Thief In VW

Just to know if any of you got a parse of their THF in VW.

Yesterday i got in an arguement with a WAR that was saying that THF is the WORST job of all for VW.

After i WS a few times and showed him my RS were stronger than his Ukkos, he was saying that THF only good spike damage and ***as dps and everything else.

For info:
(On Lancing Lamorak he was avg 2.7 - 2.8k and i was avg 3.6k)

So what do you think? Is THF really that bad in DPS in VW? Would be greatly appreciated if you got some parse or opinion.


Thank you in advance

I absolutely love thief and hafta say each job has their own advantages for any situation. Altho i dont really think DPS on thf is all that bad. War may have a higher base damage but thf has a lower delay, and if you add in dual wield and triple attack etc, thf has a decent dps in my opinion.

THF is quite ***tier as far as voidwatch jobs go. You will be doing less damage than any heavy DD(who isn't terrible), and it's extremely easy to cap out lights without TH bonus. A 2handed DD will normally have enough TP to ws by the time your WS animation is finished assuming you have a cor. Jobs that rely on normal melee hits for a large portion of their damage fall behind even more in VW.

I've never gone THF to VW, but I don't really see the point, being that any mediocre SAM will outparse some of the best of the best thieves. Not always relevant, but the amount of TP fed by hasted thieves on stuff that matters is pretty exorbitant as well. Total opinion, but I'd rather have a SAM or WAR jump in for 30 seconds and do 10k damage than a THF peck something for 100 and become a liability for everyone.

TH is useless in VW. The Ukko war doing less than RS is because the war sucked/wasn't buffed/wasn't using temps. THF isn't a BAD DD when armed with a twashtar or mandau. However, many other jobs will easily pull ahead in average DPS.

conclusion: only bring thf to VW if you have Twash/Mandau, need to go on a DD job, and have no better options, or if you need collaborator.

It's not really about damage because as its been proven any intelligent & well geared DD will do great damage regardless of the job. It's about utility, and a DNC easily and more quickly / efficiently covers all dagger procs. DNC should be able to survive longer, and having DNC/NIN instead of THF/DNC lets this alliance slot survive longer, thus more damage, etc.

Granted there are some fights where certain jobs can't be optimal on, but those are rare (most recently T6 Flan).

I'd like to know a few things first...

1. What gear the WAR used for WS? Some people still don't know how to gear for ukko's...

2. How big was the gap between the respective WS. If the gap between Rudra vs. Ukko was relatively small in favor of the WAR then you're definitely holding your own. If not and you were blowing this WAR out of the water then I'm really wondering about the answers for #'s 1 & 3.

3. Who was riding stalwart/ champions for the duration of the fight? Some people out there just join VW shouts for a chance at loot and just haven't obtained the KI's for meds beforehand. If you had meds and he didn't that explains the gap some. If you didn't then again you're holding your own and are making a better case for your THF.


My own .02 concurs with Kirana, IF a THF has Mandau OR has access to Rudra's (whether full empy or WoE version) & they have the gear to back it up THEN they're a good addittion to any alliance in the DD slot.

IF the THF in question is NOT rocking either dagger and only has Evisceration or Extenterator THEN maybe not so much...

It's not about THF being bad DPS in Voidwatch, it's about it being sub-optimal.

Voidwatch is primarily about covering procs. When your procs can be covered by a job that can also heal (DNC) and TH has no effective benefit, you have to be a top tier DD to justify retaining your spot.

Unfortunately mathematically we just can't compete with Ukko WARs and V. Smite MNKs. To be fair, no job can -- it's just other jobs are necessary to cover procs whereas SE decided to introduce another job that could do Dagger.

Good players are good, and via parse (LS leader has parsed every run so far rawr.guildwork.com - forums), a good thief should do fine. But that goes back to the point where the jobs selected for VW are there for procing purposes. If I focused on damage I'd be #1 every time but I rather use lowdamage multi-hit weapons, proc stuff, ride out temp items, and go back to procing, so your initial question shouldn't have been about the DPS of a THF in VW, but rather its utility.

To Gren: I've beaten plenty of Ukko's / Smite yielding players using Torcleaver and Rudra's (Deka+2). So while I absolutely agree with what you said, I have to contend about whether just owning either qualifies one for a top tier DD spot.

Someones mad.

Here's my personal best on Qilin:
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/Jayjs20/33efe802.png

Last time I did Ig-Alima, I Mercy'ed it for 2595, without berserk up.

Which kinda falls in line with what people are saying here. If I had to stick to Evis/Exenterator, my damage would be pretty horrible.

Unfortunately, you and I aren't going to be doing as well as a properly geared and skilled WAR. Just how the game is.

And no, a mediocre anything won't outparse the best THF. Can trust me on that.

k

Agree with Ihina.

THF is sub-optimal for Voidwatch, but can "hold it's own" if played well, and can definitely "do better" than other players on heavier melee jobs, but only when the THF is extraordinary and/or the heavier melee job player is exceptionally mediocre.

To be honest, debates about one FFXI job class "against" another class are tired and redundant.

Player skill and experience >> Player's equipment and merits >> Job class >> Luck

I fail to ever see any inter-class comparison that deviates from that pattern.

It's not a wonderful Rudra's set by any means, but it's not horrible.
I'm a main DNC (sorry, intruding the THF thread), but I also have the same problem in VW. Main DNC is pretty much pointless in VW. But, I have been able to be up to par/above Fudo/Shoha SAMs and Ukon wars. Of course I'd be stacking JA's, though.
But with that set I can do decent Eviscerations, not to mention I don't really feed it TP due to all the Subtle Blow.
But I'm thinking that THFs could closely relate to the dilemma that DNCs are having.

just a side question here, but is anyone else hoping the war nerf shuts up ukko fanatics?

Thank you everyone for your answers!! It's greatly appreciated.
Idk maybe the WAR was in -DT, i didn't look for that.

Do jobs matter for VW? ._.

I agree that an Empyrean won't totally compensate for being bad. And unfortunately SE has neutered the game to the point that lots of bad people can experience relatively high amounts of success and attain legendaries. So there are a lot of bad Ukons out there.

But Ukko's Fury is like a gattling gun whereas Mercy Stroke is like a sniper's rifle. The rifle is always extremely dangerous in the hands of skilled sniper, but the pure destructive power of a gattling gun need only to be channeled, no matter how inefficiently, to be somewhat effective. A bad Ukon is like a toddler with the gattling gun. He will still do damage, no matter how much potential he wastes, due to the compensatory nature of the weapon he wields.

And if we are talking equal players with relatively equal level of equipment, it's not a question anymore. I'm a main THF and I own both a Mandau and an Ukon. But if I'm required to do DMG and other factors are not an issue, I definitely prefer WAR.

That's not to say my THF does badly, but there's just no utility in my going THF when we already have dagger procs covered.

^ Best comparison ever!

I really wonder about DNC. The thing holding me back the most is that I have to spam evis while waiting for SA/TA timers. With one timer at 50 seconds and the other at 60 seconds, more than half of my WSs is just spamming Evis. I really have no doubt that a THF can easily be on par with any job if only all of our WSs can be stacked with SA/TA. I'd hate to think how much Evis a DNC would have to spam given that Climatic Flourish is on a 1:30 timer.

Yeah I've been saying for years now that the timers on SA/TA need to be adjusted for THF mains. The general delay cycle between attacks has shifted dramatically since the game was first designed due to new buffs and increased Haste gear. Even going from 75 cap to 99 cap, we've seen the average TP set for really good players go from 20% to everyone having 25%.

See, the problem is, if you ask for that, SE won't lower their timers, they will just nerf you to swing slower in the name of balance.

LMAO!!

That's fine as long as they reset 2Hers to swinging at the speed of glaciers while we swing like molasses.

Speed 3

QUICK GET OUT OF THE WAY THIS GLACIER IS TRAVELING AT .1 INCH EVERY YEAR!

Coming from a career thf with mandau, I can attest that thf has pretty much no place towards end game HNM mobs period.

We are by far the worse DD of the pack. Any 2 handed job can outdo any thf in dmg and dps on high lvl HNMs (factor in the skill lvl and gear of course). I pretty much just sneak attack and trick attack and sit back 90% of the time because I'm completely useless on the front line. The fact I feed the mob too much tp and my hits not making up for that fact makes thf useless.

SE just gears us towards being nothing more than hit the damn mob for TH and sit back and watch all the top tier jobs rape any HNM. That's thf in a nut shell in end game.

And the occasional collaborator on the whm or mage in general to save them because losing a thf in an 18 man alliance is no big repercussion where as losing a blm or rdm or smn or a job that makes a damn difference does.

And sadly, dnc = thf but better overall. All dnc needs is flee and TH and thf is pretty much out of a job.

As far as dmg overall goes, thf has to be extremely top notch in terms of gear and merits to make our dmg acceptable for end game. The fact you need a relic or empyreal calibur of weapons to be considered for dding on end game mobs is pretty damn demanding.

Coming from a career THF with a mandau and a twashtar, throwing out 4-5k damage/minute consistently is still a valuable asset.

I can't remember the last time a DRG or a DRK outparsed me.

And it puzzles me why people are talking about TP feed in fights where you have 4-6 DDs pounding away at it at a time. Mobs get 100% TP in a matter of seconds in these fights.

Also, either I need to relook Rudra or I'm calling BS on your 3.6k average Rudra on Lancing Lamorak. I just fought it a few times and the highest Mercy I could get was 3k with rcb/berserk/all temps up and I think I got a DA proc.

edit: ...someone needs to explain to me why DNC matters outside of abyssea, outside of a few procs. Their 1 Rudra/1minute30seconds brings them down to the level of nins and bsts.

He doesn't know what the word averaging means. He used sneak attack, trick attack, and assassin's charge for the high of 3.2k not 3.6k.