The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

NIN atm is an excellent DPS with some unique feats (magic bursts, invincible against one-hit moves that would kill others). Some could say NIN with Innin up is likely the third DD in the tier list (after BLU and DNC).

It can also tank pretty well against some targets but alas they're tipically not particularly relevant ones.



tl;dr
A nice melee DPS in a meta-game where melees are mostly irrelevant

Awesome !

Very happy to hear this. ;)

A last question, where does the NIN relic weapon stands in the weapon list @ 99 ? Does it worth it to finish it to 75 ?

Thx

With the premise that it's gonna take a lot of work to bring it to 119v3, I think Kikoku is an excellent Katana with a decent WS and a nice Aftermath.
The only issues with Kikoku I can think of are:
1) It's gotta be a mainhand weapon. The +att doesn't work offhand, not sure if the "occasionally deals double damage" hidden effect does, either
2) The Enparalyze thing could be annoying on targets that you have to avoid debuffing at all costs (but haven't seen anything like that since like Delve1?)
3) It lacks +accuracy bonus (altough the 119v3 has 269 skill so that's plenty of acc to begin with)


Math-wise I'm not sure where it stands.
I think it's Kannagi>Nagi(AM3)>Kikoku?
There's Heishi Shorinken too but I don't really know where it fits. Probably around Kikoku, either before, after or at the same level.
Heishi's AM is meh but the base stats on the weapon are nice (high base damage, STP, TPbonus etc)

Thx again !

I wanted to solo farm for a kikoku but not sure ( stopped @80 like 6 yrs ago :p ) if i can solo farm for the mythic weapon when i'll be 99 and decently geared tho... ^^; ( empyrean i'm pretty sure i cannot, right ? )

99 means nothing these days for both Kikoku and Nagi, sorry.
Either you 119v3 them or there's arguably gonna be better options for you to pick from.

I meant to farm the base weapons (75), not actually talking about the upgrade to 119v3 which i can manage that later on.

I got A LOT to catch up ! ^^;

Just as a note, and I'm a stickler for corrections on Kikoku, is that it's occasional triple damage instead of double damage. You are correct in that it will not proc when offhanded.

Also wont proc if dbl, trip or quad procs. Which is absolutely terrible considering Kannagi is triple dmg 30~50% and can proc during multihits while Kikoku is 16% and cannot. Idk why SE never changed that with v3 update.

Kannagi > Kikoku/Heishi > Nagi. All assume AM3 up.

Depends on what ws you are using as well.

Relic III metsu spam is very potent, and only falls slightly behind Heishi/Ten and slightly above Heishi/Shun spam. The gap between Kannagi AM3 up and kikoku/heishi isn't very big either. SC potential with Metsu being used is great as well.

All four are great and would be a big upgrade to whatever you would be using before. Get whichever one you feel would be a good fit for your play style.

While this is true, it's also true for all of the other RMEA so not really that significant of a difference.


Also true, but like you said it's very rarely relevant (e.g. Tax'et) - could just use a different mainhand in those awkward situations, like we would do for our Mandau THF back in Delve-heavy days.

Most of the time, the occasional paralyze proc is a minor plus. Nothing to really make a big deal about and the duration is usually pretty short, but generally not a bad thing.
* CAN be overwritten by Para 2 from a RDM, so that's not a big downside
* IIRC, at 75cap Kikoku's en-paralyze can't be overwritten with Paralyze I spell, so that could be a downside on particular mobs that must be paralyzed for some reason (e.g. locking a TP move). Caveats: I can't think of any such mobs off the top of my head (and the random para from Kikoku might actually help there if you don't have a mage that can stick the spell), and I might be wrong and the en-paralyze effect might have been changed at some point.

Similarly, Subtle Blow +10 from relic AM is absolutely a very minor bonus, but it's at least something positive (assuming you're not already at SB+50 cap from gear/Auspice). Laughable when it was the only Relic AM effect, but now it's a "huh, that's nice I guess" feature.


Again, also the case for Kannagi, Nagi, and Heishi, so while true it's not especially relevant since it's the same for all RMEA.

The extra 27 skill on all four is a decent chunk of accuracy AND attack though, and for situations requiring high accuracy you do have Shigi as an offhand that will give a massive accuracy +77 boost to both hands. That huge acc and low delay is why Shigi is often best offhand for any of the RMEA (and if less acc is required, Kanaria becomes more viable).


Yeah, Metsu does give some extra SC flexibility and is a solid WS.

Kannagi wins in most but not all situations, though it's not a huge gap between any of Kannagi-Kikoku-Heishi. Playing with buffs/gear/targets, I do get Kikoku as a clear winner sometimes. Heishi and Kikoku are pretty close, and again one or the other can win - though generally my spreadsheet testing has Kikoku a little above Heishi.

Nagi often comes in 4th now EVEN WITH AM3 up. And maintaining AM3 can be a real hassle, especially in much of today's content. If you can't keep AM3 reliably, non-RMEA choices beat it too.

I'd put it as:

Kannagi > Kikoku > Heishi > Nagi. With the gap between the first three relatively close, and Nagi having a significant drop-off.

If gil is an issue, Kannagi is a bit more expensive than Kikoku and certainly isn't game-changing enough to be the make or break issue of whether or not you can use a NIN DD (i.e. neither Kannagi or Kikoku is gonna make you beat good BLUs for DD, and either one will be competent as a slightly below the top of the pack DD).

Nagi is both most expensive to get to 119(III) and lowest performance, so is really only for a hardcore status symbol or if you happened to already have a completed 75+ Nagi and want to finish it off (it's still GOOD and generally better than non-RMEA). Though the 10,000 beits alone stings, even if you were sitting on a non-Afterglow 119 Nagi already.

Based on the groups you have access to and the ability to kill the hardest Escha NMs, Heishi could either be the easiest/cheapest to obtain RMEA, or completely outside of the realm of possibility (whereas with a lot of time/money/effort, you can solo the other three). It's not generally gonna be top of the heap, but it's solidly top 3 and one of the better Aeonics, so if you have an Aeonic-clearing group and don't want to do a Kannagi/Kikoku, it's not a bad choice at all.


This is more or less a good description, though a couple clarifications:

Melee isn't necessarily always irrelevant, and seems to be making at least somewhat of a comeback. At least in month 1 of Ambuscade melee DD has been VERY useful and SC/MB deemphasized a bit, and perhaps that trend continues (I'd guess it will). It's useful for some more melee-friendly Escha NMs and is fine as a CP party DD/SC starter.

I agree that it will be very rare for a well geared NIN, even riding full-time Innin, to out-DD a BLU or DNC with similar competence/gear - unless the need for Utsusemi or Migawari come into play. There are other DD that are similar to NIN fighting for that next spot too, like WAR (better lately than you might give it credit for), THF, etc.

That being said, NIN can fill the DD role fine for most stuff if you're not insisting on "*optimal* melees only!". My friends have no issue with my NIN being a DD in Ambuscade, CP, some Escha stuff, etc.

Kannagi AGI bonus works offhand.
Part of Heishi Shorinken stats (the STP one) works offhand.
All Nagi stats work offhand.
Of course you can't proc AM offhand but I wasn't talking about that.
But this is beyond my point which was that Kikoku could arguably be ALSO a nice offhand in some situations if only the attack worked offhand but it's not the case and I wanted him to know this before getting disapponted when it's too late! :P

Anyone have an updated spreadsheet showing Kannagi > Kikoku > Heishi > Nagi

What about the proc rate of Kikoku triple dmg when you have 40~50% multihit in gear for something that does NOT proc having such?

What I'm seeing......
The push from Kannagi ODD to OTD has changed everything.
The lack of such an adjustment for Kikoku 8~10% proc rate (gear) has left it on the bottom.

All I had to do was swap out Kannagi for Nagi in Set2 and its alrdy > Kikoku

Nagi+Kannagi > Kannagi > whatever

Note: Just going to assume Langly has his OTD modifications and such accurate

I know why your getting that outcome. Let's all pretend there are more ws's then Blade: HI. Our world magically changes from that point on.

Id rather pretend Kikoku is > Nagi+Kannagi. Meh it's all opinion beyond spreads and actually playing

That bold line is crap and you know it. If you are only going to play into one ws's strengths and ignore all the others, whats the point in even asking? Even when you pop AM3 with Kannagi you aren't just going to spam Hi the entire time. That's the problem with the sheets.

I even think Heishi is under valued in the sheets. With proper tp usage and abusing the TPbonus you are doing some insane dmg output with Ten/Shun. Keep using Hi only though. Also, hows that QC earring treating you?

Im not disagreeing with any of that... thats exactly when AM3 mythic outperforms almost all weapons ( using various WS ) if not Heishi for Shun itself. If it aint beating Shun spam vs Heishi. It's extremely close with AM3.Bunting for the fences?

Keep dropping those edits all throughout your posts, they get better every time.

I made my comments more understandable. Issue?

Nagi+Kannagi > Kannagi > Nagi > Heishimi > Kikoku

Dont burn me. Burn the spreads. They full of misinformation!

Poor use of a spreadsheet does not constitute an issue with the spreadsheet itself.

I would say misinformation gathered from such sources passed on as facts. Leaving the only way to dispute such claims by examing the source to begin with.

How about those of you with spreadsheet access currently arguing about spreadsheet results post your findings, including mob specifications, buffs, gear, so on and so forth? Arguing without evidence is going to provide literally zero benefit.

With the pre-Reisenjima spreadsheet I had, only updated REM to v3 + included Heishimi. The results were the same as Langly's downloaded spread swapping in and out wpns. Mine set vs Tojil. His I dont have up atm but anyone can download and see for themselves.

A few points about spreadsheets:

1) Remember that spreadsheets are MASSIVELY dependent on buffs, and a lot of what's enabled by default is completely unrealistic for situations I find myself in when actually playing the game. Are you REALLY running around in an Ionis zone with a COR, BRD, two GEOs both giving melee DD buffs, and Berserk Aggressor Innin all up? Guess what, that's what a lot of your downloaded spreadsheets default to and it gives misleading results if you don't adjust for situations more in line with what you really encounter.

More realistic for me? Maybe capped magical haste from mages and at least most of the time from Mighty Guard, a GEO, maybe an additional GEO or COR (and not likely both).

2) Targets matter too. Shockingly enough, gearing for Tojil is different than gearing for iLvl 140 mobs!

3) Langly's sheet that Gippali linked to above is a helpful update, but definitely has some kinks to work out, epecially regarding Relic AM model, which:

(a) Affects BOTH Set 1 and Set 2 even when it's supposed to only be on for one of them (I had Kikoku on Set 1, Kannagi on Set 2. Turning Relic AM flag on only for Set 1 for some reason increased BOTH sets DPS)

(b) Doesn't seem to calculate correctly. My Relic AM results in roughly Attack+110 under AM. Turning off Relic AM flag and just manually adding Atk+110 to my TP/WS sets in the gear tab custom line gives a significantly different result than using the AM flag, and one which I think is more accurate.


As a sample situation where Kikoku WINS, see the one I posted at this link:
http://www.filedropper.com/dpscalculator-ninjasample

Started from Langly's sheet, added a few gear pieces, including some Herculean pieces I actually use (which are not the perfectly augmented ones included by default that would probably take weeks of constant trading in Norg to get), a couple flavors of Andartia's Mantle (DA augment for the Shun set, Crit for the Hi set), etc.

Set 1 - Kikoku 119 III
Set 2 - Kannagi 119 III

Target: iLevel 135

Gear: Pretty good, and I think a decent reflection of fairly high end current gear, but not necessarily ideal pieces in each slot and definitely not the mythical "perfect" augments on Herculean gear.

Buffs:
- Capped magical haste (I used Haste II + tossed a March 2 just to cap, really simulating Haste II from mages + Mighty Guard from a BLU though)
- One GEO, with Torp/Frail (and even if I was with a second GEO, a lot of the time they're using different buffs - Vex/Attune, with a mage party, etc.)
- No COR
- No Ionis
- Sublime Sushi
- /WAR subjob, Aggressor yes, Berserk no
- Boost DEX
- Innin on... and that's a particularly interesting one, as Hi performs a lot better with Innin up thanks to the crit rate. Check it out yourself by turning it on/off for both sets! (if you turn it off in this example, Kikoku wins by a considerably wider margin) But you have to consider whether it's realistic to assume you can park behind a mob and ride Innin full time.

Additional notes: For simplicity's sake, I just used Metsu for Kikoku, Hi for Kannagi. In reality, the Kikoku user will likely maximize damage using Metsu to maintain AM and other WS in between. So it doesn't even fully reflect full potential of Kikoku.

Mythic: Also, try putting AM3 Nagi in there and look how it's below both Kannagi and Kikoku. Play around with buffs and watch how Nagi still lags behind for most situations. Then consider that's assuming Mythic AM3, which any mythic owner knows is quite annoying to maintain on a lot of current content.


Ahh... now I get what you meant. I might have missed some of the context of the discussion. Yeah, you're right that the fact Kikoku doesn't get the attack in offhand does contribute to it not being a viable option anywhere but main.

You probably also know what I was getting at though, that none of the RMEA are practical to use in offhand slot even if their non-Aftermath effects function when used in either hand. As in, even though you get the full Kannagi AGI regardless of hand (and that's of some help for Hi), it's still not enough to be worth using anywhere but mainhand.

And of course, R/M/E Aftermath works only from mainhand regardless of weapon. And really, the improved relic AM is the main reason Kikoku is competitive these days. An extra 100+ attack basically fulltime is quite nice, especially considering that it's common to not have uncapped attack on today's current high end content.

I see some serious oversights with the way Heishimi is being modeled. Blade: Ten has 15.5 fTP at 3000TP. With Moonshade that means you should be unloading at 2000~2250, not 1000~1250. The 3 second forced delay is a serious detriment to spamming at 1000~1250. Also capped or near capped attack is going to be much more common than you might think. The new Ambuscade cape is nice for combining Blaze of Glory and Ecliptic Attrition. With Idris (nearly all the GEO I group with have them so it's applicable to me) that's something like Defense - 73.15%? Either way this conversation expresses my thoughts on evaluating ninja. It's very cluttered and not clear.

Valid points elsewhere, but in this case it's possible (read: didn't check) that the spreadsheet is accurate. Adding 110 attack manually means it would be subject to any other % buffs you might have active, which would result in an inflated attack boost. Best to check against your values in game to see.

At a glance, pDIF equations aren't 100% correct in the sheet that was linked above and Blade: Ten doesn't use the new http://fTP. Blade: Jin also doesn't have fTP transfer applied, while Kamu does...?

Two seconds for WS, not three. Heishi probably should WS at 1k. Your average effective TP value is already around 2k (slightly higher if anything) when you account for 750 TPB and overflow. The bulk of the fTP increase is thus already attained, and even when you're spamming WS delay is only about 1/4 your cycle time with capped magic haste. Other weapons I would agree, but not Heishi.

Akin to how similar WS like Resolution and Rudra's behave with varying levels of TPB. Reso benefits slightly (very slightly) from holding to 2k with most weapons, then drops off again beyond that point. Lionheart DPS drops off immediately. Willing to bet it's the same story for Aeneas using Rudra's. If the scaling was swapped (smaller increase to 2k, larger to 3k) it might be a different story.

Slightly more coherent thoughts later maybe, need to sleep.

1) I've fixed the aftermath toggle for Relic AM applying to both sets
-You can see on Data!65 where it's applied for Hand 1 and Data!126 for hand two.

2) I've added a few Andartia's into it. Mainly ones I'd be messing with.

3) I've made alterations to Blade Ten's fTP values, Blade: Jin's fTP values, Blade: Ku's fTP values, and corrected Kamu's errant multiplication. (Go home Kamu you're drunk).

4) Nightfyre, I followed your discussion in regards to the BLU sheets changes for pDIF calculations though admittedly I may have missed some changes necessary. If you see anywhere in the data page where I've made a misstep. I will correct it with the right formulas.

Hope this helps~

Ah, yeah if it's 2 seconds not 3 than that will change the dynamic although I still wouldn't write off saving to at least 1250 or possibly more every time. Your white damage takes a huge blow spamming at 1000 although I don't have a good simulation for assessing this.

Since we've been talking about mainhands, I'd love some math about offhands. Anybody did some math recently?
I'm mostly thinking about 228 skill offhands, which could potentially suck especially with 269 mainhands.

There's ~41 accuracy difference between the two. When you factor 99% acc cap on MH vs 95% acc cap on OH, it's roughly ~28 accuracy difference.
That means you either have to gear for ~28 more accuracy than you need on your mainhand, or you just accept that your offhand will be ~28 accuracy away from the 95% cap. Or you can strive for some compromise in between, I dunno.
Whichever way you choose to go for, nothing is gonna be "ideal".

So... what's your opinion on this guys?
The main two 228 skill offhand I can think of are Taka (excellent OH especially for a Kannagi?) and Shigi (excellent OH in general).
Despite the huge accuracy boost Shigi grants to BOTH hands, the ~28 accuracy difference is still gonna be there.

Other offhand options? Perfect Ochu is nice for the stats it grants, and a bit of acc and att too, but it has a high delay and no multiattack/crit (but it's good if you're magicbursting, etc).
Raicho+1 produced interesting results last time I tried (and I could never understand why, it was always giving me better results than I was giving it credit for)
What else is left among offhands? Kanaria? Which stats should you head for on an OH-focused Kanaria?

...or you could use a RME offhand, but I don't think any RME is gonna be worth it offhand? The best candidate at that would probably be Heishi Shorinken because it gives STP+10? Or Kannagi for the lower delay and AGI+ if you're using Blade: Hi, I guess.




tl;dr
Offhand options: 228 skill vs 242 vs 269 katanas. Tier list according to you guys!