Another Crossroad

*If you don't like stories, skip to the bottom*

Our lowman set is coming close to being done with abyssea. We already do voidwatch, but stone and droprate make that an event that I don't care to do all day every day. With the announcement that SE planned to increase alexandrite drops and expand nyzul (with alex drops as well) my roomate came up with a plan. His suggestion is to transition our abyssea set into a relic/mythic set. All of us have run the salvage/nyzul gauntlet several bajillion times and know what to expect.

I am normally pretty practical. In this case I realise that, even though I would kill a penguin for a Ryunohige, it won't be practical to get something accomplished in a decade. Not only do we already ahve to get everyone captain rank. We have to do it again for each member who wants mythic. Then we have to split the (currently) sparse alex supply between whomever is making a mythic.

I always had a love affair with Ragnarok. I made Caladbolg to try and satisfy the urge I've had for Ragnarok since NA release. I was so pleased with Caladbolg that Dark Knight eclipsed my other job usage 10 fold (aided by the fact that I could get so many staggers on drk). I now and considered by most drk main, despite my love affair with drg that spanned almost 10 years.

Conversely, Apocalypse has not only been one of the most fear inducing relics, it also carries a certain amount of fun and versatility. The self-heal quality coupled with the a-little-less-broken-than-it-used-to-be aftermath gives me the impression that regardless of the future, I am never going to regret making Apoc (even for novelty purposes if Relics fall below the items on the horizon).

The thing that makes me most skittish is my luck. I have a long history of obtaining powerful items the moment before they become obsolete. I worry that if i choose Ragnarok the next update will see Apoc get a "pass the hard cap" buff similar to aegis (hell with my luck they'd make it independant magic based haste too). Then again if I pick Apoc, they'll make the next GS weaponskill crit based and Rag will be truly rediculous.

*TL;DR*: Apocalypse or Ragnarok: Factual, Mathmatical, Novelty, or Sentimental.

If you think I'm an idiot, or this thread is pointless, please at least humor me. The forum is my "relief" from work between quotes and I'd enjoy it if this thread at least had some nice discussion for me to consider.

Having played with both, my vote is Apoc. Ragnarok is the best great sword but is really over rated for what it is.
Also, the all gold apoc looks better than the giant horse slicer with green.

I can't seem to find much information about the new Crit Rate effect. I'm imagining Ragnarok, with aftermath, to be like Razed Ruins rate outside... but I'm sure that's not the case. What is it really like?

This.

25% with aftermath.
Theres gotta be someone out there with better numbers. I dont trust my own parses or fishing rates since they always go screwy.

25% TOTAL with merits, dex etc? Or do you mean 25% with aftermath alone? Does anyone know what the inherent rate on the GS is before aftermath?

Both are great, Ragnarok aparantly pulls ahead over time, but if you'r picking one, apocalypse should be your first choice.
I nearly went the ragnarok route, but after thinking it through, apoc is the clear choice, with it's amazing utility.
Ragnarok simply helps your dmg, while apoc does the same + helps keep you alive.

I'm a *** for Ragnarok too, but yeah, I'll do the one with more utility first.

11% critrate directly from the weapon, ~8% from Scourge. It barely pulls ahead of Apoc in a best-case scenario (high level/def, never have to play defensively), and even then with how easy it is to cap cRatio in Voidwatch + the critrate bonus of Champion's Tonic I'd call that into question. I strongly recommend Apoc.

if only SE could let us tri wield like an evil weapon...

Can you explain that a little better for me? I'm not good at math but at least I'll admit it and ask for understanding :x

Ratio is your attack/mob's def and caps at 2.25 for two-hand weapons. With gear, food, Last Resort, and Stalwart's Tonic, you can easily push 12-1300 attack in TP gear. With Dia III, that will put you high enough that you're likely at or near cap even on 3 Voidwatch NMs.

cRatio introduces level correction, -0.05 for every level the mob is over you. So technically it would have been more accurate for me to just reference Ratio. cRatio is still relevant though because crits add a static value to the equations, hence crits being more valuable on high level mobs. They're just not as valuable as they would be if you had lower attack. Obviously LR isn't up all the time, but it is most of the time and constitutes the much greater phase in your output with DB.

So then what is pdiff? Maybe i was just having a terminology problem.

pDIF is the set of equations that use cRatio as an input and account for critical hits by adding the aforementioned static value.

pdif is the one I'm used to seeing. I'm not sure but I feel like Ragnarok would be like taking a step further from Quietus --> Caladbolg in terms of dispersing the damage over time.

It seems like Apoc is going to do more for me in application to different situations. I still like the idea of being able to pull out Rag on warrior though.

Or get both and be cool like me..LOL @ saying Rag is overrated more like underrated noob..Fun Scourging at 300% then switching to Apoc..but Rag owns and Apoc does too. Get Both.


/thread

{I don't understand} {Help me out!}

I thought they made aftermath wear off when you switched weapon?
I just remember people saying they could cata for aftermath then swap to kclub for zergs, but it got nerfed?

AM doesn't carry over any more, they changed that way back in 07. When people used to 300tp Cata then switch to Kclub.

Champion's Tonic is the shortest lasting buff of all the temp items. Referencing that as a viable factor in decision making, or gear choices, is nothing short of silly.

Oh well just get both then lol.

Apoc should always be a DRKs first choice for a Relic, the utility is too much to give up.

Alriiight. I was leaning toward apoc anyhow. I guess we'll see. It'll still be 90~120 days of dynamis before I have the currency sooo if they add a super crit spinning slash before then, I can always change my mind.

Good Advice for the traveler:
When at a crossroad and you don't know where to go, always take the left fork.

The left fork is Apoc.

Take Apoc.

Factors that are not active fulltime are nonetheless factors to be considered. My premise is this: regardless of the situation, Ragnarok will not be better than Apoc in any situation where either must play defensively because of Apoc's superior utility and gear flexibility. As such, it is of greatest benefit to Ragnarok to examine situations where it does not have to play defensively. For Voidwatch, this necessitates meleeing almost exclusively while Fanatic's is active. If you've recently obtained a Fanatic's, there's a good chance that you've also obtained a Champion's Tonic via a timed or HQ proc and as such you may be able to pop Champion's immediately prior to Fanatic's and enjoy most of the benefits of both. As such, it will be active more often in uptime than the low duration may suggest. If you're of the mind that it's not worth using at all on DRK due to the duration and the potential loss of a different temp item on a NQ stagger, that is a different matter and one I have not fully evaluated yet.

When discussing caps I generally refer to Ratio/cRatio for correctness' sake. The exception would be a situation involving no level correction as pDIF has its own cap that is sufficiently low enough to further devalue crits at very high cRatio values. If discussing general ranges, I'll use pDIF.

There's a lot of truth in this. Scourge isn't an especially strong weaponskill, whereas what equates to 20% ODD and another ~20% critrate during TP phase only packs a lot of punch. Apoc is also a DoT weapon, but not in such a brutal, in-your-face damage spikes way.

i have just made a 95 apoc recently and i can tell you if your a drk main there is no equal do to the ability to duo or trio almost everything with a brd +whm and Cata is consistant where almost all other WS have a wide disparity in damage Cata is 2000 or better at all times. i have seen other espescially empy WS have a wide gap in floor to ceiling damage

Rags Relic proc is actually 2.5x Damage not ODD :x

Do any of the people that commented here even have a Rag? I only have 75 version and i'm loving it A LOT. The crit rate is noticeable even @75 w/ Scourge AM. I still don't have: The 25% Scourge dmg boost, "Increases rates of crit IV", and the 15%~ 2.5x DMG

Edit: This is outside abyssea.