:03
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Maybe your personal experience involves not dying to the hands of the Rancor Collar, but that will not be everybody's. It is a safe bet that a Hybrid set will work better for the vast majority of players and should be one of the more important sets of their job.

Dead DDs never help anything, which will most often be the case anyways if they don't wear a hybrid set. Planning for the worst outcome often produces the best results. Hell, my hybrid sets could be considered god awful and they've still saved me when something went wrong. Not to mention that if you're buffed right then the mobs absolutely melt and die out.

Is the 5% crit rate helping -that- much?
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-17 10:59:57
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You're still dodging the question of how many kills you get which leads me to believe it isn't that high.

In Legion, safety first is the best way to go. Subtle tweaks of your hybrid gear depending on mob is fine. Rancor Collar isn't one of those subtle tweaks. Outright just using your best DD gear available can and will get you killed regardless of how good you think you are or how godly your reflexes are.

I'm fairly certain practically every person who uses Hybrid gear originally thought 'That's stupid, I'll just switch back and forth when necessary'. The reason you use Hybrid gear isn't because you're a lazy casual who is half-assing it, it's because it consistently performs better.

From a DD perspective deaths in Legion should purely be down to bad luck/missed stuns/support error, that is not the case once you stick your normal TP gear on. You will think that it is bad luck when you die but it isn't bad luck if it was entirely preventable, it's player error. It is certainly far higher than 10% of the time too. It isn't just about the oneshots, it's the melee + TP combo in quick succession usually or that you aren't quite topped up. A lot of mobs can drop you in an instant in normal gear but that possibility is almost completely taken away if you're wearing a Hybrid set.

It's playing the odds. You vastly, vastly reduce the number of situations you can die in if you just stick on a Hybrid set.

Just digging through my screenshots for 2 minutes I can pick out 4 NQ chamber mobs dishing out the pain.

Example 1 - Note the lack of equipment changing back post WS and that it got 3 melee swings off midcast due to the lag.

Example 2 - Would have survived in Hybrid gear. Note the previous TP move being in log which is probably due to lag

Example 3 - Again would have survived in Hybrid gear.

Example 4 - According to log in Hybrid gear but I'd think with that sort of damage it was in normal gear.


Also, I use a modified version of Nightfyre's spellcast. If that sort of spellcast and number of gearsets is casual, I wonder what that qualifies 95% of the playerbase as who undoubtedly do far less than that.
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By SakimaAsura 2013-02-17 11:24:05
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HP Merits.
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By Kyler 2013-02-17 11:44:33
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There is also a big difference between using rancor collar and a hybrid set. I also never said I don't use a hybrid set. You guys all went off on some fire torch wielding tangent world here. I'm saying its not always necessary and should be used when appropriate. Even looking through your screenshots


1. There was 7 seconds between when the alicorn started casting and finished with no sign of you switching into MDT gear or even ful DT gear because you are the one being hit.


3. Again no MDT gear? Can't tell when it started casting or how's my other people that is hitting.

4. That vamp is another one of those mobs. That chamber is pretty HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE to begin with and more of a trophy clear.

Sounds to me like you need a better Internet connection. I am aware that there is more weird lag in that zone than any other atm but its usually not often enough or occur during fighting enough to justify FULLTIMING some hybrid set. In a given TP phase I will switch probably between 3 sets. Save your TP for immediately after a mob uses a TP move or casts. You will have plenty of time go back to some other gear. There is hardly anything random about mob behavior.

I am not number dropping because 1. I could say 50 or some *** and it doesn't mean a damn thing. 2. I'm usually posting from my phone or iPad and I don't have my parses readily available.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-17 11:46:03
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Actually the kill count is the only thing that matters since that's the point of the event.
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-02-17 12:03:07
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Asura.Jem said: »
You're still dodging the question of how many kills you get which leads me to believe it isn't that high.



I'm fairly certain practically every person who uses Hybrid gear originally thought 'That's stupid, I'll just switch back and forth when necessary'. The reason you use Hybrid gear isn't because you're a lazy casual who is half-assing it, it's because it consistently performs better.

From a DD perspective deaths in Legion should purely be down to bad luck/missed stuns/support error, that is not the case once you stick your normal TP gear on.

This pretty much, unless someone can prove us wrong by having higher kill rate than us(wich is the main point of legion) so start posting number please.
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-17 12:04:24
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Just about everytime I've been one-shotted, its been for a more than 10% above my MAX HP. Where PDT/MDT/Hybrid gear could have saved me, but where rancor collar was not a factor. Nobody is advocating TPing in a pile of damage taken + gear. It just seems silly that the arguement has gone from "Rancor will get you killed in Legion" to "you are reckless and hybrid set > all".
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-17 12:05:00
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I do have full HP Merits Sakima. I also eat Carbonara the majority of the time.

My Hybrid set has capped MDT with Shell V. I only switch in extra MDB for certain mobs.

Also 7 seconds between casting and landing but there's 5 seconds between casting starting and a melee swing hitting. That is purely down to lag. It didn't even switch back to my TP gear post WS, it wasn't going to respond to macro presses.

It has nothing to do with my connection. It was fine when I lived in the UK and it's the same now I live in the US.

Like Sehachan says, we don't want to see parses. We want to see kill numbers as that is the only thing that matters.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Roark 2013-02-17 12:49:44
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its better to wear hp gear over a hybrid set. more specifically hp rings and aenotherus mantle. more survivability and less loss of dps than a hybrid set.
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By Asura.Fondue 2013-02-17 12:51:54
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SakimaAsura said: »
HP Merits.

check your privilege, galka scum!
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-17 13:00:18
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Quetzalcoatl.Roark said: »
and less loss of dps than a hybrid set.
Should provide a set example to support this claim.
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-17 13:33:46
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Quetzalcoatl.Roark said: »
its better to wear hp gear over a hybrid set. more specifically hp rings and aenotherus mantle. more survivability and less loss of dps than a hybrid set.

Firstly, Aenotherus isn't even WAR equippable. Secondly Strendu is better for HP if you were going down that route.
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-02-17 13:42:57
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HP gear only prevent one shot and are useless once you hp drop below what they offer, having a 40-50% dt hybrid set will still make a difference if you're yellow/orange hp for w/e reason and the mob is looking at you.
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By Kyler 2013-02-17 13:45:35
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Asura.Ccl said: »
and the mob is looking at you.


Why does this matter? You are always in your hybrid set remember?
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-17 13:46:44
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Kyler said: »
Asura.Ccl said: »
and the mob is looking at you.
Why does this matter? You are always in your hybrid set remember?

And what does any of that have to do with Rancor Collar or optimal DPS sets, lol.
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By Asura.Jem 2013-02-17 13:46:48
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The other issue is that you won't be at max HP post WS unless you WS'ed in it. So depending on how much HP gear you had on and how much Brava/Regen you had, it may not make a difference.
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-17 13:47:56
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Kyler said: »
Asura.Ccl said: »
and the mob is looking at you.
Why does this matter? You are always in your hybrid set remember?

And what does any of that have to do with Rancor Collar or optimal DPS sets, lol.
Passive-aggressive is now a point in the argument.
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By Carbuncle.Anesthesia 2013-02-17 13:50:02
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Kyler said: »
Asura.Ccl said: »
and the mob is looking at you.


Why does this matter? You are always in your hybrid set remember?


You were asked to produce kill numbers to back up your point, they weren't "readily available." You're done here, pointless snipes aren't going to change anything.
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By Kyler 2013-02-17 13:51:54
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Am I wrong? Is that not what the discussion is? That in legion on all mobs at all times TPing in a hybrid set yields better overall performace than using a traditional TP set and only using hybrid/dt/pdt/mdt when appropriate?

This is the third time I have said this in different words and I'm still waiting for a response.
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