The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide

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The Sealed Dagger: A Ninja Guide
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By SimonSes 2019-12-16 13:49:41
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Bismarck.Ringoko said: »
Offhand TP bonus shouldn't work also :[

Why? Tp bonus offhand require a lot of sacrifices (white dps, accuracy etc.) to work. Nothing wrong about it.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 14:03:25
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offhand envy xD

The fix is to just buff NIN, but they don't wanna do that cuz then you have a really strong DD that can rarely be hit (but then again RUN exists so idk)
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By Ramuh.Austar 2019-12-16 14:21:02
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SimonSes said: »
Bismarck.Ringoko said: »
Offhand TP bonus shouldn't work also :[

Why? Tp bonus offhand require a lot of sacrifices (white dps, accuracy etc.) to work. Nothing wrong about it.
so idiots stop using it because it's "bis" when nobody these days understands what situational means.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-12-16 14:34:32
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Capuchin, Langly, WRU?!

Come subdue my doubts!

I don't know what you want me to say. :(
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By SimonSes 2019-12-16 14:51:31
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
so idiots stop using it because it's "bis" when nobody these days understands what situational means.

I understand where are you coming from, but thats still not a solution. Gtfo from my Thibron and Cento (I know its a nin thread, but that change would be general, not a katana specific :P)
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By fonewear 2019-12-16 16:50:42
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Is Ninja great yet ?

It is kinda sad though I really like ninja but have almost zero reason to play it.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-12-16 16:54:57
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SimonSes said: »
Bismarck.Ringoko said: »
Offhand TP bonus shouldn't work also :[

Why? Tp bonus offhand require a lot of sacrifices (white dps, accuracy etc.) to work. Nothing wrong about it.
I assume he meant the TP bonus gun, since the topic was on Savage Blade COR.

Getting a free 1000 TP Bonus for almost no sacrifice when ranged attacks aren't needed/useful is pretty crazy, and part of why COR can melee far above its job design.
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By fonewear 2019-12-16 16:57:51
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huttburt<3 said: »
nin kinda sucks right now. I was upset after I got the aeonic and did stuff with it. I mean i like the job tho. I'm not sure what i'm trying to say.

Agreed but it is fun to throw shurkiens at things !
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-12-16 17:38:33
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If they made ninja like Ginjirou from Guardian Heroes it would be amazing... dude’s ninjutsu and move set was elite



Matter of fact, I just got nostalgic. Who can I pay to make me ninja AF recolored like the above, or how can I do it myself? I’m feeling like being a nerd for a few hours
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-16 17:52:36
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Just to be clear...

For NIN, TP bonus offhand katana (Hitaki) isn't really worth making IMHO. Even in situations with capped accuracy and using a WS that benefits from TP Bonus (Blade: Ten), it's no better than a slightly worse option to the standard ilevel options like Kanaria, Gokotai, Fudo Masamune, Tauret, etc. It's not BAD and can reach sidegrade-ish territory in those situations that most favor it, but it also isn't the best.

And that's just for Blade: Ten with minimal acc concerns. TP Bonus offhand falls WAY behind with any other WS, or on targets where acc matters.

Given that it's never significantly better, and often significantly worse... don't bother.

FYI, while I've messed around with it for fun, it's also not really that much of a viable alternative to do Naegling mainhand (using Savage Blade) and TP bonus offhand, like a COR or BLU or something could do. NIN already has its katana WS with slightly better TP mods than Savage:
SB: 4.0/10.25/13.75
Ten: 4.5/11.5/15.5

Savage does has somewhat more potent stat mods in 50%STR/50%MND (eww MND, but still) versus Ten's 30%STR/30%DEX, plus Naegling's innate 15% boost to all hits of Savage. And that CAN situationally be slightly better DPS than Katana with Ten spam if comparing to a non-Aeonic katana... but the downsides are:

1) If you're spamming a TP Bonus-centric WS on NIN, ideally you're using a Heishi mainhand in the first place... which gets another 500 TP Bonus for Ten, crushing the perks of Naegling and SB.

2) Sword loses 51 skill versus Katana, which is a potential acc issue for Naegling versus even non-Aeonic katanas.

Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
Capuchin, Langly, WRU?!

Come subdue my doubts!

I don't know what you want me to say. :(

I mean, yeah, me either! NIN is obviously not in as good a position damage-wise as other melees at this point. What it really adds is that (dreaded) defensive "utility" of having tons of shadows and Migawari for great evasion of OHKOs, top of the line offensive gear having a lot of Meva (Kendatsuba +1, which I often 5/5), and the ability to switch to a legitimate tank stance on the fly with Yonin (assuming fighting something that doesn't AoE wipe all shadows frequently).

It's not THAT bad offensively though. We have a couple good NINs who come to Dyna and are pretty competitive on the parse. They shouldn't beat a similarly buffed SAM DRG DRK whatever... but a good NIN shouldn't be embarrassing from a DD perspetive. Now, if SE revisits katana WS and give them a bit of a buff a la H2H (and, to a lesser extent, Scythe), or access to DRG's WS Damage Boost trait or something similar... honestly, NIN would be back in business from a DPS perspective.

Along with MNK and THF, NIN also does very good white damage relative to some jobs that are much more heavily skewed toward WS on the WS/TP split. That's one of the reasons I tend to use Kannagi a lot as a most practical choice for a lot of situations where I'm NIN. If I wanted an all out WS>TP split like the common current DPS meta, I'd be better off on another job altogether - not on NIN trying to be a -1 version of other DDs by using Blade: Ten or Shun. And I sometimes run into real world situations where, while it isn't OPTIMAL DPS, playing toward the white damage strength can help when I'm doing something like dual-boxing and giving frequent attention to the other character (so, not necessarily hitting all my NIN WS right at the optimal time). That's in addition to stuff where there's some reason to hold TP (Amnesia, holding WS to allow others to SC, etc.). Of course, same approach also works with Empy MNK THF DNC, so this isn't necessarily a NIN-only application (I just kinda like NIN more than those jobs).

Otherwise, I NIN:
- for the defensive benefits, situationally
- for the ease of self light/dark SC (especially with Kikoku)
- cuz it's cool, man (this is the REAL ANSWER)

One day NIN will rise again for more mainstream use, and I'll be ready.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-16 23:53:25
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Nouuu! I was talking about this post.

Basically Gokotai vs Aug Shigi for situations where you want lots of acc.
At first I was all for Gokotai, but with a closer look I think I like Shigi more.
I dunno, I want more opinions!


Go Langly/Capu, go! XD
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-17 05:28:34
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I'm gonna be contrarian and say neither, Fudo Masamune is my heavy acc offhand of choice ;)

But I'm also needing to go to sleep now, so I'll probably come back later and expand on that.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2019-12-17 17:10:53
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Your options probably won't come down to what offhand you should be using, since you'll usually outdamage your Gokotai by using a Tauret.

Can you alter your food/buffs/gear to get the requisite acc?

At this point, your question may be closer to a game of inches, in a race governed by miles.

:)
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By Gasho 2019-12-17 21:31:17
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hello

what is the best Katana now?

i see a lot of players getting relic is it the best now?

i have aeonic katana, what can be a good off hand for it?

+ i have empy items ready, was going to make almace,

how is Kannagi doing now,
~~
can anyone share nin ws sets please

thx xD
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-18 03:09:31
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Quetzalcoatl.Langly said: »
Your options probably won't come down to what offhand you should be using, since you'll usually outdamage your Gokotai by using a Tauret.

Can you alter your food/buffs/gear to get the requisite acc

I pretty much agree with this as the most practical answer. If you're struggling that badly with accuracy (especially considering NIN's generally pretty high acc gear), good performance is probably more a matter of fixing buffs than swapping offhands.

Honestly, I use Tauret offhand the vast majority of the time across all situations (and somewhat of an aside, I see no real point in Gokotai for anyone with RMEA katanas, other than completionism - especially since not only is Tauret a little better and similar use cases, but Tauret is also useful for lots of other jobs while Gokotai is NIN only).

If I did need mega super acc, I'd go Fudo Masamune offhand - especially since if you need that much acc, it's a pretty safe bet you're also not capping atk (and thus will get a lot of benefit from the up to Atk+105 on Fudo/7 shadows). So Fudo prob wins that scenario. But more often than not, I'll just use Fudo as a situational tanking mainhand when the need arises. It's still pretty good as an offhand though, so at the very least it's not a real liability in Dynamis[D] if you're working on upgrading one.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-23 03:07:24
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Shower thoughts: what about this for a NIN job adjustment in 2020...

Assumptions:
- SE is reluctant to just let NIN be totally on par with other DPS jobs from a pure physical/melee damage standpoint while also retaining the additional benefits of Utsusemi/Migawari (and to a lesser extent, elemental ninjutsu... LOL). They got burned by unexpected NIN tanking in the past, and ever since then they have never fully trusted buffing NIN's offense in fear of inadvertently making it too "game breaking".
- They also aren't gonna do major system mechanics changes, so we're more or less tweaking and re-purposing existing game logic, changing numbers/modifiers in existing calculations (like the recent buffs to H2H and Scythe WS), granting new or higher levels of job traits, etc.
- They seem to want to do SOMETHING with ninjutsu to give NIN a niche, despite utterly failing to do so with their halfhearted recent attempts via merit changes (and the related disappointment of the augments via reforged relic armor).
- They aren't against further updates to jobs that they've already touched. This is pretty apparent from BST getting a new adjustment in January after one a couple months ago, recent DRG adjustments, multiple PUP adjustments since Jan 2019, etc.

NIN Changes:
Make Innin, Yonin, and Futae into THREE mutually exclusive and un-dispellable stances (timers such that you can keep any of them up fulltime, same 3min recast as now seems fine). Remove the dumb positional requirements and decay over time from Innin/Yonin and just give them flat values for:

Innin
Enm-, Acc+/Eva-, Crit rate+ and crit dmg+ [new], WS Damage Boost [new] (like the recently added DRG job trait). Basically, the melee DPS stance. Beefs up current melee ability a bit by adding crit dmg+ and WS Damage Boost to the mix, but otherwise more or less used for the same purposes. Balanced to close the gap on offense between NIN and top melee DDs, but not with a goal of giving NIN total parity with purely DD-focused (your SAM WAR DRK DRG MNK etc.)

Yonin
Enm+, Eva+/Acc-, Magic Evasion/MDB+ [new], maybe some DT or PDT- II [new]. Again, same idea that it gives the same types of buffs currently granted by Yonin, but beefed up a bit with some defensive perks like Meva/MDB/xDT-. Enmity is actually pretty good already (and Yonin should retain its current additional enmity generation from casting Utsesemi), but if you wanna adjust that to give NIN even more enm+, fine! Obviously the tank stance.

Futae
(a) Increases MAB, Magic Burst Bonus (or MBB II), and Ninja Tool Expertise. Gives a WS Damage Penalty (idea being to penalize traditional physical melee DPS and make the NIN forego that in favor of significant buffs to a magic-oriented damage);
(b) Adds a Cascade-like effect to all elemental Ninjutsu (every elemental Ninjutsu cast consumes all current TP in exchange for a magic damage boost); not necessarily the same multipliers as as BLM's Cascade, but same basic mechanics; and
(c) elemental ninjutsu ignores the "nuke wall", if not entirely, at least something like Rayke's reduction to the consecutive same-element nuke penalty

Impact:
- Innin and Yonin close the gap a bit with more dedicated DD/tank jobs, but don't eclipse them (fair, since NIN has additional benefits).
- Futae adds a new niche for a melee-oriented magical DD; this would have some synergy with parties composed of stuff like COR, RNG, backline nuking jobs and their related nuke-oriented buffs/debuffs (e.g., Acumen/Malaise, Wizard's Roll, etc.). Buffs should allow for strong sustained magical damage on par with other top end magical-oriented DPS jobs.
- Buffs the magical aspect of NIN that SE seems to really want to do something with, but they are struggling with what exactly that should be. Pushes the NIN to keep meleeing, but instead of fighting the unwinnable arms race with WS damage as compared to other physical DDs, gives NIN some room to differentiate as a master of turning your TP into magical damage.
- It even gives Nagi a niche! Mythic aftermath would be tremendously useful for TP generation to convert that TP into powered-up nukes (even though the weapon is connected to a relatively poor WS for physical damage), plus Macc+40 on the weapon is helpful. Since Nagi has been left in the dust by the other RMEA for melee DPS, and has lost its spot as the best tanking mainhand to Fudo Masamune, this gives it a purpose other than as a Mijin Gakure macro piece.

Potential issues:
- TP Bonus shouldn't apply to the Cascade-like effect of Futae. Could be too much of a balance issue (especially with Heishi and TP Bonus magian weapons existing).
- Some people might not feel that Futae NIN would be worth bringing over a COR, since COR has similar ability to convert TP to magical damage through Leaden (and Wildfire) but ALSO has powerful buffs. However, may still be workable since (1) NIN has more flexibility in element, (2) NIN gets better defensive tools in Utsu/Miga, and (3) there are only so many great buffs for a magic damage-oriented party (counter-point, can still use at least 2 CORs for Wizard's/Warlock's and Samurai/Tactician's... other stuff like Fighter's/Hunter's has some use, but there are diminishing returns to cramming a bajillion CORs in one party)


Am I crazy, or does that sound like a somewhat reasonable proposal to give NIN a boost without being totally out of whack in terms of job balance?
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-23 03:31:22
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You forgot swapping Feet and Head relic augments! But sure, I'll second your request <3
Don't see changes of that magnitude ever coming into reality alas, but it's nice to dream.
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By Butcherb0y 2019-12-23 04:00:36
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Been thinking bout this. What if they make Futae synergy with either yonin or innin. Example with just futae outside of yonin or innin, it's your traditional futae, but let's say futae while under innin, you dispense more tools for more dmg like for example.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2019-12-23 04:19:18
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Yeah, I'd love them to do SOMETHING better with Futae. Got to thinking about it tonight doing Dyna... Futae nukes are kinda nice sometimes, but man, that 3min timer (and it hurts my soul when I'm about to MB my once-every-3min good nuke and someone slips in there and breaks the SC)...

Either need to make the timer shorter, or do something like my stance idea, or make each Futae more meaningful than just turning a "not worth the time to cast" non-Futae nuke into merely "respectable". That's just not good enough. Especially considering the seeming desire from the devs to tweak elemental ninjutsu, this seems so obvious...

Asura.Sechs said: »
You forgot swapping Feet and Head relic augments!

Yes, that too!

And I realize this is kind of pie in the sky dreaming, but hey - I don't think it's totally unrealistic. Perhaps I was inspired by the really clever PLD changes this past update, I really dig what they did with Majesty from a design perspective. Pretty inspired stuff!

Maybe I'll revisit the official forum to post something in the next few days... The recent screenshot contest (Byakko hat!) reminded me I do still have a login...
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-12-23 04:41:02
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In all honesty it's more plausible they gonna swap the augs on feet/head (we have something like that happening for RDM a few months ago after all) than all the sexy stuff we're dreaming about in this thread :-P

But w/e, I'll take anything they'll throw at us. Supposing they even intend to throw SOMETHING at us and don't consider the NIN Job adjustments "done" with the merits thing they did a couple of months ago...
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By Butcherb0y 2019-12-26 15:14:33
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Do you all use this for hybrid WS and ninjutsu spells?

Orpheus's Sash
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By Asura.Cicion 2019-12-26 17:00:09
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In a perfect world for me they would swap the yonin aug with the mab aug on feet. I kinda like the 5% Weaponskill bonus for blade: Chi with innin 5/5 when i ever use it with relic head. While the mab aug is pretty big 25% Ninjutsu dmg. How many people would merit it? I mean i used it for sure when I Job pointed in MB pts on nin a year ago with Ice nukes before the merit update to nin. It was great popin 99k Futea ice nukes occ with good setups. Hell if they combined ninjistu mab and macc into one merit that would of been something of a stronger option.

Ya i use Orpheus for Hybrids WS and Ninjutsu nukes.

While i do loathe this Naegling savage spam seems to be the best WS for most things i ever get to bring nin for. Esp if you make tp bonus offhand katana and can make it work. Doing dyna bastok recently wave one as nin/war bergressor when its up eating red curry bun good att buffs from 4song bard and cor, geo frail on mobs wave one. Blade ten doing 23-28k (Not useing tp bonus offhand as i find its a waste with sam roll and i always get over 1250 tp a round before i WS usually)with r15 aeonic. Swap to naegling savage with tp bonus offhand i'm hittin 38-42k.
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-10 15:53:37
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Mochizuki Kyahan augments in game say:
Enh. Ninj. Mag. Acc/Cast Time Red.
Which implies that they are a fast cast type of feet for ninjutsu,

whereas BGwiki says:
Augmented with Adds "Increases Ninjutsu Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack Bonus"
Increases Ninjutsu Magic Accuracy by +3 per merit for a maximum of +15.
Increases Ninjutsu Magic Attack Bonus by +5% Ninjutsu damage per merit level, for a maximum of +25%. This is a separate multiplier than Magic Attack Bonus.

Anyone care to clarify?
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By Asura.Chiaia 2020-01-10 16:58:46
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Leviathan.Draugo said: »
Mochizuki Kyahan augments in game say:
Enh. Ninj. Mag. Acc/Cast Time Red.
Which implies that they are a fast cast type of feet for ninjutsu,

whereas BGwiki says:
Augmented with Adds "Increases Ninjutsu Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack Bonus"
Increases Ninjutsu Magic Accuracy by +3 per merit for a maximum of +15.
Increases Ninjutsu Magic Attack Bonus by +5% Ninjutsu damage per merit level, for a maximum of +25%. This is a separate multiplier than Magic Attack Bonus.

Anyone care to clarify?
Yea, for the last 6 months SE has never corrected their translation error. What the wiki has is correct.

[923] = {id=923,en="Enh. Ninj. Mag. Acc/Cast Time Red.",ja="忍術の魔命アップ\n忍術の魔攻アップ"},

忍術の魔命アップ <--Nin Macc
忍術の魔攻アップ <--Nin MAB

You only get the bonus if you have merits into those categories.
 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-01-10 23:33:43
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thanks
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2020-01-11 01:52:38
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
I see no real point in Gokotai for anyone with RMEA katanas, other than completionism - especially since not only is Tauret a little better and similar use cases, but Tauret is also useful for lots of other jobs while Gokotai is NIN only

While you do have a point in regards of Tauret being more useful to other jobs, but I have to state that "Blade: Ku" shouldn't be taken lightly and building Gokotai might be a good idea after all.

At 1k TP in capped "zerg" situations you can get up to 50-55k DMG on AVG provided you have a good set and the spikes of 70k spamming Blade: Ku subbing DRG.

I usually Gokotai/Tauret in Zerg situations and Kikoku/Tauret or Heshi/Tauret in multi-step situations, even in solo situations I started to appreciate Gokotai more than the rest due to its fast TP from regain.
Lets see what SE has in store for NIN..
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By Bismarck.Ringoko 2020-01-11 02:24:22
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
I see no real point in Gokotai for anyone with RMEA katanas, other than completionism - especially since not only is Tauret a little better and similar use cases, but Tauret is also useful for lots of other jobs while Gokotai is NIN only

While you do have a point in regards of Tauret being more useful to other jobs, but I have to state that "Blade: Ku" shouldn't be taken lightly and building Gokotai might be a good idea after all.

At 1k TP in capped "zerg" situations you can get up to 50-55k DMG on AVG provided you have a good set and the spikes of 70k spamming Blade: Ku subbing DRG.

I usually Gokotai/Tauret in Zerg situations and Kikoku/Tauret or Heshi/Tauret in multi-step situations, even in solo situations I started to appreciate Gokotai more than the rest due to its fast TP from regain.
Lets see what SE has in store for NIN..

Would you mind posting your Ku set?
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2020-01-11 04:05:53
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I use this one at the moment, you can play around based on availability:
ItemSet 370670

Ammo:Seething Bomblet+1, Focal Orb or NQ (Aurgelmir Orbinstead)instead of HQ
Body: Adhemar Body Replaced by Ken +1
Legs: Legs replaced by Ken+1 or Malignance
Earrings: can use Lugra Earring +1 from dusk to dawn but eh..
Neck: Nodowa +1 or Fotia works too
Cape with STR+30 DA +10
All Adhemar are Path B.
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By Leviathan.Zelllo 2020-01-14 11:47:50
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I'm going to have to toss my hat in the ring in support behind gokotai as well. It's a great option for mag acc/MAB. Although I was not able to see the same kinds of numbers Kat posted (most likely due to not knowing which target those numbers were coming from), Ku is formidable with gokotai.

Here's a video with what I'm seeing with gokotai as well as some other things that are interesting:

YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-01-14 12:02:32
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
At 1k TP in capped "zerg" situations you can get up to 50-55k DMG on AVG provided you have a good set and the spikes of 70k spamming Blade: Ku subbing DRG.

I have NEVER been able to see anything close to these kinds of numbers with buffs using Gokotai/Ku, and my Ku set is 100% identical to the one posted (minus HQ orb). Can you provide some context? Buffs, Target, or just a video etc? Ku almost always hit less than Ten for me (which is between 28k-34k), so unless you're rolling with some major fighter's rolls or whatever, idk what could make your damage be almost double. Please share :3

The numbers in the video above is the average I would see with trust buffs. 50k range is higher than Savage Blade damage...
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