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Is a Mythic even feasible anymore for a newbie?
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Odin.Registry 2012-11-30 17:26:03
I'd love it if my server was only filled with competent players, but it just isn't. Instead we have 10 Daurds registered on FFXIAH. My social has 2 of them, but the best part of SE's shout-alliance content is that your friends can ditch the event once they've capped out without guilt. I can't bug them to come along so that my Ragnarok (which I still probably wouldn't use) could be slightly more competitive with my Ukon.
Ragnarok has 27 Daurds
Leviathan has 21 Daurds
I'm pretty sure that's just how every server is...
Most pickup VW shouts (watcher included) just suck. Wish I had a few more mules I could throw around for buffs and things so when I do actually happen to take pickup shouts I don't end up with Min/March and Tact/Miser's.
One of the 99 Harp/Horn BRDs here only puts up 3 songs 98% of the time.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9265
By Odin.Eikechi 2012-11-30 17:29:37
I'd love it if my server was only filled with competent players, but it just isn't. Instead we have 10 Daurds registered on FFXIAH. My social has 2 of them, but the best part of SE's shout-alliance content is that your friends can ditch the event once they've capped out without guilt. I can't bug them to come along so that my Ragnarok (which I still probably wouldn't use) could be slightly more competitive with my Ukon.
Ragnarok has 27 Daurds
Leviathan has 21 Daurds
I'm pretty sure that's just how every server is...
Most pickup VW shouts (watcher included) just suck. Wish I had a few more mules I could throw around for buffs and things so when I do actually happen to take pickup shouts I don't end up with Min/March and Tact/Miser's.
One of the 99 Harp/Horn BRDs here only puts up 3 songs 98% of the time.
Is his name playerone? LOL I remember having that harp brd for some VW, and it was bad lol
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Odin.Registry 2012-11-30 17:32:14
No it wasn't him lol.
Ninjasomethingsomething.
They also fulltimed a buncha crap and manually swapped the harp/horn so it took 6 years to put songs up.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9265
By Odin.Eikechi 2012-11-30 17:36:09
oh wait, yeah my bad.. playerone was the guy that sang EVERY song in harp, and never gear swapped. So every song was harp and fairly ineffective. I assume he was dual-boxed but *** >_< lol
So it just goes to show, the level of randoms across servers. Some people with decent gear are just terribad.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 370
By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-11-30 17:39:05
You should still be rotating BRDs... If I saw a 2 song Provenance I would leave.
It's not uncommon on our server for the starting chambers. People use Embrava + Haste for the Caturae (lock Tabula) and then sing minuet + madrigal. Sometimes they don't try to swap bards. Sometimes they do try to swap bards and the party leader/bards are so terrible at it that we either don't get a second set of songs before the caturae are agroed or we don't get them Troub'd.
Two provenance groups ago, my alliance did try to swap bards but one of the bards was so terrible that he apparently didn't have Nightingale merits and couldn't wrap his brain around the idea of bard swapping at all, which held it up/wasted buffs/meant we didn't get troub songs. Then, the Scholar that was supposed to be locking TR was so bad at it that we didn't have Embrava for part of the first chamber (no Perpetuance) or the third chamber (because TR ran out). We ended up getting Marches (in the party with the non-HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE bard) about half the time and no songs (in the party with the HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE bard).
We won, but it was ugly.
I couldn't help but laugh at your misfortune Byrth, and I'm sorry. But I do sympathize. lol
When I do Provenance runs, I set them up personally and refuse to even bother without:
SCH(Whom I know is not HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE)
DDs(Whom I know are not HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE)
The rest can generally be counted on to be solid in a pickup group. Usually warn pickup players beforehand as well, if you're not paying attention I will replace you mid run. Not trying to be a ***, just don't want to waste mine, and others time.
 Phoenix.Sehachan
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13352
By Phoenix.Sehachan 2012-11-30 17:40:50
Just wanna say that before starting to do VW I wasn't aware that people could suck so bad at a job like bard. How do you fail at bard?
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 Ragnarok.Ejiin
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 528
By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2012-11-30 17:41:56
Re:Ejiin
I really wasn't sure where to put Conqueror given the recent tests. I still have no feel for how competitive Upheaval is. But yeah, I was just trying to give a general guide.
Having made Conq mainly as a trophy piece, I've been highly pleased with its performance so far at ADL and PW. Martel and myself have been having parse wars at ADL and so far they both seem pretty evenly matched. Of course, after the embrava nerf this might spell doom for Conq since AM3 is considerably harder to build on WAR.
Out of curiosity, what buff situation would lower Koga?
Anything as highly buffed as Legion or ADL.
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Odin.Registry 2012-11-30 17:42:13
Just wanna say that before starting to do VW I wasn't aware that people could suck so bad at a job like bard. How do you fail at bard?
So much this. When people can 6-box better than you can play a single BRD that puts up 2 songs then can afk, you're doing something wrong.
By Avitori 2012-11-30 17:43:59
Servers are small enough to remember who sucks and who doesn't. Why would you re-invite anyone who can't even swap parties/cure/haste/gearswap? Tell them to gtfo and find someone who can, then remember their name.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2012-11-30 17:45:13
because ffxi is dying and shout provenance takes 2 hours to fill as is
 Lakshmi.ByrthVIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6184
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-11-30 17:45:59
Making groups is so much work. I'm one of the people that watches it once in a while and then swoops in when they're 16/18. If I'm afk and miss it, oh well.
Also, the weirdest thing I find about voidwatch groups is that the worst players are almost never the same people even when I'm not making the group. I think it's because the Reward/Effort ratio is so low, but bad players just never repeat the events.
On the downside, this means there are even more terrible bards.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 370
By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-11-30 17:46:56
Just wanna say that before starting to do VW I wasn't aware that people could suck so bad at a job like bard. How do you fail at bard?
lol that reminds me of a time I joined this pickup Ig-Alima group...
The procs were just bad... The WHMs were beyond slow. And all the while I'm like... Why am I attacking so slow? I look at my buffs and I have double minne. It took us forever to kill this Ig-Alima between no procs and bad buffs.
Me: Can we get double march for the next one please?
Bard: Until you DDs stop dying you get double Minne.
Me: ...
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Valefor.Philemon
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 436
By Valefor.Philemon 2012-11-30 18:24:52
It's amazing how terrible people are at BRD. It just boggles my mind. But it makes you really appreciate the good ones.
Ragnarok.Afania
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2822
By Ragnarok.Afania 2012-11-30 18:51:48
You should still be rotating BRDs... If I saw a 2 song Provenance I would leave.
I rotate BRDs for watcher zerg, but KI BCs I don't really see a need for it.....with embrava mule DDs already getting 2~4 attack songs. Rotate BRD takes time(every BC you should enter next right away with no down time), and any extra attack song you sing after 3~4 doesn't doesn't add much. Even without rotation, most of the time pt can finish each KI BC in 2~3 min anyways.
Ragnarok.Afania
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2822
By Ragnarok.Afania 2012-11-30 18:55:50
Just wanna say that before starting to do VW I wasn't aware that people could suck so bad at a job like bard. How do you fail at bard?
BRD wouldn't buff me because "We can still kill it without buffing you, you'll be fine without buff, and I'm too lazy to do it"(yes he straight told me this)
Relic/empy 99 BRD btw.
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6184
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-11-30 19:11:59
The majority of our White Mages never learned Haste, either. What really annoys me, though, is when I notice that they only learned the self-target version of Haste.
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard?
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Phoenix.Suji
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 962
By Phoenix.Suji 2012-11-30 19:14:25
Just wanna say that before starting to do VW I wasn't aware that people could suck so bad at a job like bard. How do you fail at bard? I remember that BRD in our group when we first met. Was at Kalasutrax and we kept asking him to sing songs but he wasn't moving at all. After a few mins of him not singing, he said, "what? nobody told me which songs to sing yet."
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1837
By Valefor.Applebottoms 2012-11-30 19:35:43
The majority of our White Mages never learned Haste, either. What really annoys me, though, is when I notice that they only learned the self-target version of Haste.
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard? Seeing as how a lot of WHM's bot... yes. lol.
You'd be surprised when some ask me why I'm casting Barspells on Qilin or other NMs. -.-
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9265
By Odin.Eikechi 2012-11-30 19:37:32
The majority of our White Mages never learned Haste, either. What really annoys me, though, is when I notice that they only learned the self-target version of Haste.
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard?
Huh?
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1837
By Valefor.Applebottoms 2012-11-30 19:38:52
The majority of our White Mages never learned Haste, either. What really annoys me, though, is when I notice that they only learned the self-target version of Haste.
I mean, keeping a three person Haste order... Is it really that hard?
Huh? He means he sees them cast it on themselves.. but no one else.
HASTE ALL THE SELVES!
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9265
By Odin.Eikechi 2012-11-30 19:39:14
Oh ok. I was like "wtf is he talkin about....?" lol My bad.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-12-01 16:45:12
Okay finally ended up finishing the simulation. Below are the player and monster stats as well as a variety of other statistics used.
Each job was given as close to the best gear possible as I could round up, including augmented hexed gear and swaps for JAs. Both jobs are using red curry buns and maximum buffs at maximum uptimes. BLU DEF downs and whatnot are not being added in.
Each job has equal buffs, both assuming perfect play from the BRD and COR for constant max level Minuets and 11 Chaos Rolls.
BLU TP
DMG: 70 + 61
Delay: 158
TP/hit: 4.8
Haste: 25% gear, 43.75% magic, 0% JA
STR: 147
DEX: 155
ATK: 621 Base, 773 Minuets
DA: 35%
TA: 11%
QA: 3%
BLU WS
DMG: 70 + 61
Delay: 170
TP/hit: 4.9
TP Bonus: +25
Critical hit rate: +5%
STR: 162
DEX: 196
ATK: 651 Base, 803 Minuets
DA: 27%
TA: 11%
QA: 0%
MNK TP
DMG: +42 (93)
Delay: 163
TP/hit: 4.8
Haste: 25% gear, 43.75% magic, 0% JA
Critical Hit Rate: +4%
STR: 160
DEX: 108
ATK: 596 (616 During Impetus) Base, 748 (768 during Impetus) Minuets
DA: 26%
TA: 6% (3% during Impetus)
QA: 3% (0% during Impetus)
KA: 27%
MNK WS
DMG: +42 (93)
Delay: 163
TP/hit: 4.8
TP Bonus: +25
Critical hit rate: +11%
Weaponskill damage: +3%
STR: 187 (186 During Impetus)
DEX: 136 (123 During Impetus)
ATK: 650 (654 During Impetus) Base, 802 (806 During Impetus) Minuets
DA: 21% (18% During Impetus)
TA: 3%
QA: 0%
KA: 20%
Monster stats:
Lv120
VIT: 120
AGI: 115
DEF: 700 (595 w/ Frightful Roar, 525 with Bilgestorm, 469 with Tourbillion)
No damage penalties or bonuses for either job.
Lv115
VIT: 115
AGI: 110
DEF: 600 (510 w/ Frightful Roar, 450 with Bilgestorm, 402 with Tourbillion)
No damage penalties or bonuses for either job.
Lv105
VIT: 100
AGI: 95
DEF: 500 (425 w/ Frightful Roar, 375 with Bilgestorm, 335 with Tourbillion)
No damage penalties or bonuses for either job.
dDEX
BLU TP
5%
10%
15%
BLU WS
15%
15%
15%
MNK TP
0%
0%
1%
MNK WS
3% (1% during Impetus)
3% (1% during Impetus)
6% (3% during Impetus)
fSTR
BLU TP
7
9
12
BLU WS
11
12
15/14
MNK TP
11(13)
12(13)
13
MNK WS
13
13
13
Store TP
BLU TP
+21
BLU WS
+21
MNK TP
+12
MNK WS
+6
Spell bonuses
STR+ 5
DEX+ 12
Accuracy Bonus
Store TP II
Triple Attack
Dual Wield III
Disseverment (5)
Vanity Dive (2)
Sudden Lunge (4)
Fantod (1)
Sickle Slash (4)
Tail Slap (4)
Acrid Stream (3)
Demoralizing Roar (4)
Empty Thrash (3)
Heavy Strike (2)
Blazing Bound (3)
Animating Wail (5)
Quad. Continuum (4)
Delta Thrust (2)
Barbed Crescent (2)
Mortal Ray (4)
Quadrastrike (5)
Frightful Roar (3)
Using these numbers, MNK's lead without Impetus is 0.97% on the hardest target here. BLU's Weaponskill Frequency is superior by 14.5% and BLU's weaponskill damage is superior by 4.7%.
During Impetus, MNK's lead increases to 7.8%. Lower multihit rate during Impetus means BLU's Weaponskill Frequency lead jumps to 20%, however the benefits of Impetus close the weaponskill damage gap and put it in MNK's favor by 5.7%.
The difference between the two goes down further on easier targets. Can't supply the actual math since it's a complex simulation, however I can perhaps provide the simulation on request via PM. You'll need some knowledge in C++ in order to use it.
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Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-12-01 17:29:03
Double post but I didn't really explain why it's like that I guess.
It was crit rate during WS and WS rate that made for slightly higher WS damage and significantly higher WS rate for BLU, the lesser crit rate advantage during Impetus TP put MNK far ahead for DPS. Impetus isn't the god buff that everyone holds it in such high regard for, it's surmountable via natural gear and stat advantages between other classes and the fact that you're sacrificing some things just to get the best out of it.
I can't speak for other 1h jobs, nor do I care honestly, but in the case of BLU, I see no reason why a good one should be any less welcome in an alliance than a MNK is between raw damage and the addition of spells such as Bilgestorm. Unless you're pchan. Then you'll just have 18 MNK mules anyway.
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6184
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-12-01 17:35:20
Could you run the simulation again with +35 DEX to each job for Boost-DEX and double marches?
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-12-01 17:38:08
Sure in a little bit, predisposed at the moment to provide whatever. Just let me finish up this dungeon
Pre-simulation prediction: Should boost MNK a little, but at the same time it'll greatly increase BLU's TP phase dDEX and add a bunch of WSC to CDC.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-12-01 18:13:37
dDEX values with the +35:
BLU TP dDEX:
15%
15%
15%
BLU WS dDEX:
15%
15%
15%
MNK TP dDEX:
3%
4%
13%
MNK WS dDEX:
15%(8%)
15%(13%)
15%(15%)
Plus 18 WSC for BLU and the accuracy benefits for both jobs. Small dDEX buffer for mobs with higher AGI for MNK with a pretty substantially massive buffer for BLU in both TP phase and WS phase. Relatively sure that there's no monster in the game with over 181 AGI to uncap BLU's WS dDEX lawl.
Anyways, the results.
With Impetus up, MNK's lead is diminished to 6.95%. BLU gains a pretty significant boost from the extra weaponskill damage and 10% crit rate during TP phase, compensating for MNK's bonus crit rate. BLU's overall weaponskill average has increased by about 9.85% while MNK's has increased by 11.3%.
With Impetus down, BLU takes the lead by 2.2%. MNK's minor gains in TP phase crit rate and admittedly major gains in WS crit rate do not come close to compensating for BLU's massive 10% spike in TP crit rate and boost to weaponskill damage.
Both of these gaps will go more and more in BLU's favor as monster AGI increases. It will take a massive AGI score to uncap BLU's dDEX under these conditions, but MNK will quickly lose %s.
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 109
By Bismarck.Azagthothe 2012-12-01 18:59:16
Unless I'm missing something shouldn't monk's delay be lower? With the haste buffs listed above "Haste: 25% gear, 43.75% magic, 0% JA" Monk would be at the delay reduction cap once you factor in Martial Arts.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2012-12-01 19:13:52
That delay value is before haste, used primarily for TP/hit calculation, and haste is listed as a separate variable for the simulation to calculate alone, it allows for easier stat changing. The delay variable includes only base delay, dual wield, and martial arts. BLU's pre-haste is, in fact, slightly lower than MNK's, and both jobs will reach the cap at around the same time.
Lakshmi.Byrth
VIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6184
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-12-01 19:15:31
That's the delay used for calculating TP, not the delay for Weapon rounds I think.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2012-12-01 19:21:03
I would still make a case for penance, more DT in TP without sacrificing haste, higher native hp in favor of MNK on most content. MNK gets much more defensive ability for much less sacrifice in damage.
BLU is at its best when it can make use of some of it's utility moves like delta thrust, stun spread, nukes for phase based monsters, procs, etc. It's comparable to MNK as a DD, but you can't really say it's equal. For that matter, on anything where dying is a decent possibility, taru will have much less average DPS than the spreadsheet displays.
If nothing defensive is relevant, neither is the correct choice.
I recently started this game and aim to be (and focus on) Dragoon. I actually just finally unlocked it after doing the Rank missions since I needed them just to gain access to the Chateau in Sandy. I'm a 50WAR/25MNK at the moment and will be doing the Signal Pearl quest to have a buddy to exp with on Dragoon as I take it all the way now.
Anyway, I've been reading a ton about Dragoon and stuff and it looks like the Mythic Polearm is the best (over the Relic and the Empryean). The Gungnir WS uses an AGI modifier and the Rongo uses a VIT one, whereas the Mythic uses STR, plus the actual weapon's bonus features look awesome. However, it also appears hard as balls in the winter to even get at 75. Hell, the steps from 75 and up with the Mythic seem easy by comparison. If I'm understanding this info correctly, I'd need to do the following:
1) Just to start the Mythic path, I need to have Captain status in Assault. Looking into that, it means I'll need to have finished all of the Aht Urhgan missions, as well as having done all 50 different kinds of Assault missions. Just to start the Mythic path.
2a) Next, I have to take down the three Beastmen kings of the Aht Urghan areas. I assume this will require an alliance.
2b) I also have to beat the four bosses of Salvage areas. I'm not 100% filled in on Salvage or how it works yet; how many I need, do I need tiers (or is it floors?) to get to the bosses. I did see I need to spend points I've earned along the way from doing the Assaults; hopefully enough to clear these.
2c) Lastly, I need to defeat Odin via Einherjar. This looks like a minimum of three fights to gain access, but really possibly nine. Alrighty...
3a) So Step 1 and 2 had looked daunting enough, but then 3 is just crazy, if I understand right. I need 100,000 Therion Ichor from Einherjar. The Talk page of the Wiki for Ichor says someone got 800 from wins. If that's correct, that's 125 fights just for this one step.
3b) Next I need 150,000 tokens from Nyzul Isle, which is different than Assault and Salvage, right? So this will be a separate thing to work on as well, and I'm not sure what the token rate is on it either...
3c) I'm trying to make sense of the Assault Memories, but it looks like I'd need to do all 50 again? Is that right? In order to get the ("<---------->") recorded. Gosh.
3d) Finally, I need 30,000 Alexandrite, which comes from Salvage, so maybe I'd have earned some along the way from Step 2b. But the FFXI Wiki says, at best, I can get pouches containing up to 99 from various NMs there. Again, at best, that's 303 of those 99 pouches, and that's highly unlikely. I know I can also buy these from people, per FFXI AH, but they go for 25,000 gil each on my server, for a total of 750,000,000 gil.
4) Lastly, it looks like I need three items from ZNMs, which in itself looks like a tiered system requiring alliances to get through. I'm not sure on the difficulty of that but, given that it's the final step before a fight, with each of these steps increasing in zaniness, I'd imagine it's tough.
Now, before anyone counters with a "it should be hard to get and you shouldn't just expect to get a Mythic weapon handed to you," I'm not saying that or going there. I'm simply wondering how someone that just started can even get into all of these. I don't have a powerful Linkshell or anything (hell, I made one that's just me and another guy so I could get on the Guildwork/FFXIAH sites) and, even if I joined one, I'd be at the extreme bottom of any totem pole. Plus the LS would be doing "current" stuff, whereas this content is sort of out of date, just to get that Level 75 version. Do people even do any of these things anymore, or are they all doing Abyssea/Voidwatch/whatever instead? And how would I even fund all of this? I know I'm new and all, but I've got about 75K to my name; I'm not sure how I multiply that by 10,000 to get the Alexandrite.
Anyway, I'm curious if this is even a feasible goal for a newbie. If so, how would one even get started? My current goal is to get Dragoon up to 99, though I would prefer not to use leeching since my Polearm skills would be awful. My Warrior's weapon skills suffered from an alliance I joined in Gusgen Mines to get it up. I thought it acceptable since it wasn't going to be my main, but I don't want my Dragoon's skills to suffer like that. Anyway, once I hit 99, then I'd like to be able to get the good stuff available for it, tackle missions and stuff, and so on. I thought a Mythic weapon would be part of that but I'm not sure if I should even bother now -- not (just) because of the difficulty of the task itself, but the potential in finding others that are basically going to be doing all this older stuff just to help out.
So yeah this is long and all, but I guess I'm looking to find out if it's even worthwhile for me to plan for this. If so, any tips? And if not, what would be an alternative?
Thanks.
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