(Don't) Fear The Reaper: A Dark Knight Guide

OK, no problem. I just assumed 19.9 or 199 under current TP display was the max you could get.

Then I just remembered before I retired RNG getting well into the 200's per shot. Like I said, was late and was too tired to remember.

DA and Store TP both give you more TP over time by the same percentages. Both also have the same effect of diminishing returns. With both starting at 0 and then going to +10, you will have the exact same average TP gain over time. The difference is that +DA will also give you extra melee damage. Typically, when choosing between them, Store TP comes in higher values then DA.

For example a perfect SAM's roll with the ring is +60 Store TP. A perfect WAR's roll is +20 DA. That is why we chose SAM's roll, the value is simply too high to pass up. Sub SAM is +15 Store TP, sub WAR is +10% DA, many gear will have +5~8 Store TP with an alternate choice being +3~4 DA. If the cape was +20 Store TP vs +10 DA then it would be worth more. The delay of the weapon doesn't matter since both are percentile increase's, a 999 delay weapon gets the same from Store TP as a 140 delay weapon.

To demonstrate how each gain TP, 100 swings with 100 TP return each.

+10% DA means that 100 swings will actually be 110 swings at 100 TP each.

110 * 100 = 11000 total TP gain

+10 Store TP means that 100 swings that give 110 TP each.

100 * 110 = 11000 total TP gain

Both give the exact same TP return over time, which is the metric we are measuring. Because DA gives bonus damage it's more valuable, point for point, then Store TP. The one area Store TP excels is that it's consistency allows for more predictable self skill chaining.

Also while having more TP with WS's like Resolution is never a bad thing, Mult-Attack also provides TP for those WS's.

DA fully overrides mutlihit checks.

Mythic aftermath is 40/40/20

That's averaging 1.8 hits per round, meaning DA is only a tenth as valuable at giving you any extra hits. Quite close to useless.

The check sequence is

QA
TA
DA
OaX (Mythic / Ridll / ect..)

The value of DA gets lower the more MA you have but so does Store TP and most every other stat in this game that's not at the bottom of a fraction. SE has done a lot to nerf the power of OaX weapons, no more broke Ridill's and K clubs, the only remaining powerful OaX weapons are the Mythics and they require a different approach to TP sets. You need AM3 up/down sets.

This is a very interesting discussion.

I have heard the term "diminishing returns" thrown around rather frequently on these forums, but I don't really know if I fully understand it. Can someone elaborate on what this means and how it affects stats?

I always thought this was a term that describes the "diminishing" (lowered usefulness) of a certain stat over the course of time if you have too much of it. For instance, 10% DA is noticeable where you have no double attack, but 10% da is not as noticeable where your rate is 50% already. Is this what diminishing returns are?

That is essentially what it is. If you have 10% DA and add 2% more that's a 20% increase, but if you have 40% DA the same increase (2% DA) is only a 5% increase.

The only thing to add is that Stp never changes and will give the same flat return every swing. DA is a % and over a long enough time and big enough sample you will see your %, but you will also go through rounds where no MA rounds proc'd and then some where it triggers each swing.

It would be nice if DA actually worked like that but it doesnt each swing has a 10% chance to proc so over 100 hits you could get lucky have have 125 hits or you could get unlucky and have 104. Out of the two STP is more reliable hence why everyone makes xhit builds for 2 handers then put multiattack in where you don't need STP.

No, we build based on probability. 125 hits will happen, 104 hits will happen, but on average you're going to get about 10% more hits given a sufficiently large sample size (see the Law of Large Numbers). STP is potentially more complicated depending on weapons and particular values (note for example the relative size of variance in common TP returns from WS to TP/hit on DW jobs), but for 2h jobs is usually pretty straightforward (large gaps where it mostly serves to boost TP/WS followed by small regions where it significantly decreases average rounds/WS). The primary end goal for both stats is a reduction in average rounds per WS cycle. Each has the secondary benefit of potentially increasing average TP per WS, and multiattack also increases white damage due to increased hits per round. Reliability is only a factor insofar as it affects your ability to consistently skillchain, which is generally not an issue for a properly buffed DD job at this time.

I would also like to further complicate this situation and point out, that since both QA and TA proc before DA and you can only DA when you don't QA or TA, DA is highly devalued on jobs where you can get a fair amount of TA (e.g. RUN). So while you will DA 10% more, you will actually only receive (1-QA)*(1-TA)*.1*2 more hits per round.
Let's say my TA is +30% and my DA is +20% (no QA for simplicity's sake)

hits per 100 rounds = (.3*3+.7*.2*2+.7*.8*1)*100=174
the I get my +10% DA cape:
hits per 100 rounds = (.3*3+.7*.3*2+.7*.7*1)*100 = 181
181-174 = 7 extra hits per 100 rounds

Even if you're just wearing windbuffet +1 this brings you down to 9.6 swings per 100 rounds. So the TP gain will not be exactly the same over time.

Yep it gets complicated quick, which is why it's a balancing act and why I said "point for point".

100 TP per swing, +50 Store TP so 150 per swing.
Add 10 and you get 160 which is only a 6.6% increase (160/150).

That is why we aim for a specific X-hit (4 or 5) and then layer on either MA or Store TP depending on how much you get. 15 Store TP will usually be better then 5% DA, but 5% DA will be better then 5 Store TP. For things like QA / TA just multiple by it's extra hit count to get an approximate value for it's worth. 2% TA is worth approximately the same as 4% DA, 2% QA is approximately as much as 6% DA. Also MA gives more TP and more melee damage.

If the cape gave 15~20 Store TP then I would favor that over the 10% DA but as it stands you need situations involving Mythic AM3 to make the Store TP worth more then the DA in total.

Nobody just slaps on Store TP like they would Double Attack. A precise hitbuild is the goal.

One might argue that the better 100-200tp scaling nowadays makes it less important to have those perfect 101tp builds (for WS miss allowance). STP short of changing your hitbuild is still valueless because it'd only be a few tenthspoints extra TP tops.

The lower your hitbuild already is, the better an extra swing off is too. Rag doesn't like hitbuilds just "Because Rag", but because 7 to 6 isn't nearly as valuable as 6 to 5.

Do the math with the gear you've got. If 5 STP puts you in a 5-hit it will easily outvalue 5% DA. Don't just try to compare their numbers at some rate of valuation.

We used to wear 'trash tier' Ogier's gauntlets to make 5-hit with OAT Fulgurante and I'd have been the only person in the game wanting murzim corazza so I could get out of tactical mantle. I was ~10% behind Rag outside of Voidwatch.

STP is not a stat for morons. It is not a stat you can compare to any other. It is a stat you should probably even sacrifice for with just about any scythe, not just for Mythics.

I have a 4 hit liberator build which (once) AM is up and flowing which is insane. However getting to AM takes me 12 hits and puts me way behind on the parse. The 3rd part of the video against Sajj'aka really shows the benifit of this during AM technically a 3 hit build post WS

Reading the above I will work on a double attck (Pre) AM build and feedback.

Not anymore, that was the old thinking back when WS's had ***scaling past 1000TP. Now it really depends on the WS, Resolution and Cross Reaper both get very large increase's going from 1~2~3K TP, Insurgency too. With GS hitting 1000TP perfectly isn't necessary or even optimal anymore, it really is down to a pure "get as much TP quickly as possible" and if your over 1000TP then that's even better. DRK not having Lionheart is a huge kick in the nuts. 500TP is a huge increase for Resolution. If you ever want to see what happens when you stack TP with resolution just be in a party with a WAR who has Savagery 5/5 and the gear to boost WC. It's like they just shot you full of steroids.

So we kinda do compare DA Multi-Attack and STP directly to see which gives the best DPS, which is combination of TP gain and melee damage. You are shooting for an X-hit for consistent self SCing which is actually important these days.

Yeah that's the problem with lots of Mythics, if you don't start out with 3000TP then then the fight must be long enough for the OaX to actually catch up but not long enough to require reapplication.

Don't count yourself out, you also didn't have capped haste until Ingrid dies. By the time Morimor was engaged you only have 15% of the parse and just AM2. Yet you ended with over 37% of the parse.

The geo could have /rdm or /whm and cast haste on you since you ran in with trust healer, seems a lot of mages forget they can cast that spell. That would have helped you hit that 300% tp.

SR is a ***way to calculate dmg possibilities due to NM health and the wait time between nm pops. Things like that favor lower delay weapons because the time it takes them to hit max dps vs how long it takes higher delay weapons to max dmg. (NM pop time in the event your group can't kill fast enough and your JA buffs wear off, i.e. last resort has down time while blu can stay cap -delay)

Many times I haven't started my ws until I see a blu already breaking 1.6k+ dps but when the fight ends they are behind me on parse. Meaning I go from 300dps to the 2k-2.5k dps range (occasionally ending with over 3k) dps in the time a VD bcnm is over.

The dmg you are putting out with those ws and the frequency of how often you can spam them vs the ws dmg of blu and their ws frequency is a vast difference. So much so that in 2 nm's you brought your dmg from 15% to 37%. Would have been higher if you were capped haste to start, might have been able to run AM3 on first nm for the next 2.

tldr: You started slow because the buffs favored blu as well as needing to build AM3

SR isn't Mythic friendly. without aftermath Lv.3, relics and empyrean are superior weapons.

Napkin math tells me you have to be throwing on an extraneous 30STP after 5-hit to be getting ~15% more Cross Reaper damage from TP overage, robbing your white damage or durability for it along the way, but then you could put on one or two more points and just be doing 25% more Cross Reapers, 25% more WS multihit procs, more consistent self-SC, etc, due to 4-hit. That's the best case unless you're not using gorget/belt on Reso (which would be a more striking departure) and you're already wearing 29 STP and are /SAM (44/15 clean build because Cross Reaper instead of ye olde 42/20 Guillo miss-tolerant).

The only STP that matters is the last point you need. Yes, there's a value proposition you can make that I find to be around 7 TP bonus per point of STP (7.2 for Rag, 6.6 for Scythes), but you're sacrificing it in your TP set instead of swapping it in, and it's hard to take willful advantage of that and not just shoot for for the next hitbuild.

Random augment? Fine. Intentionally equipping STP without making the next xhit nor to shed STP from your WS set? Dubious.

I will accept an argument towards STP adding WS damage in a more predictable way, such that pressing your WS macro on time in 80% haste situations is more consistent than dealing with the 50/50 oddity of a DA cutting your cycle by a round, but that's another argument for DA is that you get more WS rather than stronger WS, which means more WSC-boosted multihits (and you have more DA gear for them!) and more skillchains (gee almost like DA is cutting rounds the way STP should be used intentionally for).

That is not how that works... hasn't been for years now...

If you have swung four times and are at 948 TP (237 per swing), your fifth swing doesn't magically give you only 52TP, it gives the same 237 as the other four. It would put you at 1185TP when you hit your WS macro not 1000TP. This is important because it's not this large 25% gain from suddenly going from a 5-hit to a 4-hit. It's much smaller, usually in the single digit percentages but varies with the exact WS.

This is important when valuating how much accuracy and Multi-attack someone is going to be sacrificing to get a specific X-hit and which accessories to be using in any given situation.

Take Rag for instance, a 431 delay weapon that gets 122TP per swing. To do a "pure" five hit you need 64 Store TP, which is reasonable without sacrificing much. To go for a four hit you'd need 105 Store TP, which is technically reachable but would require insane amounts of sacrifice.

Now Apoc which is 513 delay and 142TP per hit. To reach a five hit it would require 41 Store TP, easy to reach even if not /SAM. For a four hit it would require 77 Store TP, which would require some sacrifice. For a three hit you would need 136 Store TP which isn't happening.

Thing is, there isn't some magical chalk line where you are either 41 sTP or 77 sTP, it's a gradient with each extra sTP powering up the WS further. MA applies here also, a MA proc on your last round just serves to power up the WS further and provide extra melee damage. The only bonus having a specific X-hit gives is in the ability to do multi-part self SC since predictable consistency is far more important then raw power. When mixing single and multi-hit WS's, like you would do in a multi-step self-SC setup, it becomes even more important to value Store TP on a gradient.

TP Overage has zero effect on WS multihit procs. Reaching the next hitbuild does. I don't know what you were digging for there.

I did the math for you: The absolute best case for DRK is 15% more Cross Reaper damage, but you can add just a few STP more and just do 25% more goddamn Cross Reapers.

That's 25% more damage, 25% more chances to multihit during a WS, 12.5% more self-SC damage.

That's a pretty thick "chalk line" if you ask me. The gradient is nothing compared to the step.

Stop being lazy. Do the math to equip the STP you need and then find better things to put on.

I see picking random lines to take out of context and ignore when someone already ran your point through the math hasn't changed in years though.

This is a weird discussion. That I don't at all care about. ANYWAY...

So I made Anguta the other day because I have no other Legendary weapon for DRK, and I have zero desire to make one.

Sweet jesus, this thing is awesome. The only thing is that it's not good for uncoordinated groups. The thing that really surprised me is how much damage my Entropy was doing with what I consider an extremely lackluster set. I only had trusts, but I was able to hit 15-20k Entropys on the final hit, resulting in 70-80k Umbras.

grats on the Anguta, now make the rest of the drk weapons

That's now how that works anymore ... we get hit and take damage.. and many WS's get large bonus's from extra TP. Your statement was


Which is factually incorrect and leftover from an era where WS's TP mod's were really shitty.


Yes the Aeonic's for 2H are generally pretty bad ***. Was doing Apex bats with a friend of mine the other day

DRG (me, kinda thrown together)
SAM (him, Aeonic)
WHM (PUG)
GEO #1(PUG 830 skill but Dunna) Indi-haste + Precision or attunement, didn't really matter we only wanted him for the haste.
GEO #2(PUG 900 skill Dunna) Fury + Fraility
COR (PUG Roll only, Chaos + CP roll)

Stardiver -> Shoha -> Drakes -> Fudo killed it with 60~99K Radiance. Apex bat had a life expectancy somewhere south of 20s.

And *click* problem solved

Oh, Saevel! *laugh track*

I'm sorry everyone. Here's the tl;dr of the last page:

"But TP overage increases WS damage!"
Yeah, but you're trading better stats for STP?
"But TP overage increases WS damage!"
Okay, by a few percent, but if you can get that much you might as well build the next x-hit?
"But TP overage increases WS damage!"
Making the next x-hit and WSing more gives you even more WS damage too? Here's a conversion to TP Bonus. It doesn't seem like much.
"But TP overage increases WS damage!"
Yes, that's true, here I did some math and being 99% of the way there gives you half of what you get out of being 100% of the way there? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
"OMG I BLOCK U"

Stay classy FFXIAH.

omg blocked.

*click* problem solved

If he unfriends you on facebook as well, that will make it official.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but I wanna chit chat with my other emo drk frenz

The delay on relics is annoying. 1 week for stage 2-3!? Jeez man, this is brutal.

Also, is it reasonable for me to have 2 sets of Valorous/Odyssean tp sets, one for solo fodder crap with maxed DA stas, the other WITH MAX ACC AUGS + WHATEVER other random stats get thrown on? Reason I ask is because I have several da+4 pieces of valorous/odyssean, but the acc is only average (between 15-20 or so). Kinda don't wanna give up the DA, but was wondering how practical it was later on. Or if its just a waste of space and I should spend millions on trying to concatenate the stats.