Locked till I can clean this thread up.
Do you know just how many reports I woke up to from this thread? ALL from this thread? Too many, that's how many.
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
I think it's time for a time out for a couple people.
I had 16 reports, all from this thread and while 16 sounds like a small number, it's a very big amount to have in the report queue at one time. That said, I handled reports via the Admin console so there is no "reason" listed, most of the posts removed are either off-topic or clean up of responses to said posts.
Time-outs have went out and I want to make it clear that they are short term and not permanent. It's easy to become emotionally invested in these discussions and get very angry, very fast.
I'd suggest discussing said disagreements in PM. Why? We all agree that these guides are for informational purposes and it's very, very easy for bad information to be picked up from random arguments that span several pages. The arguing needs to stay out of the guides.
I had 16 reports, all from this thread and while 16 sounds like a small number, it's a very big amount to have in the report queue at one time. That said, I handled reports via the Admin console so there is no "reason" listed, most of the posts removed are either off-topic or clean up of responses to said posts.
Time-outs have went out and I want to make it clear that they are short term and not permanent. It's easy to become emotionally invested in these discussions and get very angry, very fast.
I'd suggest discussing said disagreements in PM. Why? We all agree that these guides are for informational purposes and it's very, very easy for bad information to be picked up from random arguments that span several pages. The arguing needs to stay out of the guides.
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As found in page 1 of this very thread:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107375097/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx
This is a spreadsheet I try to keep updated and relevant. The melee calculations have been adjusted best of my knowledge as of September. The enemy stats are on a sliding scale, if they seem 'too difficult' of an NM, step it back to something that seems more reasonable.
I welcome any input of mob stats to make the sheet better. This is a community effort, please tell me what you would like to see changed.
Does the kikoku aftermath still not operate correctly? Because it shows up correctly in my data sheet.
-I have not incorporated gifts at all yet. Still on my 'want to do' list.
tl;dr If there's something about the sheet that doesn't make you happy, tell me.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107375097/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx
This is a spreadsheet I try to keep updated and relevant. The melee calculations have been adjusted best of my knowledge as of September. The enemy stats are on a sliding scale, if they seem 'too difficult' of an NM, step it back to something that seems more reasonable.
I welcome any input of mob stats to make the sheet better. This is a community effort, please tell me what you would like to see changed.
Does the kikoku aftermath still not operate correctly? Because it shows up correctly in my data sheet.
-I have not incorporated gifts at all yet. Still on my 'want to do' list.
tl;dr If there's something about the sheet that doesn't make you happy, tell me.
On a completely unrelated note...
For any of you who like niche sets. I've been toying with a magic evasion set and have had pretty good results.
ItemSet 347612
Andartia with Magic Evasion, Taeon Chapeau with +20, and Hearty Earring on -ga's that carry no damage (sleepga/silencega etc) I've found a very noticeable resist rate.
It has certainly helped clear some HTMB and other solo activities a bit easier.
For any of you who like niche sets. I've been toying with a magic evasion set and have had pretty good results.
ItemSet 347612
Andartia with Magic Evasion, Taeon Chapeau with +20, and Hearty Earring on -ga's that carry no damage (sleepga/silencega etc) I've found a very noticeable resist rate.
It has certainly helped clear some HTMB and other solo activities a bit easier.
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
On a completely unrelated note...
For any of you who like niche sets. I've been toying with a magic evasion set and have had pretty good results.
ItemSet 347612
Andartia with Magic Evasion, Taeon Chapeau with +20, and Hearty Earring on -ga's that carry no damage (sleepga/silencega etc) I've found a very noticeable resist rate.
It has certainly helped clear some HTMB and other solo activities a bit easier.
For any of you who like niche sets. I've been toying with a magic evasion set and have had pretty good results.
ItemSet 347612
Andartia with Magic Evasion, Taeon Chapeau with +20, and Hearty Earring on -ga's that carry no damage (sleepga/silencega etc) I've found a very noticeable resist rate.
It has certainly helped clear some HTMB and other solo activities a bit easier.
Interesting that you bring this up. I have also been toying with a magic evasion set - it would seem that our sets are identical with a couple exceptions:
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Beazt, this is the best. :D
Though I was expecting to see a <</no motion>> for the head slot.
Though I was expecting to see a <</no motion>> for the head slot.
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
As found in page 1 of this very thread:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107375097/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx
This is a spreadsheet I try to keep updated and relevant. The melee calculations have been adjusted best of my knowledge as of September. The enemy stats are on a sliding scale, if they seem 'too difficult' of an NM, step it back to something that seems more reasonable.
I welcome any input of mob stats to make the sheet better. This is a community effort, please tell me what you would like to see changed.
Does the kikoku aftermath still not operate correctly? Because it shows up correctly in my data sheet.
-I have not incorporated gifts at all yet. Still on my 'want to do' list.
tl;dr If there's something about the sheet that doesn't make you happy, tell me.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107375097/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx
This is a spreadsheet I try to keep updated and relevant. The melee calculations have been adjusted best of my knowledge as of September. The enemy stats are on a sliding scale, if they seem 'too difficult' of an NM, step it back to something that seems more reasonable.
I welcome any input of mob stats to make the sheet better. This is a community effort, please tell me what you would like to see changed.
Does the kikoku aftermath still not operate correctly? Because it shows up correctly in my data sheet.
-I have not incorporated gifts at all yet. Still on my 'want to do' list.
tl;dr If there's something about the sheet that doesn't make you happy, tell me.
Thank you! I have an older one lol that I have been just manually changing things, this will be nice to use :D I will give you any data I get for sure.
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Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Using the NIN DPS spreadsheet with the gear I have and +10 Store TP (from ninjutsu).
w/ Kanaria - 3.43 rounds/WS
w/ Kujaku +1 - 3.57 rounds/WS
Seems like placebo to me.
w/ Kanaria - 3.43 rounds/WS
w/ Kujaku +1 - 3.57 rounds/WS
Seems like placebo to me.
The guy literally parsed himself against himself using different weapons.
That's FACTUAL ACCURATE DATA. You can't get anymore accurate than that.
The source for the incongruity between the expected result and the parsed result has already been identified. I modeled this assuming capped haste although I don't think it needs to even be stated as the number of rounds/WS isn't going to change based on the amount of Haste you have. It's also incorrect to say that the DPS spreadsheets are wrong. They are not wrong, there are just limitations as to what they can be used for. They can't tell you what RMEA is best or how to maximize your DPS in regards to skillchains/etc., but accurately predicting your average rounds/WS is something that is within their domain.
[+]
Hi.
Humans have knowingly used inaccurate models since the dawn of time, and scientists continue to use inaccurate models to this very day. To claim that such things are null and void is to ignore that they are the best we have available and are thus vital to our understanding of the world around us (or in this case, the game), and that identifying inaccuracies is a crucial step in the process of making those models (and thus our lives/gameplay) better.
I don't think I've ever seen you contribute to any discussion in a way that advances our knowledge of the game beyond existing models. If you are intent on maintaining this position, you should be prepared to contribute findings of your own and rigorously demonstrate that your methods produce more accurate results.
Parsers are accurate only in the sense that they capture a snapshot of events within their scope. They do very little to inform you of why any variance might exist, and can actually obscure important pieces of information since they capture and store a limited portion of the relevant data. Understanding the reasons behind a given result is just as important as the result itself, and modeling tools are far more transparent in that regard.
Furthermore, XI's battle engine is non-deterministic. Accounting for all the randomness and confounding factors in a realistic battle scenario is a titanic undertaking. You could conceivably spend hundreds of hours establishing an appropriate confidence interval to differentiate between just two pieces of gear in one specific scenario for one player. Even if someone was so foolish as to undertake such a sisyphean task, they would be unable to eliminate all confounding factors. Awareness of the parse itself tends to engender differences in play and is thus a confounding factor all its own.
Parsing is an invaluable part of the data gathering process, but relying on parses to accurately disseminate information regarding gearing choices is deeply impractical.
Motenten built a variety of customizable "fuzz factors" into the spreadsheets in order to better approximate actual play. Spreadsheets only assume perfect play if you set them as such and do not make full use of their features. It's true that they use probabilistic modeling, but your conception of their capabilities is very shallow and inaccurate. They're certainly not perfect, but they're a valuable source of information when used correctly and with an awareness of their limitations.
I might also point out that the present status of our modeling tools is largely attributable to the fact that only a half dozen or so individuals have put any serious effort towards maintaining and updating them in the past few years. These same individuals are also responsible for a great deal of our findings regarding the game itself within the same time period, and are often contributors to one or more guides as well. That's a tremendous amount of work for very little reward, and it doesn't leave a lot of time for playing the game itself when one has other commitments and hobbies. If even a quarter of the time and energy that has gone into criticizing the spreadsheets during that time had instead been directed towards finding ways to contribute, I daresay the situation would be very different.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Inaccurate things are null and void and should not be used to back up claims.
Quote:
Please bring your own math and personal testings to discussions, because "spreadsheet says x" no longer works, and hasn't for years.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Parsers exist.
Parsers are reading the combat log, thus have much less chance(nearly zero?) of being inaccurate.
Parsers are reading the combat log, thus have much less chance(nearly zero?) of being inaccurate.
Furthermore, XI's battle engine is non-deterministic. Accounting for all the randomness and confounding factors in a realistic battle scenario is a titanic undertaking. You could conceivably spend hundreds of hours establishing an appropriate confidence interval to differentiate between just two pieces of gear in one specific scenario for one player. Even if someone was so foolish as to undertake such a sisyphean task, they would be unable to eliminate all confounding factors. Awareness of the parse itself tends to engender differences in play and is thus a confounding factor all its own.
Parsing is an invaluable part of the data gathering process, but relying on parses to accurately disseminate information regarding gearing choices is deeply impractical.
Calinari said: »
Spreadsheets are based on what a bot would do against a wall.
I might also point out that the present status of our modeling tools is largely attributable to the fact that only a half dozen or so individuals have put any serious effort towards maintaining and updating them in the past few years. These same individuals are also responsible for a great deal of our findings regarding the game itself within the same time period, and are often contributors to one or more guides as well. That's a tremendous amount of work for very little reward, and it doesn't leave a lot of time for playing the game itself when one has other commitments and hobbies. If even a quarter of the time and energy that has gone into criticizing the spreadsheets during that time had instead been directed towards finding ways to contribute, I daresay the situation would be very different.
[+]
Ok but every spreadsheet is inaccurate, out of date, and generally never right.
If you compare a piece of gear with another and it takes hundreds of hours for there to be a variance, guess what? That means it doesn't matter what you use between those pieces of gear.
I don't have to contribute anything to advancing knowledge to tell people to stop bringing up something that's wrong and to instead parse themselves. Those two things aren't related at all - and it was more about the point that he brings up the spreadsheets then refuses to link to them, and told me to look through a 100+ page thread for one..lol.
Spreadsheets and parsing are both tools you can use. The problem is when ONLY use spreadsheets and come into discussions of a job they probably don't even have geared throwing out spreadsheets and stuff to try to "prove" someone wrong about their gear choice and make them feel bad about it.
You should be using every tool available to you, but you have too many people who treat spreadsheets as some holy grail that you must obey and is never wrong. That's bad.
If you compare a piece of gear with another and it takes hundreds of hours for there to be a variance, guess what? That means it doesn't matter what you use between those pieces of gear.
I don't have to contribute anything to advancing knowledge to tell people to stop bringing up something that's wrong and to instead parse themselves. Those two things aren't related at all - and it was more about the point that he brings up the spreadsheets then refuses to link to them, and told me to look through a 100+ page thread for one..lol.
Spreadsheets and parsing are both tools you can use. The problem is when ONLY use spreadsheets and come into discussions of a job they probably don't even have geared throwing out spreadsheets and stuff to try to "prove" someone wrong about their gear choice and make them feel bad about it.
You should be using every tool available to you, but you have too many people who treat spreadsheets as some holy grail that you must obey and is never wrong. That's bad.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
I don't have to contribute anything to advancing knowledge to tell people to stop bringing up something that's wrong and to instead parse themselves.
[+]
Not to be rude, but haven't you been screaming for nerfs and buffs for jobs you don't even have leveled? Let alone geared?
There are posts with you citing Afania's spreadsheet posts to bolster your arguments.
There are posts with you citing Afania's spreadsheet posts to bolster your arguments.
[+]
or have any real understanding of
[+]
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Ok but every spreadsheet is inaccurate, out of date, and generally never right.
The spreadsheets never assume that they are absolutely correct. They do, however, provide very good information. I welcome you to peruse the one I linked above and if you find something that is not indicative to the games function please let me know.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
If you compare a piece of gear with another and it takes hundreds of hours for there to be a variance, guess what? That means it doesn't matter what you use between those pieces of gear.
This is entirely subjective. If one piece of gear is better, mathmatically, in a given scenario then it is in my interest to use it. It's also not just about 1 piece of gear versus another. But many pieces. In that regard it offers great insight.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
I don't have to contribute anything to advancing knowledge to tell people to stop bringing up something that's wrong and to instead parse themselves.
Parsing has the same inherent problems that you are speaking out against about spreadsheeting.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Spreadsheets and parsing are both tools you can use. The problem is when ONLY use spreadsheets and come into discussions of a job they probably don't even have geared throwing out spreadsheets and stuff and non parsing.
Then, perhaps, use both. Begin with the spreadsheet to see if you can create a theory on your gear situation. Then put it to the test. Parse your results over a long enough time to reflect the nature of your play. If they don't jive, change your gearset, or change the nature of your playstyle.
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
You should be using every tool available to you, but you have too many people who treat spreadsheets as some holy grail that you must obey and is never wrong. That's bad.
I welcome you to change your attitude towards using the spreadsheet I linked you to above. Use both tools. And don't discount the utility of a spreadsheet. Many good things have come from using these spreadsheets. Please, dive in and find the truth.
As I've said above, and love to reiterate, please help me to make the spreadsheet better.
[+]
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Hi.
Can correlate my own experiences with most of this post. Back when i was much more heavily invested in XI my friend (and to a much lesser extent, myself) spent weeks, months, building mathematical simulations of XI's battle system. Simulations, not spreadsheets, as a spreadsheet for the most part is only capable of working in, in the easiest and most layman way of putting it, "binary" functions (completely out of line use of the actual term binary function, but this isn't for people who understand what that is anyway), aka turning a buff on or off or having x situation active or inactive. They've come a long way and some are capable of simulating the duration of effects or critical debuffs such as Dispel, but none can or ever will be able to match the exact way that these effects behave in-game. This makes spreadsheets useful for comparing gear to other gear and buff situations to other buff situations, but on the whole they are generally incapable of fully comparing one job or player to another in an actual battle scenario. Most people use spreadsheet data in conjunction with their own personal in-game experience and observations to come up with what they think are the best possible setups and scenarios to tackle a fight, and it works more often than it doesn't.
For a complete (and by complete, I mean mechanically. Despite the thousands of hours of time spent by those of us who have tried to further the advancement of our understanding on XI's underlying gearwork, we do not have a complete 100% model to simulate it with absolute certainty, though we are pretty close) look at how each of a player's buffs, debuffs, and human tendencies work with each other, you either need an enormous sample of parse data with meticulously chronicled details (monster, player gear, player errors throughout the fight(s), etc) or you need a simulation built to emulate the entirety of a battle taking place in XI. Both of these still have major flaws (in the case of parses, you're trusting that the individual providing the data isn't fabricating or forgetting any important details; for simulations, you're trusting someone else's math and code to be accurate and for some that's a lofty endeavor), and the time required to make either of them work is so extreme that it simply isn't worth the fuss unless you're unbelievably passionate about the game, but you don't have any other option to get a complete representation of the average performance of x job or gearset compared to y.
That all said, spreadsheets are still the most widely available and useful tool available to players, and quite frankly a majority of the XI community takes them for granted. What some individuals are so shamelessly putting down as useless, inaccurate, and "bad math" (a term I've heard before, and it still makes me chuckle) or decrying as a useless tool are the exact things that they cling to on almost a daily basis to build their cookie cutter gearsets and sometimes even their party setups. These tools took someone dozens, and perhaps some even hundreds of hours to construct using thousands of hours of gathered data that the XI math community has amassed over the last decade. It is an incredible disservice and absolutely insulting to anyone who has ever put time into making your play experience better by sacrificing their time and dedication to create a tool like an XI job spreadsheet. They are not infallible, they are not perfect, however for what they do they are the best representation of the inner workings of XI that you will likely ever have the privilege of seeing or using and you should be grateful that such a useful tool was made at all.
[+]
One of your shadows absorbs the report and disappears.
[+]
I am posting because people saying logical things are getting a lot of +s to their posts and Reddit has taught me to see these out.
Anywho, spreadsheets save time. I can, and frequently do, work out everything myself in regards to the time it takes for things to happen to see if things are viable and what tier of a skillchain I can probably reach. I do it all the time. It's how I worked out I can use three different weapons on WAR in the same skillchain.
That said, it takes for goddamned ever to do it. It's WAAAYYYY easier to just plug those numbers into spreadsheet and have it do all of that work for me. You can get a lot of raw numbers from spreadsheets and plug those into more advanced calculations if you decide you want to do them. They can also be really great for calculating the possible damage range of any particular WS with whatever modifiers.
Unrelated to that, part of the reason I don't share any of my tools I've made for myself is the bizarre sense of entitlement I see on this site occasionally and more frequently Reddit. Nightfyre pointed out that only a handful of people bother contributing to tools that currently exist, but I'd say that it goes even further in that really only a handful more contribute to the knowledge of this game anymore. Blue Mage is one of the most popular jobs in the game and yet the enmity values for a large portion of it's lv99 spells hasn't ever been added. I talked to Spicy about that and he told me he needed help and that he couldn't get it. Pretty disappointing considering how much he has done for the BLU community.
Anyway, in regards to most blurred weapons, they have oddly high delay. Kujata +1 would probably be a great deal better if it's delay were substantially lower. It's also better in situations where you don't have a lot of multiattack(wearing DT gear most likely). Blurred Dagger +1 doesn't really have that same problem as it's delay isn't the lowest, but it's fairly low. Why did they decide to make Kujata so high?
Anywho, spreadsheets save time. I can, and frequently do, work out everything myself in regards to the time it takes for things to happen to see if things are viable and what tier of a skillchain I can probably reach. I do it all the time. It's how I worked out I can use three different weapons on WAR in the same skillchain.
That said, it takes for goddamned ever to do it. It's WAAAYYYY easier to just plug those numbers into spreadsheet and have it do all of that work for me. You can get a lot of raw numbers from spreadsheets and plug those into more advanced calculations if you decide you want to do them. They can also be really great for calculating the possible damage range of any particular WS with whatever modifiers.
Unrelated to that, part of the reason I don't share any of my tools I've made for myself is the bizarre sense of entitlement I see on this site occasionally and more frequently Reddit. Nightfyre pointed out that only a handful of people bother contributing to tools that currently exist, but I'd say that it goes even further in that really only a handful more contribute to the knowledge of this game anymore. Blue Mage is one of the most popular jobs in the game and yet the enmity values for a large portion of it's lv99 spells hasn't ever been added. I talked to Spicy about that and he told me he needed help and that he couldn't get it. Pretty disappointing considering how much he has done for the BLU community.
Anyway, in regards to most blurred weapons, they have oddly high delay. Kujata +1 would probably be a great deal better if it's delay were substantially lower. It's also better in situations where you don't have a lot of multiattack(wearing DT gear most likely). Blurred Dagger +1 doesn't really have that same problem as it's delay isn't the lowest, but it's fairly low. Why did they decide to make Kujata so high?
Long post about my findings on Kujaku+1. Only read if you want, I didnt want a huge wall of text that all have to suffer seeing haha.Basically I found Kujaku+1 to be a great choice for offhand, and in practical use probably one of the best.
PS: Why is spreedsheet showing Achiuchikapu as best dps offhand katana? I have moved gear/mob lv/buffs all around it I get it winning nearly always lol. Someone else give it a try maybe I broke the spreedsheet....
PS: Why is spreedsheet showing Achiuchikapu as best dps offhand katana? I have moved gear/mob lv/buffs all around it I get it winning nearly always lol. Someone else give it a try maybe I broke the spreedsheet....
Valefor.Kiaru said: »
Ok but every spreadsheet is inaccurate, out of date, and generally never right.
Sure, they are very out of date.
But people have been updating those spreadsheets individually? Langly's spreadsheet for NIN is pretty up to date.
Of course it misses stuff like Job Points, Gifts and such, but has a lot of gear variation, new FTP mods for WS, updated Daken calculations, new updated Monster stats, new updated Buff lists, new updated Acc/Att conversion rates from STR and DEX, new acc cap of 99% for mainhand etc.
There can be occasionally errors, like the Shun one I found out months ago and that Langly corrected, but if people do not test and submit bugs, how are things ever gonna be better?
Your way of thinking simply makes no sense and I think Nightfyre has been exceptionally calm and polite in trying to explain you why.
From my point of view the best you can do to return this kindness is accept his tips and use them to your own advantage into becoming tomorrow an even better player than you were yesterday.
We all need to grow constantly, nobody's perfect.
You've been granted a precious chance to grow that we don't all get everyday alas, I think it would be quite silly to miss this chance.
To get back to the topic at hand since it's not my intention to over-lecture you too much as I feel I'm really not in the position to, Spreadsheest are a powerful tool.
A lot of people lack the knowledge to know how to make good use of them (myself included at times, alas).
Spreadsheets aren't something where you blindly put numbers and use them as a weapon to win arguments on forums, as a way to make your personal opinion invincible and attack other people's.
It's a tool that has to be used with intelligence and can provide useful data.
Nothing more, nothing less.
As such it's incredibly useful but it doesn't automatically provide "truth of the universe" style data :D
You need to understand how to use it, and you need to understand which conclusions to get from the results provided, period.
Concerning Kujaku+1 I think I already briefly addressed it when me and Capuchin provided some (I hope?) useful data on offhand tier lists many pages ago.
I think there is a spread bias for many people about Kujaku+1 and it goes both ways.
On one side people who don't want to spend 80+ mils on a niche tool and are looking for confirmation to the fact they don't have to (as such they try to bash the weapon's utility)
On the other side people who spent a lot of time/gil on it and want to demonstrate that it's so incredibly useful, as a way to justify their money/time was well spent and they didn't waste it.
Where is the truth? In my very very humble opinion, it's somewhere in between.
I don't think Kujaku+1 is worth 80+ mils, but "worth" is a highly subjective value, very dependant on your resources.
Kujaku+1 is never the best offhand to use in all situations, but in some situations it can be a very powerful (and fun!) tool to have at your disposal.
Similar to the 115 WKR Katana, but useable in a larger amount of situations given the higher ilevel it provides.
Just my two cents on it.
I think there is a spread bias for many people about Kujaku+1 and it goes both ways.
On one side people who don't want to spend 80+ mils on a niche tool and are looking for confirmation to the fact they don't have to (as such they try to bash the weapon's utility)
On the other side people who spent a lot of time/gil on it and want to demonstrate that it's so incredibly useful, as a way to justify their money/time was well spent and they didn't waste it.
Where is the truth? In my very very humble opinion, it's somewhere in between.
I don't think Kujaku+1 is worth 80+ mils, but "worth" is a highly subjective value, very dependant on your resources.
Kujaku+1 is never the best offhand to use in all situations, but in some situations it can be a very powerful (and fun!) tool to have at your disposal.
Similar to the 115 WKR Katana, but useable in a larger amount of situations given the higher ilevel it provides.
Just my two cents on it.
[+]
Asura.Azagarth said: »
PS: Why is spreedsheet showing Achiuchikapu as best dps offhand katana? I have moved gear/mob lv/buffs all around it I get it winning nearly always lol. Someone else give it a try maybe I broke the spreedsheet....
Redownload and try again?
It's not like achiuchikapu is a terrible offhand in some situations. It's low delay and has DA and store tp. Just like sometimes I get Ochu winning. You may find a scenario of buffs where it can do some good.
Speaking of which, you can find a semi-detailed report performed by me with contribution by Capuchin and other people a few pages ago, where we gave a look at how the tiering of 4 different offhand change according to the scenario, the needs and the buffs provided.
We examined:
1) Shigi (aug)
2) Ochu (perf aug)
3) Kanaria (very good augs)
4) Taka
Shigi was pretty much always the winner when you needed acc, the other 3 were pretty close and one was better than the other according to different situations, different buffs, different WS used and different mainhand.
You can check a more detailed report if you dig a few pages ago.
Kujaku+1 was also briefly mentioned, in some situations (not many tbf, but certainly more than Taikogane) it's pretty *** nice.
Concerning Achiuchikapu it's still one of the lowest (THE lowest?) delay katana with some nice accuracy DA and STP. Can easily see it beating other options when the STP bumps you up a tier, despite the low damage and lack of raw stats other than acc.
We examined:
1) Shigi (aug)
2) Ochu (perf aug)
3) Kanaria (very good augs)
4) Taka
Shigi was pretty much always the winner when you needed acc, the other 3 were pretty close and one was better than the other according to different situations, different buffs, different WS used and different mainhand.
You can check a more detailed report if you dig a few pages ago.
Kujaku+1 was also briefly mentioned, in some situations (not many tbf, but certainly more than Taikogane) it's pretty *** nice.
Concerning Achiuchikapu it's still one of the lowest (THE lowest?) delay katana with some nice accuracy DA and STP. Can easily see it beating other options when the STP bumps you up a tier, despite the low damage and lack of raw stats other than acc.
Asura.Sechs said: »
Concerning Achiuchikapu it's still one of the lowest (THE lowest?) delay katana with some nice accuracy DA and STP. Can easily see it beating other options when the STP bumps you up a tier, despite the low damage and lack of raw stats other than acc.
I was at my desk laughing out loud because I had a scenario with 135 content where Taka's Racc was actually increasing my melee dps, lowering my WS avg just enough to make it the superior option.
Until I turned off Daken on the setup page. Oh man, I was chuckling to myself thinking, why is my world turned upside down?! Taka, what are you doing to me.
Edit: Which actually makes me wonder why Daken is being included in the "AvgHitsPerHand" on the Melee tab of the dataset for hand 1. This name binding is used again in the Data tab for the Hits/Rnd wherein you'll also find a Shuriken/Rnd based on your racc.
So my question is... why are we using Daken's hit distribution to determine our AvgHitsPerRound for Mainhand on the Melee tab at F17/G17.
That doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Mote disappeared into nothingness not long after adding Daken, wouldn't surprise me if there are miscalculations.
I think I already asked you, but does the spreadsheet already take into consideration Daken's built-in ~100 acc bonus?
Because sometimes I made the error of looking at my "racc" in the data sheet, and saw it was a floored 20% thinking "meh, Daken gonna suck with this setup" not considering that Daken procs would have at least 100 accuracy more than what the "Racc" line in the data sheet is calculating.
All of this to say: don't be like Sechs, the Racc line can be misleading and doesn't represent Daken's accuracy.
On a side note: Hey! Taka is actually quite an awesome offhand, I got it beating Kanaria and Ochu in several situations, don't be like everyone and underestimate it :P /slap
#TeamTaka
Btw for your WIP on the spreadsheet, I think you should really add a 2100 gifts button somewhere, where if you activate it the overall summed up bonuses from all gifts (listed somewhere in another sheet) get added to the base stats.
It would be a nice improvement, and from there onwards you could decide to make it more elaborated with every new release of the spreadsheet, but as a starting point it would be pretty awesome.
Adding just the raw summed up bonuses without any in-between combination shouldn't take too long, no?
I see more complicated to add the Job Points categories themselves, but you could do that at a latter time honestly, I see the gifts more relevant for now.
I think I already asked you, but does the spreadsheet already take into consideration Daken's built-in ~100 acc bonus?
Because sometimes I made the error of looking at my "racc" in the data sheet, and saw it was a floored 20% thinking "meh, Daken gonna suck with this setup" not considering that Daken procs would have at least 100 accuracy more than what the "Racc" line in the data sheet is calculating.
All of this to say: don't be like Sechs, the Racc line can be misleading and doesn't represent Daken's accuracy.
On a side note: Hey! Taka is actually quite an awesome offhand, I got it beating Kanaria and Ochu in several situations, don't be like everyone and underestimate it :P /slap
#TeamTaka
Btw for your WIP on the spreadsheet, I think you should really add a 2100 gifts button somewhere, where if you activate it the overall summed up bonuses from all gifts (listed somewhere in another sheet) get added to the base stats.
It would be a nice improvement, and from there onwards you could decide to make it more elaborated with every new release of the spreadsheet, but as a starting point it would be pretty awesome.
Adding just the raw summed up bonuses without any in-between combination shouldn't take too long, no?
I see more complicated to add the Job Points categories themselves, but you could do that at a latter time honestly, I see the gifts more relevant for now.
Asura.Sechs said: »
Btw for your WIP on the spreadsheet, I think you should really add a 2100 gifts button somewhere, where if you activate it the overall summed up bonuses from all gifts (listed somewhere in another sheet) get added to the base stats.
It would be a nice improvement, and from there onwards you could decide to make it more elaborated with every new release of the spreadsheet, but as a starting point it would be pretty awesome.
Adding just the raw summed up bonuses without any in-between combination shouldn't take too long, no?
I see more complicated to add the Job Points categories themselves, but you could do that at a latter time honestly, I see the gifts more relevant for now.
It would be a nice improvement, and from there onwards you could decide to make it more elaborated with every new release of the spreadsheet, but as a starting point it would be pretty awesome.
Adding just the raw summed up bonuses without any in-between combination shouldn't take too long, no?
I see more complicated to add the Job Points categories themselves, but you could do that at a latter time honestly, I see the gifts more relevant for now.
Yeah, I've already mapped out the gifts in the Other Lists tab I just haven't had a chance to add a field to the setup page, and then subsequently to the data page to add in the extra bonuses yet.
Perhaps this week? I do my best work on the spreadsheet while I'm at work getting paid to do other things. :D
I think Taka may only win when you're basically Acc/Attack capped, or so buffed out the wazoo that it's lower delay and stat+ won't effect the majority of your damage (WS Results).
Edit: If I can get any input from others, I will remove the Daken hit distribution from AvgHitsPerHand for both sets since Shuriken/Round has it's own line in the data page. (B252/C252)
Yeah, I've found it to pull ahead when you have a lot of buffs. The low delay high DMG is pretty nice and, depending on your gear, it can bring Daken accuracy on par with your melee. I wish Ochu had non-hybrid stats like Taming Sari >_>
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Perhaps this week? I do my best work on the spreadsheet while I'm at work getting paid to do other things. :D
Quote:
I think Taka may only win when you're basically Acc/Attack capped, or so buffed out the wazoo that it's lower delay and stat+ won't effect the majority of your damage (WS Results).
I seem to recall it was winning in many scenarios, not just acc/att capped. When acc is far from being capped Shigi destroyes anything else anyway, and I think it was the only scenario with a pretty big difference between those offhand options.
As a matter of fact what I remember is that all 3 of the non-shigi options were pretty close to each other regardless of which was winning and which was losing, so really not a big deal in all honesty.
DPS numbers are still there a few pages ago if people are curious :P
Asura.Sechs said: »
I don't remember, and I think Taka was producing better numbers for Kannagi owners.
I seem to recall it was winning in many scenarios, not just acc/att capped. When acc is far from being capped Shigi destroyes anything else anyway, and I think it was the only scenario with a pretty big difference between those offhand options.
I seem to recall it was winning in many scenarios, not just acc/att capped. When acc is far from being capped Shigi destroyes anything else anyway, and I think it was the only scenario with a pretty big difference between those offhand options.
Yeah, I feel like we definitely have a sliding scale of acceptable offhands based on buff scenarios.
Good news everybody!
Looking back through the sheet, I had done most of the work already for gifts... ha ha, and I just finished implementing it.
Setup!B20 and B21 will have the important fields for you. Input the amount of Job Points you have and the amount of Innin Job Points you've given yourself. (For masters this will be 2100 and 20 respectively).
The Job Point field will tally up and apply to both sets as I don't feel like job point spread is a valid variable (I never understood the merit split between set 1 and set 2 either)... If you want it to be a valid variable for set 1 and 2 make an argument and I'll consider it.
The data page has a Daken and WSDMG (Gifts) field around A22 and A23 that will adjust depending on your gift total. The Att Bonus and Acc Bonus field at G9 and G10 (values at H9 and H10) will show you your acc and attk bonus from gifts.
Again, you can find a copy of this here (updated as of today with gifts):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107375097/DPS%20Calculator%20-%20Ninja.xlsx
Edit: If you had just downloaded it, download it again. I fixed the evasion check for both sets (instead of using 1 evasion value for both sets)
[+]
Thanks for the update on the spreadsheet Langly!!!
Looks like the test was more than "a few pages ago" lol.
HERE is the initial test.
HERE are my personal conclusions at the time.
There's another nice test from Capuchin a few posts after, and some back/forth constructive discussion between me, him and other people.
One thing to notice about my initial test.
When I did it the Shun formula math in Langly's spreadsheet was still wrong.
This means that if we want to see which Offhand is better for Shun, then my test is still worthy.
If you wanna use it to see how better/worse Shun does compared to other WS, then those numbers might not be perfectly accurate (Shun should produce slightly higher numbers now that Langly fixed the formula)
Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Yeah, I feel like we definitely have a sliding scale of acceptable offhands based on buff scenarios.
HERE is the initial test.
HERE are my personal conclusions at the time.
There's another nice test from Capuchin a few posts after, and some back/forth constructive discussion between me, him and other people.
One thing to notice about my initial test.
When I did it the Shun formula math in Langly's spreadsheet was still wrong.
This means that if we want to see which Offhand is better for Shun, then my test is still worthy.
If you wanna use it to see how better/worse Shun does compared to other WS, then those numbers might not be perfectly accurate (Shun should produce slightly higher numbers now that Langly fixed the formula)
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