Nyzul Isle : Uncharted

Avg is about 3 tick, if you have snake eye 5/5 or save snake eye just for this roll, you should be getting at least 3~4 tick per regain avg and should never get unlucky. Add regain spell from SCH, that's close to embrava pre-nerf if you're not 500 enhancing.

Pre embrava nerf avg SCH regain gives 5, and I often open with 300 TP. I fail to see how 4 tick can't open with 100 on majority of the mob.

Even if it's not open with 100, say open with 90, that's still 1 hit to WS, much faster than doing 4 more hit to WS.

Agreed with Afania, regain doesn't have to be all or nothing. Anything that improves your DD output on the move is a +1 for nyzul use. The community needs to form a strat that makes the most use out of everything we have, not dismiss things because they aren't as good.

I also think if someone plan to do Nyzul on this job after nerf for regain, demerit(can get it back after event, since merit point so easy to get) Fold for winning streak is good idea. Since you shouldn't waste time to bust/fold in Nyzul and longer duration means less rolling.

Maybe I don't know the dmg output of COR well enough, but I still don't think regain is going to justify replacing a double marched DD. Also, mentioning Adloquium from SCH is not a supporting argument for COR. Regain from COR by itself will usually be about half to 2/3 of what current Embrava regain is. If COR can do this AND put out damage that's near-competitive to a double marched DD... then SCH, BRD, COR, DDx3 is definitely an ideal setup post-nerf.

Also, I dunno how you're able to get 300 tp in between mobs currently. It happens, but to say it happens on the majority of mobs is absurd. Also, a lot of that TP actually comes from mobs hitting you as you are running around... which is pretty much every floor except kill all, free floors, and the boss floors.

I opened this discussion back up in the spectrum of "ideal party setups after embrava nerf." If COR is not an ideal DD replacement, then it should be dismissed from this discussion. If it is, then justify it.

Open with 100+ TP is fairly common based on my experience, and I did nyzul with only 5 tick regain embrava months ago. If previous floor is lamp etc, next floor kill all, or if it's find 1 mob floor, it's usually 300 when I engage. I WS and kill that mob, walk to next room, usually get 100+ TP again. I only won't be able to open with 100 TP if mobs are right next to each other.

I also have to point out that once you regained to over 100, having more doesn't make very huge difference. So if old embrava makes me engage at 110 TP when I walk to next mob, and tact made me open with 103, the end result is the same, that I can open with a WS right away. But engage the mob with just 20 TP every time you engage is very different from 103 TP or 110 TP.


As for embrava regain v.s Tact potency. Assuming you don't bust.

No.8 gives 1 tick, but you should never land on No.8 with snake eye, and it will always on if you save SE for it. So the chance of landing No.8 is 0. And you should always SE on 6, 9, 10. So the possible value for Tact when you roll is 5(since you stop here), 7(if you SE on 6 and fail proc), 9(SE on 8), 10(SE on 9 and fail proc) 11 (got lucky or SE on 6, 9 and proc)

No. 6 or 7 gives 2 tick, and No.6 has 25% of chance to give 5 tick. No.5 gives 4 tick and No. 9 10 gives 3 tick and 9 has another 25% to 5 tick, No.11 gives 5 tick.

If you land on
No.4=4 tick cuz you can SE to 5
No.5=4 tick
No.6=2.75 tick avg, due to 25% chance to 5 tick
No.7=2 tick
No.9=3.5 tick, due to 25% of chance to 5 tick
No.10=5 tick due to you can SE to 11
No.11=5 tick

3.75 tick avg for Regain roll, about 3/4 of potency of average SCH without 500+ enhancing. Not a math pro so everyone is free to point out if I calculate something wrong.

I agree that maybe I may ended up few TP short when I engage, but few TP is better than no TP. Hitting 4 more times to WS to kill a mob is worse than just hit once to 100. If I'm in a situation that I open with 150, or 200, or 300 TP with old embrava, then regain roll makes almost no difference cuz it's purpose is served.

You also have to consider 2nd roll slot that's more than just regain. You may not need attack in Nyzul on those EP and DC, so 2nd roll slot can be something like movement speed, every time when you warp up a new floor, if you need to do a lot of walking, toss up a movement speed with luzuf and make blink macro for rolls so you can roll/double up while running and won't stuck with animation, ppl doesn't need to stop to wait for rolls to be done if you just try to extend roll radius. Everyone, including COR himself can just head to different direction while COR tossing movement speed rolls on the way. It's not very big difference since it will wear on the way when you engage/aggro, but may save a few sec while running to your destination on lamp or 1 enemy floor.

Output wise, I couldn't find any spreadsheet with COR last stand on it, so no precise data. And spreadsheet is pointless when it comes to Nyzul anyways, since it's engage WS dead, and one shot everything with WS. So higher DPS or not doesn't affect Nyzul killing speed when there are other factors. I believe that if you can 1 shot the mob with 1 WS(which isn't impossible on paper with enough attack and last stand on bird), then it makes no difference in killing speed compare with real DDs when everyone all just engage WS one shot mob. But if you couldn't 1 shot, then lower TP phrase dmg means you will need to do 2nd WS when other melee like DRK WAR doesn't, that's probably it's biggest disadvantage. However, allowing 3 other DD in pt to open with a WS, should make up for that IMO.

Anyways, everything is all on paper, as I have no 1st hand experience to play it in Nyzul, although I'd like to try. My friend have cleared 20 floor with NIN DNC COR MNK SCH SCH before Embrava nerf though, so the question really isn't can clear or not, but optimal or not.

You seemed to pretty much ignore or have missed my last statement. But since you seem to be in to numbers, let's look at them.

Using 3.75/tick average. A tick is 3 seconds. So that's 1.25/sec

So you're looking at over a minute in between mobs to gain enough TP to WS each mob. I'm sorry, but the only time that should EVER happen is when you have floors that are specified enemy, or specified leader... *possibly* specified family.

Like I said, a lot of your tp gain comes from mobs hitting you. So stop comparing the scenario of engaging at full TP verse 20 TP.

Problem is that COR rolls take time to use, time that the DD's are sitting around with their hands in their pockets. You got 10s to do whatever it is you gotta do or you start cutting into clearing time. Also what job are you going to be removing for that COR? Currently you need at a minimum SCH + BRD (Haste / Cure + NT Marcato March's) which leaves you four spots for damage. I'd stick a BLU into one of those spots for their ability to cover random damage types and PDT monsters / Ws restricted floors / white magic restricted floors. So your looking at 3 heavy DD's for the zerg fest on boss's / enemy leader floors and general damage. Replacing one of those for a COR just doesn't seem a smart idea. Replacing the BRD with a COR is the height if idiocy (nothing can replace that amount of haste), and replacing the SCH with a COR is wipe worthy (cures are still needed and /WHM isn't going to cut it).

I was replying for your last statement.

You sound like you're getting A LOT of TP with 10+ mob hitting you while you run to your target, according to my experience, this isn't very practical.

If I got to the floor with 1 enemy or family, first thing I do is pop powder boot and flee through everything. How'd you get THAT much amount of free TP like this?

If I happened to be cheap that day and don't pop flee? I either put blink up(I play BLU in NNI), or sleep things on the way. Having 10 DC mobs hitting me while I head to target is fairly dangerous, even with regen. If only a few mob hitting me on the way, it's not that much TP.

I said start with 20 TP, some weapon actually doesn't get 20 TP after WS, that's counting the "get hit" TP too. But highly doubt you're going to get something like 80 or 90 TP with just getting hit.



You need time to cast BRD song too, why don't you do roll when your BRD's singing? You can also roll while running on the same time if you blink your JAs. COR roll has way longer duration, no way you'd ended up doing COR buff more often than BRD.

The 4x DD spot can technically be any melee job and still clear. BLU COR DD DD or COR DD DD DD, I don't see why not. COR BRD as mage plus 4x DD also seems viable if your DDs are self-sufficient job such as Apoc DRK or BLU and pop fana on boss(BRD can cure 600+ Cure 4 in NNI I think? Plus ballads)

I can argue that MNK is bad in NNI all day, and yet everyone and their mother uses MNK and clear with MNK in NNI.

I wasn't trying to argue that this job is superior or inferior choice to bring to Nyzul, since I don't have 1st hand experience and ppl been clearing NNI wit all sorts of "inferior" job such as DNC NIN THF RNG COR etc since day 1. I think it's a viable job on paper after embrava nerf, allow ppl have more chance to open with a WS upon engage(and we all know that some mobs can be one shotted with 1 WS, any additional hit to gather 100 TP is just wasting time), has powder boots access, has decent piercing WS and magical WS, and able to sleep. And I was mainly questioning that without regain, how much killing speed will drop when you have to spend more time to get TP when you engage.

TL:DR Double Up timer is ***, and bard can sing a song almost instantly, once per floor at the start should be fine.

don't need to re-roll


roll once >> run
get the other up on the next floor
>>repeat

instant JA isn't holding anyone back

Hmm Afnia doesn't know how BRD songs work.

BRD has two JA's on 10m timers. Nightingale and Troubadour. Together they double the duration of the BRD's songs while also making them instant cast. Marcato (5m recast) makes the next song have enhanced potency (half that of SV). Using these three abilities the BRD can provide an insane amount of haste to the DD's, not quite as much as Pre-Nerf Embrava but enough to make it the absolute best job for support. The BRD only has to sing one set of songs without NT depending on their gear and instrument selection.

You bring a SCH for heals, -na's, regens, Hastes (that stack with those Songs) and other generic support functions. This makes SCH the best job to bring for this slot.

Leaves you with BRD + SCH + DD x4.

You would have to replace a DD with a COR, and it would have to be one of your heavy DD's if your bringing a BLU for diversity.

Sorry but no matter how you dice it up, you end up sacrificing more then you get from that trade. NNI just isn't something that caters to COR's, just like it doesn't cater to many other jobs.

For the way damage works on NNI. There are two kinds of damage situations, tons of trash EP / DC mobs, and a few T~IT mobs. The former is on most kill-all floors (baring some NMs), the later is on Enemy Leader and later Specified Family floors. You want damage in both types, thus FC / WoR / BLU and MNK doing really well in kill all, but it's your WAR / SAM / DRK's that pull the weight on the boss floors with their focused WS spam. Going with just one type or the other lets you clear one type of objective faster but slows you down on the other types of objectives. NNI has proven to work best by including a little bit of diversity into your group so you can handle the BS that SE likes to throw at you.

Lol?


I already considered the casting speed of BRD to begin with. You sound like entire of pt will stand at rune for 1 min waiting for roll. I'm pretty confident the time COR roll 1 roll won't be slower than a BRD pop JA and sing 3 songs. I never ask entire pt to wait for roll to be done with, as soon as BRD done singing everyone can move out, COR can finish(in case you really can't finish) on the way with blink macro.

You also have to roll regain around 4 times(counting lobby) in 30 min, which isn't THAT much time compare with old embrava era or time spent on songs.


Saevel, clueless as always, and never pay attention to other ppl's point. Always just believe what you think and stubborn as always.



I don't deny pre-nerf it isn't optimal, mainly due to once you have regain, there's no point to get more when there are no difference between open with 100 or 300. And COR's strongest buff Chaos roll isn't needed on DC/EP. I was making the point purely about engage with 1 WS ready, and how much killing speed will drop if you can't engage with 1 WS ready.

I also have to point out that there are way more weak against piercing type mob than other dmg type in Nyzul.

I sound like I'm getting a lot of TP from 10+ mobs hitting me? Perhaps you're just having trouble reading English. You are aren't being consistent at all in your arguments and you're comparing apples to oranges in different situations to try and fit your arguments. I showed you the math. It's at least a minute to get enough TP from COR regain in order to WS. You say you pop flee boots and run to the target. It takes you over a minute to flee to a target?
I never said I popped flee boots with 10+ mobs hitting on me. You keep trying to put words in my mouth. If you're going to quote me and reply to me, at least reply to what I'm saying and stop making ***up.

To try and keep you on track, we're talking about the TP you gain from COR. You've claimed that with the current embrava, you're getting to 100, and sometimes 300 TP before you engage mobs. From there, you made the illogical assumption that all that TP was from the regain from embrava, and because of that bad assumption, you claim COR regain will put you up to at least 80-100 TP. Also, based off that bad assumption, you claim that all that TP is going to come from COR regain, so that without it, the DD will be engaging at 20TP compared to 80-100 TP.

My argument is that you aren't getting all that TP just from regain. By trying to argue against that with 5 paragraphs of stupidity, you're just making yourself look ignorant.

It is not inconsistent at all. Starting from hitting "up" from previous floor after clear, to get up to next floor, see the next objective, pop powder boots and look for the target, that's sometimes over 1 min depending on the target distance, or at least close. What part is inconsistent? And I also made the point about having 90 TP is fine, better than nothing. I did not ignore what you said about taking 1 min to regain to 100 TP. I was just saying unless you can get 100 with 0 regain and just mob hitting you(which is hardly possible), have regain is better than no regain.

I don't know enough about cor to say much but I do know a good amount about brd, though I'm always willing to be proven wrong, I have a few notes I'd like to make.


Marcato is a 10:00 recast not 5:00 which is mostly okay since N/T is also 10:00. But you won't be able to use it an extra time between N/T like you would be able to if it was 5min. While it was alluded to by stating the "next song", it wasn't outright said that marcato bonus only applies to a single song and not all of them. This doesn't change anything, just making sure it's known.

I count 2-4 depending on how well you time things and that's with all the duration boosts sans Carnwenhan and not counting lost duration time to floor ups not lining up with durations ending. What song duration are you basing this off? My calculations put it at 3:12 duration with Gjallar99+body+neck and 6:24 with N/T added. Note that 6:24+3:12 is only 9:36 so that's 24 seconds even if you did it perfectly, which is borderline impossible in nyzul, that you wouldn't have songs up or you would have to use another round of non-N/T songs to bridge the gap with and it only gets worse when you don't have Gjallar.

I tried to type out a post explaining the complications of a brd in nyzul, particularly one that has Daurdabla but it's just too freaking long and wordy and I don't feel it really gets the point across well. But to skip explaining situations and just state the issues:

Keeping songs up is difficult with the limited song duration(even with N/T) and the random timings of floor completion. It may result in loosing songs early.

Keeping up more than 2 songs requires even more strategy and is very likely to result in songs going down often or just gimping it with subpar(and subpar duration if you have Gjallar) songs cast with Daurdabla and not overwritten with a stronger instrument. I can't stress how much more time consuming it is when songs go down in this situation since it's far easier and less time consuming to refresh songs than to start over from scratch after loosing one.

I guess, just be aware that songs are gunna be a bit of a pain too.

For starters, you don't gain TP while you are zoning up until you load in. Secondly, you've been inconsistent by not keeping in mind the previous conditions for the basis of this argument which is proved in the following quote:

Again, comparing apples to oranges. The comparison is not "Having regain to not having regain." The comparison is "Having COR to having another DD." This discussion is under the premise that a COR is to replace a DD is it not? Obviously replacing any other position would be ludicrous.

yes songs are a PITA, but their by far more preferably then rolls, especially as the haste is irreplaceable.

Perfect back to back songs isn't realistically possible, they'll wear mid floor just like Embrava or Haste occasionally do. You try to keep their timings together, not every floor is "kill something", Lamps / ect.. don't really need those buffs. 30~60s of no songs isn't that big a deal. So yes NT double march should just require one set of in between songs unless someone is an Abyssea onry BRD or otherwise poorly built. People expect DD's to be well geared, why should we expect less from the support crew. Marcato having a 10m recast doesn't change anything, you wouldn't want to use it in between due to timers not lining up.

Ultimately the idea is that with a nerfed Embrava the next best thing is double march's on your four DD's. No amount of nit picking will change that. After that the idea of a COR replacing one of those DD's is very tenuous. The COR would need a melee set as the amount of haste being thrown around means their melee would do more then their shooting. On top of that due to the randomness of their rolls you'll never be guaranteed anything from them. They would be forced to play it extremely safe to ensure no time wasting busts happen which further waters down their contribution.

Seriously ... nobody is going to get their ~insert favorite job~ shoe horned into a group with the nerfing of Embrava. We will go back to exactly how we did things prior to Embrava.

Can't remember that far back anymore. It's all a blur =(

If I made it seem like I'm saying replace the brd, that wasn't my intention. I'm in agreement that brd seems like the best job to bring in one slot. Just that "on paper" differs from reality and I'd like to ensure that those who are looking for a brd or brds looking to do nyzul are aware of certain things.

You are over thinking this.
A good bard doesn't wait for songs to come off before he re-sings. 4 minutes in to the run, you should think "oh dang, songs coming off soon." Next floor, you sing victory march. Floor after that, sing Advancing march. Floor after that, sing Victory March again. Repeat until N/T come off cooldown. You basically go without Valor Minuet 5 until N/T are back up, unless you get a gimme floor, like specified enemy that's right next to the portal. Or if you wanna be snazzy, you can try to get VM5 on a couple DD during the floors instead of sitting on portal being lazy. Discretion comes in to play obviously tho b/c you still want to be at portal when floor objective is complete.

You asked whether 3 DD+ COR or 4 DD after nerf, I tried my best to analyze the pros and cons of having 3 DD 1 COR instead of 4 DD and no regain. I did not ever once say COR+ 3 DD is way superior setup compare with 4 DD, as everything is all on paper. I just think it's viable as a DD spot post nerf if it allow you to open, or 1 hit to a WS every time you engage. Since my experience is that many DD often WS right away upon engage in NNI with embrava, I only see killing speed drop quite a lot if you walk around with no regain.

But whether you're convinced or not is up to you. I guess until I try it myself(planning to make a group and try it sometime to see if it works), there are no real way to tell.

But I guess just like BLU(or MNK or another job) is optimal in Nyzul or not debate earlier, this discussion just won't have any solution. Plenty of groups still beat Nyzul with all kind of DD, BLU THF NIN DNC RNG COR etc. You insisted that "ideal setup or gtfo", when in Nyzul it isn't that simple. And I can't just pop a parse data, or spreadsheet data regarding DD job's killing speed in Nyzul, since there are way too many factor affecting it.

I agree, I just think when you say...
you aren't considering that all the tp doesn't come from regain alone

I think that NNI has enough running time that a hell of a lot of TP comes from it, though.

Yes, from embrava and adloquium that's about 2 TP per second. When you're running around, unless your popping sprinter's or powder boots, or using speed hacks, you're going to get hit by mobs you run by.

All I'm saying is that you have to account for this when you say "I almost always engage a mob with 100+ tp as it is"

Otherwise, you will make the same faulty assumption as Afania, who thinks that DD will engage mobs at 20 TP without COR, and 80-100 TP with COR.

You will have more TP than what Afania thinks because
A) You will (or should) still have Adloquium for 1 TP per tick with or without COR
B) You will gain TP from mobs hitting you

I'm done repeating myself.

Uhh... of course you cast before songs wear, that's largely my point here and WHY songs are a pain. The section of my post you quoted was saying that you HAVE to cast non-N/T songs multiple times during the run. This example was the absolute minimum based on timing that you could possible have, if you all stayed still which isn't practical in nyzul.

A good bard also knows that N/T is used to:
1. Extend the duration of a marcato'ed march as long as possible. Sooner you recast, the sooner you negate that bonus, unavoidable since any song up is better than a Marcato'ed march wearing, but it sucks.
2. Being able to get multiple songs up at the rune. Even with capped fastcast, you still may not get 2 songs up when you need to, timing will vary on your group. N/T allows you to get 3, maybe 4 up if you have daurdabla.
3. Reduce the need to recast songs as often.

Additionally, I think anytime you're able to use mazurka, that would help.

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you. lol
I just said you're overthinking it because you don't have to calculate your exact song duration since you should be overwriting songs before they come off. But I understand you were just talking song duration times to emphasize your points.

We take 3 jobs with access to sekkanoki and ws that generally 1 shot nq mobs. Embrava regain just from flooring up and finding a mob generally equals 6 4-6k ws. The advantage of having 20k+dmg on tap from just running to a target is irreplaceable.

This is true, but completely irrelevant to any of the recent discussions.
If you're trying to say that a BRD will not replace embrava, that's true. However nobody is going to argue that. I think it's generally agreed upon that BRD will be the best replacement for the 2nd SCH after the embrava nerf. Some think that COR will also be a viable DD after the embrava nerf, but others disagree.

Post-embrava nerf, this is my opinion on the best setup:
SCH/RDM, BRD/WHM, BLU/WAR, MNK/WAR, SAM/WAR, DRK/WAR

My acceptable substitutes:
DRK/SAM, WAR/SAM, DRG/WAR, DRG/SAM, DNC/WAR

So, what you're saying is, it was relevant to recent discussions!?

If he's trying to make an argument for COR regain being irreplaceable, then it's relevant, but faulty. He didn't really say anything though except that Embrava regain was really good. Which is irrelevant.