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Message From the Admins
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:33:50
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.
Why is this any different?
The post has nothing to do with his (Flion's) moderation. Only something that somehow was conceived and irrelevant to everything. It's harassing a poster who was banned publicly with no way of defending himself. The thread never needed to be made. It could have been any mod, any poster, anything and it still should not be there.
Krizz, nor any mod or any human, is infallible. We're questioning the judgment that is being made by letting the thread stay posted.
[+]
By Nevill 2011-11-03 18:34:53
I don't care either way. However, the majority of users who would even give a damn have seen the thread, so why not delete it and end the argument?
Cerberus.Tikal
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-03 18:35:00
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however. Because Mods =! Users. They adhere to a different set of rules. End of story.
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:35:06
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Figured you would, posted anyway. Regardless, Man you are blowing this way out of proportion Proth. It doesn't even concern you or anyone else. Correct, so why in the name of *** was it posted to begin with? Banning Flion and Sevourn was moderation. That is not being contested. The ensuing thread was unnecessary.
Now now watch that language /wags finger.
I can see your point but given the harassment and the user in question, it was appropriate action, IMO. You just need to look at his volatile history and the lengths he went to making sure he won an internet argument to know he will try and do something pathetic. I very much doubt the same action would be taken on a threat like that from 99% of the user base. He is a victim of his own doing.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:35:13
Krizz, thanks for the contribution, but as we're trying to clear the air between a few cliques of users it might be best if I take point on the thread.
Guys, this thread isn't an invitation to bring up past inconsistencies. You don't need to convince me that they've happened. I thought my initial post was pretty clear in that regard.
I need everyone to take a step back, and breathe. If you can't do that, and feel the need to simply air out details of your personal disagreements with other folks just because there's now an audience, then I need you to take it elsewhere.
[+]
Carbuncle.Lolserj
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2851
By Carbuncle.Lolserj 2011-11-03 18:35:29
guess i'll post my opinion on the matter
Everyone just needs to shut the *** up.
Flion and Sev are my friends, but even I feel like in the end they deserved being banned. So if anyone is feeling the need to get revenge for this they need to stop and think about what they're doing. There are these things called moderators and admins and then there are these things called users. Users can't do anything to rebel against the moderators or admins or they get banned. End of story. Flion and Sev did this... many times, and you see how that worked out for them.
And to the people blindly +1ing the moderators and admins, agreeing to everything they say, and even kissing the *** of the moderators and admins please stop. It's *** stupid. No one cares if you like what the admins have to say. ***, no one cares about what I am posting right now and I'm probably going to get some "Lol he's *** stupid" and maybe some "look at all the *** i give" but to be honest I'm just doing what you guys are doing, I'm being a douchebag.
So please everyone stop being such *** about this whether you're one of the people agreeing with the admins or whether you disagree with the admins. What has happened, has already happened. Get the *** over it.
By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:36:47
Cerberus.Savannah said: »Maybe they missed something? Maybe they didn't get a chance to read all of it at once? Maybe some people just don't care but clicked on it since it was from a mod?
You don't know, we don't know. Point is, Krizz took a precaution to nip a problem before it started to look negatively on him.
It's done, it's over. Quit your whining and move on with your lives. Flion is not your god....he's probably not your daddy....so their really isn't anything to be talking about anymore. Want to say it, but don't.. Want to say it, but don't.
*** it, of course you would instantly jump to Krizz's defense. No one is saying Flion is our God, I don't even know why you felt the need to throw in the daddy part, but THERE is something to talk about, because the second anyone posted a thread about a PM they got (and he saw it), Krizz would shut it down, the second someone posted about a PM they got in an already existing thread, Krizz would shut it down, the second they made a thread about some BS drama with another user, Krizz would shut it down.
Yet because he's a mod he's just allowed to do that. So you want a thread that is doomed to die in thread hell to be deleted just to appease your "IT'S NOT FAIR" complaints?
refer to this: Let us say for the case of the argument he got rid of it?
Would it really matter?
No.
Since people can't post on it other topics will take precedence and we'll forget about it.
Happens all the time.
So it's either we forget about it because it's been removed or we forget about it because it doesn't matter anymore...hmm.
Valefor.Prothescar said: »So suppose someone sent me a threatening PM saying they were going to expose my deepest, darkest secrets. And on top of that let's just say they add in lots and lots of other unpleasantness. Say I make a thread about this to protect myself from future backlash from the community.
I do not have a green bar. Will my post be deleted. Can you ban users?
Can you make posts explaining your bans of users?
The answer is no for both.
So you wouldn't really have as much of a point to make that post and would have made it strictly for dramas sake adding to that you can't lock posts either so it would become a possible posting frenzy.
So I mean..it's not really the same thing. Not sure how you gather that from what I said, but to avoid the ridiculous argument, yes, yes I do.
What I really want is people in authoritative positions to set examples rather than use the "Do what I say, not what I do" approach. If it's unacceptable for a regular user to do it, then it should be unacceptable for a mod to do it as well.
I couldn't make a preemptive thread (I probably couldn't even make a post-fallout one) and post PMs someone sent to me to "save my character from damage" or whatever you want to call it, so why is it acceptable for a mod to?
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:37:24
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however. Because Mods =! Users. They adhere to a different set of rules. End of story.
This is not how the world works. Jaerik asked pleasantly so I'm going to stop, pointless anyway. Zealots will be zealots, blind until the end.
[+]
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:37:42
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly. Because it's what users have requested.
We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.
This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:39:49
Not sure how you gather that from what I said, but to avoid the ridiculous argument, yes, yes I do.
What I really want is people in authoritative positions to set examples rather than use the "Do what I say, not what I do" approach. If it's unacceptable for a regular user to do it, then it should be unacceptable for a mod to do it as well.
I couldn't make a preemptive thread (I probably couldn't even make a post-fallout one) and post PMs someone sent to me to "save my character from damage" or whatever you want to call it, so why is it acceptable for a mod to?
Because it's not the same thing as posting a thread and locking it right away, you can't do that last time I checked. :D
Quote: Can you ban users?
Can you make posts explaining your bans of users?
The answer is no for both.
So you wouldn't really have as much of a point to make that post and would have made it strictly for dramas sake adding to that you can't lock posts either so it would become a possible posting frenzy.
Past that...I'm not sure if I meant to respond to your post directly looking back now. I do apologize. :3
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:39:49
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly. Because it's what users have requested.
We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.
This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.
Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done.
Bahamut.Serj
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6179
By Bahamut.Serj 2011-11-03 18:39:54
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly. Because it's what users have requested.
We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.
This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.
The whole point was the thread had nothing to do with why he got banned.
I'm done now. Agreeing with Proth.
[+]
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11681
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-11-03 18:40:15
Cerberus.Savannah said: »If you don't like the rules...don't post.
If you don't like the moderation...don't do something stupid that's going to get you in trouble. Send a PM to a mod/admin and they'll review whatever the issue is.
If you don't like another player...block them.
Ta~da. Everyone's happy. I don't know how that got you to "everyone's happy". The system should be designed to support a healthy environment, not create an evidently widespread feeling that people need to walk on eggshells to avoid moderation. That benefits certain posting attitudes/archetypes, but is overall detrimental to the community. The value of the "blacklist" function is dependent on your reasons for posting in the first place. I've tried it on various forums and frequently found it useless between quoted posts and occasionally wanting to read a post for one reason or another. However, I almost exclusively use forums as a means of exchanging information; social posters can block with minimal loss.
I'm tl;dring everything past Jaerik's second post on the first page, so forgive me if I've missed anything of importance. I'm not a fan of topicbans as an early choice of moderation in "grey" cases. In situations where there is a clear intent to disrupt I understand its use, but less inflammatory negative voices should perhaps see a greater focus on discouraging first and silencing second. If there's a consistent pattern of behind-the-scenes action then obviously feel free to disregard this, but I feel like the ease with which topicbans can end problems within a thread and perhaps bring a problematic user in check for a time has gotten a little too attractive. It's understandable given the circumstances of moderation, but not something I particularly like to see regardless of my opinion of the poster in question provided there may be something to gain from them not being topicbanned.
This is not particularly relevant to the gigantic threads mentioned previously, which isn't surprising since I'm not really active in them, but I wanted to mention it.
EDIT: Woah, two pages since I started drafting this post. Lot of heat in here I guess. I will say that I don't like the nature of the topic that appears to be the current point of contention, but I also understand the intent given Flion's M.O. It would likely have come up regardless.
EDIT2: I also realize that some users will not be pleased and there's nothing to be done about it. Can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time, and the displeased users are fairly vocal ones right now. I do think there are improvements to be made, however.
Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard 2011-11-03 18:40:24
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.
Really? Yes. That's exactly it. You do not get to post threads like that. It's simple. Nobody cares about you, or your drama. You have no power, and the things you say and do have no consequence.
A moderator, has power and responsibility. When someone attacks a moderator, he should have every right to defend those actions where people can see. Because he has power, and it's important for the people that respect such power to understand the reasons behind certain actions.
Would you want to hear about how some moderator "abused" his power and never bothered to explain? No. They're public figures on a website and people need to trust that the decisions they make in regards to punishments are correct.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15065
By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-11-03 18:40:38
Aww, I didn't earn a ban :(
[+]
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 16303
By Ramuh.Sagittario 2011-11-03 18:41:35
Tell me, those of you who are up in arms over this... if you are so against what has taken place regarding Flion, why was there an overwhelming support (including many of the names here) for the mods/admins when they used the exact same procedure against Vigor...?
Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 176
By Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard 2011-11-03 18:41:43
I think the website needs more rules. and more moderation.
By slipispsycho 2011-11-03 18:41:43
Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly. Because it's what users have requested.
We used to never post any public information whatsoever about why a user had been banned. None. Absolute, total privacy. Especially once they were already gone, because they had no way to defend or explain themselves. Similar to how managers in professional organizations are often legally barred from discussing why they fired an employee to other employees.
This was the site policy for over 4 years. Users hated it. They wanted the rule to remain in effect for other users, so that you could not engage in officially sanctioned character assassination of another user, but they wanted mods to be able to publicly pinpoint exact reasons for banning someone -- with documentation -- once the user was gone.
The whole point was the thread had nothing to do with why he got banned.
I'm done now. Agreeing with Proth. I'd like to sign my name under this as well.. You stay silent, nothing changes, even if this changes nothing, at least I've ~tried~ to get through. Done also.
[+]
Cerberus.Tikal
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4945
By Cerberus.Tikal 2011-11-03 18:41:52
Valefor.Prothescar said: »This is not how the world works. Jaerik asked pleasantly so I'm going to stop, pointless anyway. Zealots will be zealots, blind until the end. Last time I checked, we couldn't see the mod forum, temp ban, or give warnings to other users. Different rules.
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:42:05
Quetzalcoatl.Ultrarichard said: »Valefor.Prothescar said: »I'm not even defending Flion or the tarnishing of names, I'm trying to understand why when we, the normal posters, post a thread similar to the one in question, it gets shut down, but it's perfectly fine for a moderator. The "BUT HE NEEDS TO KEEP HIS PUBLIC REPUTATION UP!!!1!!!111" argument doesn't fly.
Also the deletion of the post was expected, hopefully some people saw it first however.
Really? Yes. That's exactly it. You do not get to post threads like that. It's simple. Nobody cares about you, or your drama. You have no power, and the things you say and do have no consequence.
A moderator, has power and responsibility. When someone attacks a moderator, he should have every right to defend those actions where people can see. Because he has power, and it's important for the people that respect such power to understand the reasons behind certain actions.
Would you want to hear about how some moderator "abused" his power and never bothered to explain? No. They're public figures on a website and people need to trust that the decisions they make in regards to punishments are correct.
This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules?
Leviathan.Bimbam
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 159
By Leviathan.Bimbam 2011-11-03 18:43:13
Maybe all the people with beef could do something akin to the "Occupy Wall Street" nonsense by, idk... Occupying 4chan and ****ing off instead?
[+]
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:43:14
Valefor.Prothescar said: »This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules? There's too many atheists about to be claiming God, Nancy.
;)
it's Jaerik-given virtue if anything.
Fenrir.Didgist
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 291
By Fenrir.Didgist 2011-11-03 18:44:05
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »As I'm to understand, every time that someone is banned there is a post explaining why so the rest of the community does not do the same thing.
Why is this any different?
The post has nothing to do with his (Flion's) moderation. Only something that somehow was conceived and irrelevant to everything. It's harassing a poster who was banned publicly with no way of defending himself. The thread never needed to be made. It could have been any mod, any poster, anything and it still should not be there.
Krizz, nor any mod or any human, is infallible. We're questioning the judgment that is being made by letting the thread stay posted.
This is where your boy says umad and derails 20 threads because you didn't agree with him on a topic he has no first rate experience with. The most insulting part is he is not even well developed player.
It was a good run, 23000 or whatever posts, I could see him and his entire clique spending more time trolling these threads than playing the game. This is more than evident in all of the gear they don't have.
This guy was so insulted by my insults that he went to the length of posting my name, age, and any other information he could get about me. You can't troll a troll now? Confused.
[+]
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:44:12
It was sarcasm, deal with it. In any case felt compelled to respond to that post. Made my brain start to bleed.
Lakshmi.Jaerik
Administrator
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3834
By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2011-11-03 18:44:19
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done. No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.
Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.
Carbuncle.Tweeek
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 732
By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-11-03 18:44:25
How is sending a PM to a user the same as sending a PM to a mod? Are you guys this naive? You're borderline HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you threaten a mod/admin and expect no recourse, why are you guys so worried about it?
Not saying I look at mods the same as penal officers but as an example action you take towards a citizen is not treated the same as a penal officer. No, it's not the same but there's an obvious hierarchy in place here contrary to what you people want to believe. No this isn't a community ruled by dictators where you have no rights but stop acting like stupid actions won't be combated differently when taken out on mods/admins vs users.
Not to mention all the discussion asking for that specific mod along with others to show more transparency in their actions. You think just because I don't oppose the post I love Krizz? Nah, I've had run ins with him he pissed me off several times and had to go cry about it to an admin because I was feeling butt hurt. The fact is you are all getting worked up over nothing.
Ramuh.Vinvv
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15542
By Ramuh.Vinvv 2011-11-03 18:45:44
It was a good run, 23000 or whatever posts, I could see him and his entire clique spending more time trolling these threads than playing the game. This is more than evident in all of the gear they don't have.
/sigh
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 19647
By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-11-03 18:46:39
Valefor.Prothescar said: »Doesn't seem so much to be the reason he was banned tbh, but whatever. It's done. No, I think it's important to explain ourselves here. "Because we said so" isn't a good enough reason to ban someone and I don't expect you guys to accept it as such.
Flion was banned because he had a long history of ignoring polite requests to abstain from certain behavior, ignored warnings, ignored topic bans, was temp banned, perma banned, reinstated, and generally sucked up so much moderator and admin time trying to clean up his mess (an example of which was Krizz's post) that it wasn't worth keeping him around anymore.
Ok well thank you for that, and again I really don't care about the banning itself so much as how it was presented in that thread. It seems wholly unfair and is not easy to justify any part of the thread besides the reason that he was banned.
How is sending a PM to a user the same as sending a PM to a mod? Are you guys this naive? You're borderline HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE if you threaten a mod/admin and expect no recourse, why are you guys so worried about it?
Not saying I look at mods the same as penal officers but as an example action you take towards a citizen is not treated the same as a penal officer. No, it's not the same but there's an obvious hierarchy in place here contrary to what you people want to believe. No this isn't a community ruled by dictators where you have no rights but stop acting like stupid actions won't be combated differently when taken out on mods/admins vs users.
Not to mention all the discussion asking for that specific mod along with others to show more transparency in their actions. You think just because I don't oppose the post I love Krizz? Nah, I've had run ins with him he pissed me off several times and had to go cry about it to an admin because I was feeling butt hurt. The fact is you are all getting worked up over nothing.
Why does it have to be made public? If it was the sole reason that he was banned, fine. It does not seem like that is the case. There was moderation to be done. It was done. The rest was excess.
Asura.Fondue
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2446
By Asura.Fondue 2011-11-03 18:48:23
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Nobody is harassing Flionheart post-mortem bro, your friend threatened to blackmail a moderator of this website and clearly none of you have any problem reposting everything he says so it would have come out one way or another
dont be stupid man, every one of your last posts is taking this whole situation way out of hand over a completely justified removal of people from this website
such a dramaqueen lol
Asura.Hit
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 765
By Asura.Hit 2011-11-03 18:48:28
Valefor.Prothescar said: »This is the most ridiculously stupid argument I've ever heard in my life. What good is a moderator if all of the users leave because the moderators are misusing their god-given virtue of being above the rules? There's too many atheists about to be claiming God, Nancy.
;)
it's Jaerik-given virtue if anything.
This is a sensationalist statement in the fact that not all the users will leave, probably just the stupid ones.
We've had to do some painfully subjective bans over the past few days. I say painful because they are bans that were made due to cumulative, subjective issues with certain users over months and years, and not single infractions that broke the camel's back. (So to speak.)
These are always extremely difficult calls to make, and by our internal policies can only be made by an admin -- not a mod -- because they're a subjective judgement call made for the health of the site and not due to violations of any particular forum rule.
These events are extremely rare. In the entire site's ~5 year history, I can count the number of these bans we have made on one hand. This is because making bans for subjective reasons that aren't backed up by specific rule infractions harm the users' overall perception of our integrity and consistency. If we can nuke some guy for no specific reason, what's to say that you aren't next?
---------------------
Our moderation is short-staffed. It has been for awhile. This is mostly due to the fact that everyone I have approached about the job who I feel is qualified (I can share my requirements later if you're interested, but that's another post) has turned me down.
Honestly, this is expected: the people who are sane enough to understand the nature of the position and the thankless level of responsibility are typically too sane to accept the offer.
Being a moderator is thankless, strenuous, and altogether pretty awful. The fact you only appear out of the woodwork when something has gone wrong, plus general human mental quirks around confirmation bias, means that the more you do your job, the more you will inevitably become associated with being the bad guy. You must constantly fight this perception, and it requires skill, diplomacy, training, and a certain level of self-critical diligence and effort that is often unreasonable to expect from volunteers.
I have gotten a lot of feedback about heavy-handedness among some of our moderation staff, and you'll just have to trust that I have taken it to heart. But I believe all of our moderators are doing the best job they can within the limitations of the rules we have imposed upon them. We need to work on consistency and avoiding the perception of favoritism. When favoritism appears to occur, users can't always be expected to give us the benefit of the doubt and understand there is almost always non-public, extenuating circumstances that have caused it.
I ask that you believe me when I say that we're working on it.
-------------------
That being said:
Users need to understand that our mods are limited in their powers. They cannot perform perma-bans, nor temp-bans without providing lengthy documentation and evidence. Even then, there are typically threads about the user in the Moderator forum that involve every mod, and every admin, and frequently run to many pages before a decision is made. Just about the only decision a moderator is allowed to make in a vacuum is a topic ban, and even then, I'm pushing towards using them less and less as a disciplinary tool in general.
Why do I tell you this? Because I get a lot of complaints about a single moderator, attributing blatant, dictatorial, vengeance-driven behavior and permanent, ruthless disciplinary action that they simply do not have the power to take even if they wanted to. This tends to make me skeptical and dismissive of the overall claims even if there are nuggets of truth buried in there, because I start to distrust the reliability and intentions of the messenger.
We site admins have a famously low tolerance for drama. We have no interest whatsoever in investigating who said what to who, who exaggerated what about what situation, who has an agenda against which user clique, who's spreading rumors about what relationship, or any of that.
We run a FFXI and FFXIV gaming site, of which the forums are one small component of the overall operation. There isn't enough you could pay any of us to keep track of all that drama, and if you try and play games with the moderators or admins based on any of it, the admins are quite likely to just advise nuking every affected party so we don't have to waste our available free time and precious sanity tracking down who's saying what about who. That's time and effort we could be spending on making the site more useful for everyone else.
This isn't me being mean, or lazy, or dismissive. This is practical reality. We aren't on these forums all day like you guys. We simply can't keep up. There aren't enough hours in the day.
And that's just the admins! Moderators are all volunteer, so they have even less of a reason to do so. Frankly, I'm amazed they haven't all told us to go to hell by now.
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This means that if we end up getting a group of users who are consistently the source of reams upon reams of stacked-up drama every time we visit the site... users who consistently tiptoe right up to the edge of the rules and then fill our Inboxes with reports, complaints, bizarre-ass interpersonal drama about relationships and stalking and disagreements and sniping, etc, eventually an admin (like me) is just going to make the call to nuke them just to keep us all sane. It simply isn't worth it.
There is a cut-off of diminishing returns such that your contributions to the forum are not worth the sheer effort it takes to keep you around. It's nothing personal. No harm, no foul. There's the door.
I've recently made this call about two elder users. Banning Sevourn and Flionheart was my call -- not our moderators' -- so you can stop sending me PM's alleging forty different drama-filled conspiratorial interpersonal narratives about how or why a certain moderator would have done so. You just make yourself look like part of the problem.
Like I said, the number of bans we've made like this in the half-decade the site has been around can be counted on one hand. In both cases, the record of warnings, topic bans, temp bans, perma-bans-and-pardons, etc number several pages of text in the user's account notes.
So please do not freak out that suddenly the red-barred ban hammer is going to come down on your head with zero warning. We don't operate that way. And we're not going to start flipping out and banning people out of sheer frustration alone.
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But you need to realize that the smooth operation of this site is a partnership. I need my mods to be consistent, polite, diplomatic, and patient. If they aren't doing that, I still need to know. Please continue to report your concerns. Your feedback is always taken to heart, even if it's just tucked away into a corner of the admins' heads for future consideration and does not result in immediately action until I get enough consistent complaints to make a case.
But I need my users to avoid twisting themselves into impossibly complex, nasty Gordion Knot relationships, while engaging in moderator-backed efforts to destroy one another's reputation and credibility, and then running to an admin when it blows up in your face. It's important that we all establish realistic expectations of what we can expect from you, and what you can expect from us.
Everyone needs to take a few steps away, and breathe.
Thanks.
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