The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

yea I agree. thing is Ive went against the same sam prior on lower level Incursion on megaboss and I couldn't pull hate off his koga w/ my kannagi >< so can only image just how badly he out parsed me.
With Nagi tho hate was being distributed bounced around back and forth between the 3 of us like it used to be when id go against non mythic DDs. Which atleast is a good sign.

yo brah do you even excel

btw even a crappy dd can cap hate, its never a sign of who does more damage.

I just did Incursion with a mythic SAM also and he bested me by about 5% I think on parse. I was using Kannagi/TaikoAcc.

If you were using any of those two sets you posted for TP gear, you probably saw the mob bouncing with Nagi because you attacked more often due to AM3. Using those sets with Kannagi, and the SAM is probably swinging more often than you are. Thus hate staying on him.

These days its not hard to cap enmity, which is why you see the mobs spinning. So it really comes down to who did the last action, so if you attack more often, you may find yourself with more "hate" not necessarily more dps.

Just a thought though.

Nagi has Enmity *30, so all your attacks had extra hate attached to it, that's probably why you were sharing hate.

I understand that but the fact he was letting off ws faster than I could kept him tanking regardless. I was watching his tp gain vs Nagi and it wasn't nearly as bad.

Been using this for Hi w/ AM3 up ofc
ItemSet 328918
Curious how Shuriken will change my WS set if all. Also not sure what's best hands. The 2% crit dmg from WoE or att+30 hands off Shadow Lord stacking highest possible attack.

you must not actually understand. try using scoreboard and see what the actual score~ is.

In order for Daken to be worthwhile, the ranged attack has to land enough to compensate for removing Yetshila.

That being said, current content already requires accuracy food, accuracy sets and madrigals combined. I'm starting to fear this job trait will go the way of sange and just be forgotten.

It might be worth replacing Yetshila for shurikens while sange is active, but you'd have to gear for it...

It would be very, very hard for them to somehow make this trait worse than Yetshila. Anger Bomblet, a whopping 2 Attack and 1 Double Attack is only about 5 DPS behind Yetshila unbuffed. They'd really have to try to make it worse to do so.

Just in my fodder set w/ max Haste, I have 571 Ranged Accuracy. With the 220ish Racc from the skill that will be on the Shuriken, that will be up to about 790ish, or about on par with my main hand in the same situation. lol.

Then just factor in all these additional means of RAcc we are/will be receiving:

• They've said Daken will receive a Ranged Accuracy boost. If it's a flat boost, like 5-10 per tier, that will be about 25-50 RAcc. A percentage-based boost will probably be at least +40 at 5%.

• Any food, outside Pizza, we eat to boost our Accuracy, also boosts our Ranged Accuracy

• A lot of our Accuracy gear also has Ranged Accuracy on it. Ej, Yokaze, Hachiya legs, etc..

• I'd be surprised if there was no additional Ranged Accuracy on the shurikens themselves

• If I'm interpreting it right(which I very well might not be), the boost from additional merits into Sange is being changed to +25 Racc per(or +100 total). If I'm wrong, we'll still be getting +25RAcc during it's activation.

Anything short of content with a very high Accuracy requirement, our offhand will probably remain the weakest link.

I guess I went emo for a second and didn't even check spreadsheet before posting. :)

I'll have to take a look in a bit!

It would not imho, and I'm going to explain why (yes, I agree it's pretty clear that racc+25 per merit past the first is exactely what we're getting).
Daken is going to have multiple checks to calculate the accuracy of the additional attack. Racc will be one, there will be at least another one. They said their goal is to make so that Daken has more or less the same acc as our normal melee accuracy.

Why is Racc+25 bad? Because it's useless.
IF we need that +100 Racc for Daken to be in line (i.e. having more or less the same acc) with our melee attacks during Sange then it means that Daken will be utter ***during TP phase (outside of Sange), or that it will force us to use different TP gear.
Both hypothesys would be very bad.
The first would make Daken (outside of Sange) useless, the second would reduce our normal DPS to make Daken useful.

IF instead Daken doesn't need that additional accuracy and it's already in line with our melee accuracy, it means that the +100 Racc we get from going 5/5 merits into Sange would also be completely unnecessary and useless.

However you decide to look at this, it looks very very bad =/
Additional merits should have been +25% chance of not consuming Shurikens during Sange, making Shurikens free at 5/5.
Sigh...

While I'm a bit on board with the sentiment that they could have done more interesting things with Sange, I don't agree that Daken potentially being less accurate than our melee attacks means it's useless. It doesn't have to have capped R.Acc to be a significant improvement over the NOTHING we get today in terms of native bonus attacks.

For argument's sake, assuming Daken ends up similar to MNK's KA proc rate (20% with merits), and let's just pull numbers out of thin air and say that maybe Daken R.Acc when using a "normal" melee TP set ends up at 75%. That's still 15% of your attack rounds where you get a free extra attack that actually connects.

Or maybe they just monkey with the proc rate and account for lower R.Acc by giving it a higher proc rate compared to KA. Say, KA is expected to be roughly 10% more accurate than Daken, just make Daken's base proc rate (before acc check) higher so that it comes out to roughly the same number of expected hits over time. Miss more, but get more chances = we really end up in the same place, right?


Honestly, that's probably overpowered if you could run free Sange 1/3 of the time with no downside. Even with additional Sange merits just giving more R.Acc, that's not necessarily worthless:

(1) in the burst damage situations in which Sange seems likely to be useful, if Daken attempts are normally at some uncapped level of R.Acc (like the 75% hypothetical earlier), an extra R.Acc+100 could obviously help a ton, or perhaps allow for capped R.Acc during Sange/uncapped without Sange up.

(2) don't forget the relic body Sange enhancement is REALLY strong: ranged ATTACK +20 per merit. Even if any Sange R.Acc boost is completely redundant, 5/5 is pretty tempting solely for the R.Atk+100.


I think all of the points you mentioned are good.

Another one: maybe don't be overly focused on today's TP gear... perhaps R.Acc starts just showing up even more commonly on gear NIN will want to use for TP anyway - ilevel empy/Salvage/NNI, light DD sets which are already often shared with RNG COR, etc.

And like you said, a lot of good stuff is already out there like Mochi Chainmail and Yokaze Mantle. Hachiya+1 legs are one that's going to get a much closer look for TP sets when considering the R.Acc effect on total DPS.

Yes I agree. But if it needs the 100 Racc from merits to get to 95% acc rate it's hardly going to be as useful as it could have been.
Think about all the fights where you gear for acc builds (VD fights etc), think about when you get madrigals or eat Sushi.
All these situations will affect your melee accuracy only while furtherly increasing the gap between melee hits and Daken procs.

Seriously, this is wrong in so many ways...
The fact that Sange gives +racc is an important "signal" that tells us they deemed racc being useful, which implies normal Daken is going to suck :'(

The best scenario I can see atm is Daken being perfectly fine and merits in Sange past 1/5 being useless.
I seriously hope it's this way because every other Scenario I see is even worse...



I'm not getting your comparison with Kick Attack.
KA is just a melee attack, it doesn't have a special type of accuracy that's different.
And that's the good thing. It's just like an additional DA or TA proc. Whatever your melee accuracy is, be it bad or good, KA is gonna follow.

I dunno, can't help it but think they've done everything completely wrong with Daken.
I support their attempt to give a purpose to Throwing skill (I capped for that reason a few days ago), but if THIS is the result then it kinda makes me wish Daken didn't rely on Throwing at all.
[/emo]

You're exactely giving a shape to my fears I talked about before.
Going this path they are forcing us to rely on different and weaker gearing paradygms.
Will the DPS loss from using different gear be compensated by the additional Daken Accuracy?
Because we Ninjas don't have enough TP sets already, we needed some more to use when Sange is up, inorite?

I'm just an average Ninja and I already have 6 TP sets plus PDT and MDT ones. I cannot imagine the pain of serious Ninjas who likely have even more.


Plus, this doesn't cover the buffing thing.
Ok, Hunter's Roll covers everything, and buffs like DistractII or Geo stuff covers both Acc and Racc since they lower target's Evasion.
But what's gonna happen with a BRD and Madrigal? Surely we don't expect our BRD to Pianissimo Prelude on us?
And what about food? Sushi won't buff our Racc.
And so on, and so on, and so on.

I don't get how you people aren't pissed by this route SE took with what could have otherwise been an incredibly awesome addition to Ninja.

Sushi do buff racc.

Maybe because it isn't live yet? Really, you're whining about possible gear changes or DPS loss or whatever else based on speculation. Use it, take a parse, do some testing when it is implemented. I don't have high hopes for the trait either, but at least see what happens before you get all /emo.

I stand corrected

We'll just have to wait and see.

I'm just happy to have shuriken for my NIN.

Other point is .... don't care really for now.

You can be upset all you want about how you feel it's implemented. Doesn't change the fact that we're getting something new in the way of TP gain and extra damage. This is a win from all directions.

Daken sounds like an excellent addition to an already awesome job. I don't get where all this negativity is coming from.

So, since they're giving Daken a decent chunk of accuracy during Sange, it must have terrible accuracy during normal operation... That makes no sense. DRG gets a ton of accuracy job traits, so thus I've concluded that every other melee job can never hit anything... Really though, think about the different acc bonuses in this game. Do they ever signify something has terrible accuracy?

+25 racc is far from useless. It's intention might be to push you over the top, and give you a reason to use Sange. WTF else would you merit anyways!

Your other point, that using different TP gear would be a bad thing. If it comes to be that we increase our DPS by changing out gear, how is it a bad thing?


When are your katana swings ever "perfect" accuracy wise. If I parse 95-96% during a fight, then I probably should've eaten meat. If I'm parsing 88-90% acc eating Sole+1, then I'll be extremely greatful my shurikens have +100 more acc, and land a little better than my katanas are.

The +100 ratk by itself (from Mochi body) is worth 5/5 Sange.

I am failing to see how this is different from any other job? Why would you not make a "Sange up" set? As gdiShun stated earlier, the majority of our acc swap pieces have Racc (some have Ratk as well) on them. Doesnt seem like a negative dps wise if your already in a set you would be using for whatever crap your fighting.

I am stoked either way, always nice to have a new ability up our sleeves. SE has been doing a decent job with coming out with new and relevant abilities all around so we will just have to wait and see!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11520-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-NIN/page17

From...Grekumah
Community Rep

Correct, the job trait will use the base damage of the shuriken you have equipped. Also, we’re planning to make it so this will not activate with other types of throwing weapons such as darts – it has to be shuriken.

Additionally, as you’ve imagined, we’ll be adding shuriken with item levels in the October version update as well. Accuracy-wise, it will rely on your ranged accuracy, but as this might make things a bit difficult to hit, we’re also currently looking into having some type of modifier.

Also, naturally you’ll still be able to use shuriken as a ranged weapon, but if you do use them like this, the shuriken will be consumed as usual.

Meanwhile, a possible TP set:

ItemSet 328941

This would be used for "Full Dual Wield".
At the breaking point of ~30% haste you would swap head for Felistris Mask.
At the breaking point of capped attack delay you would also swap earrings and belt, being left with 11% DW from Body+Legs.
Let me keep going with this semplification of these 3 attack delay break points (full DW, haste30, no DW)

Full DW: It's a small DPS loss given Hachiya legs in place of Mochizuki and Hachiya hands in place of other options (Otronif, Onimusha etc). Qaaxo Patch C is also slightly behind Otronif with good augments, but it's a small difference. Overall no big deal, and also given how much haste you can get from Trust these days the utility of this set is arguable. At the same time, it's arguable to say you need racc/ratt for a set like this, since you're likely to deploy it against stuff where you're probably going to be capped regardless of racc in gear.

Haste30: Slightly bigger DPS loss for the lack of ThaumasBody/Qaaxo Harness.

No DW: Things get a big worse here, because there's 11% DW you're unable to get rid off. Atm this actually creates a negative bonus (reduces TP/hit) but with the next patch they should remove this. Still, you would get nothing from DW in those 2 pieces sadly.


Overall the situation doesn't look that bad on a second look.
We lose some multiattack/crit and other minor stuff. Sange totally will I have no doubt about it, but Sange has the problem of inventory space I guess.
I think there's a good chance Daken might be better than the DPS loss from those missing stats.
Think about how high in base damage was the best Shuriken back at level 75.
If they follow that pattern when updating shurikens to ilevel they're gonna have a really really high base damage.

I still have mixed feelings about the route they took to implement this (meaning that Daken will probably leave a sour taste in the back of my mouth because it could have been even better), but in the end I'm starting to believe it's going to be a really nice addition adding a bit of spice in our gearing paradygms.

All of the previous post is supposing that Grekumah's post won't become reality (i.e. Daken won't have multiple accuracy checks but will just rely on Racc+Throwing skill. Call me a pessimist but I think this is exactely what's going to happen).

In the best case scenario instead, a scenario where Daken has multiple checks and gets more or less the same acc as our melee hits, then nothing would change much in our TP paradygms compared to what we use now, aside from making sure Mochizuki Chainmail +1 is equipped when Sange is up.
Personally I don't expect this to happen, I'm really skeptic in SE creating a complex multicheck formula for Daken, but hey, I'm ready to be surprised.

SE is stopping the AH sales of IGa and Fuma Shurikens. Assuming they are bumping stacks up to 99.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29/page27

Nice! Stoked for this update to hit

40% is huge; now if we get shuriken with as much dmg we had at 75 compared to katana this will really be a huge buff.

So, the Dual Wield TP gain will remain as-is (sorry non-ninja jobs that were hoping for a faster TPS gain) but Daken will activate a lot, be based on R.acc, but have a significant r.acc bonus, and be 40% proc.

I'm sold.

Also, we should get a base of 5.2TP return from it. Pretty good.