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Naruto Manga thread [spoilers]
 Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 10:27:02
crazy idea (and maybe stupid).
can tobi be http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobirama_Senju?
tobi=tobirama?
then again i read naruto not with much atention and the only link io have for this theory is the similarity of the name.
That's the 2nd Hokage, who was summoned with Edo Tensei and locked away within the Death God. So no.
Tobi is not Madara, as Madara himself has already stated that he dead. It is presumed that Kabuto's 6th coffin was Madara's coffin thus there shouldnt be a reason for Tobi to worry about that unless ofcourse he is not Madara.
Also Madara has the rinnegan, so there wouldnt be a reason for him to want to retrieve Nagato's eyes unless he didnt have the Rinnegan(which we know Madara has) However I have also thought of something as to how Nagato came to have it, as Tobi said he gave it to Nagato, perhaps that explains why Tobi is blind by one eye(an effect of passing that down or transfer??)because Sharingan -> Rinnegan seems to be the evolution, and Nagato doesnt follow that path, it would explain how he came to have that.
Tobi had that mask covering his eye since the 4ths era, Nagato ran into Pervy Sage before the 4th iirc. So that transfer would check off right with the timeline. This also means Madara was somewhere in the shadows still alive during this time(since knows of Nagato)probably in a weakend state after the fight with the 1st(after all these years).
*edit -note- I dont rule out the possibility that Tobi could be some essense of Madara, but him physically being Madara, no. See, if he's blind in one eye, could it possibly be Obito? Who only has one eye left? As for transferring the Rinnegan to Nagato, how would that happen? Tobi has had to transplant everything till now. (Re: Itachi's eyes to Sasuke) Nagato would probably remember that, wouldn't he? He said he awakened them during a fight to save Yahiko, not to mention the transplant with Sasuke left him partially blind for a while. (He had to have his eyes covered with that cloth for a bit.)
This just isn't possible. That bodly was beyond crushed/destroyed. I even think Yondaime told this to Kakashi, and I believe that it was probably disposed of by the Konoha Black Ops to prevent the Sharingan being recovered by a rival village. And didn't Nagato actually activate them when he killed the Konoha Ninja that killed his parents? I think so. Kinda like how Sasuke forgot he activated his eyes to fight off Itachi after he killed the clan. People forget ***. But he diffidently had a connection to Tobi as he was the leader of Akatsuki.
Quote: According to Tobi, Nagato is a descendant of the Uzumaki clan.[4] During the Second Shinobi World War, Nagato lived with his parents in a village near Amegakure. One day two Konoha shinobi broke into their home looking for food, unaware that the place was still inhabited. Nagato's parents, believing they were going to be killed, attacked the two so that Nagato could escape. Having mistaken them to be enemy ninja, the Konoha ninja killed his parents. In his grief, Nagato awakened his Rinnegan for the first time and killed the assailants. He would come to consider this incident the first great pain of his life.[5] I might not perfectly recall the fight against Konan, but from what I remember that fight showed us that, despite wearing a mask witn an opening on only one eye, he actually had both.
This is true.
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-10-20 10:30:30
See, if he's blind in one eye, could it possibly be Obito? Who only has one eye left? As for transferring the Rinnegan to Nagato, how would that happen? Tobi has had to transplant everything till now. (Re: Itachi's eyes to Sasuke) Nagato would probably remember that, wouldn't he? He said he awakened them during a fight to save Yahiko, not to mention the transplant with Sasuke left him partially blind for a while. (He had to have his eyes covered with that cloth for a bit.) Cant be Obito as Obito gave his eye away, Tobi isnt missing his eye, hes just covering it(check chapter 510,page vs Konan, both eyes are revealed).
Nagato awakens his rinnegan before he met Yahiko(check chapter 444, page 17)when he was attacked by ninjas who killed his parents/guardians.
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 10:35:51
See, if he's blind in one eye, could it possibly be Obito? Who only has one eye left? As for transferring the Rinnegan to Nagato, how would that happen? Tobi has had to transplant everything till now. (Re: Itachi's eyes to Sasuke) Nagato would probably remember that, wouldn't he? He said he awakened them during a fight to save Yahiko, not to mention the transplant with Sasuke left him partially blind for a while. (He had to have his eyes covered with that cloth for a bit.) Cant be Obito as Obito gave his eye away, Tobi isnt missing his eye, hes just covering it(check chapter 510,page vs Konan, both eyes are revealed).
Nagato awakens his rinnegan before he met Yahiko(check chapter 444, page 17)when he was attacked by ninjas who killed his parents/guardians.
Lol I like how you used guardians. I think it would be funny if Tobi was Nagato's father and that's how he has the Rinn. and when he speaks of Nagato's Uzumaki background, he is talking about the mothers background. Could all be possible with Sharingan whipping the mom's mind. She think she was impregnated by her husband but it was Madara. In fact if he implanted the eyes into Nagato, that what he probably did. Implanted them and then whipped his mine clean of the event.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 10:36:00
There is four roads.
Madara died at VOTE but created Tobi (Some kinda essence of himself) collected the scraps and that continued on his goal.
Madara died at VOTE and his apprentice Tobi collected the scraps and continued on his goal.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but only appeared to be. Created some kinda of essence of himself (Tobi) and continued to live on until he died some time after the creation of Nagato.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but lived and passed down his info to Tobi, an apprentice, who continued his goal while Madara lived in the shadow until he died shortly after the creation of Nagato. Don't think Madara died at VOTE, he survived but he probably came out seriously hurt by that.
I don't think he unlocked Rinnegan against Hashirama... unless he did literally 1 second before dying, but I don't think that's what he meant when he said "before my death".
I mean, do you really think Hashirama would have been as powerful as to defeat a Rinneganned Madara? It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. As far as we know Madara and Hashirama were pretty close to each other in terms of power with Madara having only EMS.
Madara with Rinne should have been definitely been the winner in a fight with Shodaime.
Also, just something that jumped in my mind... we know there's a technique that allows you to transform illusion into reality. That technique is Izanagi. As far as we know even normal Uchihas can use it, at the cost of one sharingan and something more.
You need to have the Senju DNA as well to make a "better use" of it, altough it's not really clear what that means. Maybe with Senju blood as well as Uchiha's you can use it without sacrificing the Sharingan?
Whatever.
What I wanted to say is... what if Tobi is the result of Madara using another supposedly powerful technique concerning illusion and reality (the power of creation of Rikudo Rinne)? A technique called... Izanami :D
Meh, not sure if I would like it if things were this way.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 10:40:55
Cant be Obito as Obito gave his eye away, Tobi isnt missing his eye, hes just covering it(check chapter 510,page vs Konan, both eyes are revealed). I agree it can't possibly be Obito, pretty clear.
But still I don't think it's because of the reason you said :P
I mean, the fact that Tobi has both eyes doesn't necessarily mean those are his original eyes. He has quite a biiiiiig collection of "eyes" in his hideout if you remember :D
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 10:46:28
There is four roads.
Madara died at VOTE but created Tobi (Some kinda essence of himself) collected the scraps and that continued on his goal.
Madara died at VOTE and his apprentice Tobi collected the scraps and continued on his goal.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but only appeared to be. Created some kinda of essence of himself (Tobi) and continued to live on until he died some time after the creation of Nagato.
Madara didn't die at VOTE but lived and passed down his info to Tobi, an apprentice, who continued his goal while Madara lived in the shadow until he died shortly after the creation of Nagato. Don't think Madara died at VOTE, he survived but he probably came out seriously hurt by that.
I don't think he unlocked Rinnegan against Hashirama... unless he did literally 1 second before dying, but I don't think that's what he meant when he said "before my death".
I mean, do you really think Hashirama would have been as powerful as to defeat a Rinneganned Madara? It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. As far as we know Madara and Hashirama were pretty close to each other in terms of power with Madara having only EMS.
Madara with Rinne should have been definitely been the winner in a fight with Shodaime.
Also, just something that jumped in my mind... we know there's a technique that allows you to transform illusion into reality. That technique is Izanagi. As far as we know even normal Uchihas can use it, at the cost of one sharingan and something more.
You need to have the Senju DNA as well to make a "better use" of it, altough it's not really clear what that means. Maybe with Senju blood as well as Uchiha's you can use it without sacrificing the Sharingan?
Whatever.
What I wanted to say is... what if Tobi is the result of Madara using another supposedly powerful technique concerning illusion and reality (the power of creation of Rikudo Rinne)? A technique called... Izanami :D
Meh, not sure if I would like it if things were this way.
Well that is very freaking true. He must have activated it shortly after that fight... but that means most of what Tobi says is a lie about him being a shell of his former self after that fight. If anything, he'd be stronger.
The thing about Izanagi is not true. Not even Uchiha could use it. I am even inclined to believe they couldn't, however the Manga says they could and labled it a Kinjutsu... however to use it effectively Senju DNA and a ***load of Chakra, which you'd get from the Senju DNA and the Sharingan. This is how Danzo did it. He had the arm made from the DNA of the 1st Hokage. He than had the Sharingan's in them which he used for the technique. Meaning you don't have to be an Uchiha, and you don't have to be a Senju. You just need to have both's DNA.
Izanagi is a genjutsu that is cast on the user instead of others and is the most powerful amongst this type of genjutsu.[1] When activated, the caster removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within their personal space. To a degree this allows the user to control their own state of existence. It is normally only active for the briefest of moments.[2]
This technique is capable of turning injuries and even death inflicted upon the user into mere illusions. Whenever the user receives a fatal injury, he or she automatically fades away as though they were an illusion all along and then returns back to reality; physically real and unscathed. The technique is based on an ability the Sage of the Six Paths had, referred to as "Creation of All Things" (万物創造, Banbutsu Sōzō). The process he used is explained to have initially involved the administration of imagination, and the spiritual energy which forms the basis of Yin chakra to create shape and form from nothingness. Then, through the application of vitality, and the physical energy which forms the basis of Yang chakra, he would breathe life into the prior form. Thus, a technique with the power to turn imagination into reality was born, known as Izanagi.[3]
Izanagi can only be used by those with the genetic traits of the Sage of the Six Paths. The Uchiha, descended from the Sage, are able to perform Izanagi with their Sharingan. In exchange for the brief control of reality that it allows them, the Sharingan with which Izanagi is cast becomes blind. For this reason the Uchiha labelled it a kinjutsu. Danzō Shimura, in an effort to make practical use of the technique, had ten Sharingan embedded into his right arm. He also had Orochimaru extend the lifespan of each Sharingan's Izanagi to a minute, allowing him to use the technique for up to ten minutes, with breaks in between as he deemed necessary. However, because Danzō is not an Uchiha, his chakra levels drop substantially every time a new Sharingan is used to activate the technique.
To make full use of Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju, who are also descended from the Sage. For this reason Danzō had some of Hashirama Senju's DNA transplanted into his arm, which had the added benefit of increasing his physical energy and vitality. Tobi also makes use of Hashirama's DNA, though he claims to have gained control of it, unlike Danzō.
That is a good idea though. Maybe Madara used Izanagi for it's creation purpose and created Tobi. Ha, that'd be great. But maybe it it was an entirely different technique called Izanami. But, I don't see why it'd have to be a different one.
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-10-20 10:46:44
It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. He beat Madara + Nine-tails without any ocular abiliities, he also could control tail beasts without a sharingan and apparantly several aswell. So yea, dont have to really know the rest without already knowing he was a force to be reckoned with in his prime.
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 10:49:12
It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. He beat Madara + Nine-tails without any ocular abiliities, he also could control tail beasts without a sharingan and apparantly several aswell. So yea, dont have to really know the rest without already knowing he was a force to be reckoned with in his prime. Oh.. could counter argument.
I find it hard to believe that Madara had the Rinn. in his fight with the 1st Hokage. Unless he activated it mid fight. Though, if he survived and managed to set things up as they are now and die... how did Tobi slip up and Kabuto manage to get Madara's DNA?
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-10-20 10:49:13
Well...this thread blew up while I was playing it seems. Too much reading, I'll be back when you guys have figured out the answer! Make a resume at the end okay?
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 10:50:53
Well...this thread blew up while I was playing it seems. Too much reading, I'll be back when you guys have figured out the answer! Make a resume at the end okay?
Haha. I don't think we will ever find the answer. The three of us all have very different ideas and views but I think we are figuring out the weaknesses to our ideas though each other.
 Fenrir.Yinsha
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By Fenrir.Yinsha 2011-10-20 10:51:18
Kagami was shown to be in Tobirama's team in the first shinobi world war.
-Tobi is a Uchiha that uses space time ninjutsu.
-Similar hair, right age.
-Kagami also is stated to disappear some time before/during the Uchiha massacre when Tobi supposedly helps Itachi.
Pretty much the only Uchiha not confirmed dead that could pull off Tobi.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 10:58:24
Izanagi can only be used by those with the genetic traits of the Sage of the Six Paths. The Uchiha, descended from the Sage, are able to perform Izanagi with their Sharingan. In exchange for the brief control of reality that it allows them, the Sharingan with which Izanagi is cast becomes blind. For this reason the Uchiha labelled it a kinjutsu.
[cut]
To make full use of Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju, who are also descended from the Sage. For this reason Danzō had some of Hashirama Senju's DNA transplanted into his arm, which had the added benefit of increasing his physical energy and vitality. Tobi also makes use of Hashirama's DNA, though he claims to have gained control of it, unlike Danzō.
I think there are a few inconsistancies with that, probably because we don't know enough of this technique yet.
When Madara first describes it he tells it's a forbidden technique (kinjutsu) with a high cost (you lose the sharingan, maybe something else?) which every Uchiha could use.
So far so good, it's the same thing reported in your text, first sentence I bolded up.
Second sentence I bolded up continues this line of coherence.
It just says that to make "full use" of Izanagi you also need Senju dna.
It's a pretty generic sentence, hard to tell what "full use" means, but we could guess it's something that reduces/avoids the loss of the sharingan or possible other losses.
Then there's the third sentence I bolded up, which comes from a sentence Tobi says to Konan.
It's a pretty ambiguous sentence which can be interpretated mainly in two ways:
1) "I gained the power of the Senju on myself" i.e. I performed some wicked experiment and imbued the power of Senju inside of me, and gained full control of it unlike Danzo.
If I'm not wrong this is also how you understood his sentence.
I dunno, not saying it's wrong but it seems strange. If he really *literally* got the Senju power why does he says he's "powerless" and cannot act aside from avoiding enemies' attacks with his space-time ninjutsu? Why doesn't he use the Senju power? Why can he use it only for Izanagi? Sounds strange to me.
2) Here's the second possible interpretation.
"I gained good knowledge of the senju power" i.e. I experimented way more than Orochimaru did and created an army of powerful Hashirama clones. So he means that he got the senju power not literally on himself, but metaphorically, as he "controls" the power of Hashirama through his army of clones.
As for Danzo needing both, we don't really know if he needed Senju power to use Izanagi, or if that was just another form of powerup, but even if he needed it, we could say it's because he was related to neither senju nor uchiha, so he needed both even to make use of the technique at his half-power.
What do you say?
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:02:52
It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. He beat Madara + Nine-tails without any ocular abiliities, he also could control tail beasts without a sharingan and apparantly several aswell. So yea, dont have to really know the rest without already knowing he was a force to be reckoned with in his prime. What we know is that Hashirama and EMS Madara were more or less at the same level of power.
"more or less" means that in a 1 vs 1 fight it would have been hard to say who could prevail. Anybody could have, and history tells us (unless history is wrong! :P) that Hashirama prevailed.
It's possible and not incoherent that among 2 practically equal powers one eventually prevails over the other.
But this goes for Hashirama and EMS Madara.
I may be wrong but I'm leaning to thing that Hashirama and Rinne Madara wouldn't have been "more or less the same", and Madara would have been quite or at least a big more powerful than Shodaime.
I.E. no way Hashirama would have won against a Rinneganned Madara, imho.
 Bismarck.Misao
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By Bismarck.Misao 2011-10-20 11:02:54
*walks in here, looks, and walks out to look for the OnePiece, or how about joining FairyTail guild*
[+]
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:04:19
Haha. I don't think we will ever find the answer. The three of us all have very different ideas and views but I think we are figuring out the weaknesses to our ideas though each other. ^!!!!
And I'm enjoying it fully B)
Despite all the errors Kishimoto may have done through the course of his manga (and he sure made many!) I think he proved to us several times that he's particularly good at deceiving and surprising us readers. This Tobi thing is just one of the many ;)
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-10-20 11:12:21
I was never a big fan of this manga, but Kishimoto lost all of my esteem at the end of Pain saga. That was just the lamest thing ever lol. And I hope that even fans will admit that.
On topic: To-bi or not To-bi, this is the question... (silliest joke ever).
[+]
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:14:57
I was never a big fan of this manga, but Kishimoto lost all of my esteem at the end of Pain saga. That was just the lamest thing ever lol. And I hope that even fans will admit that. If you're talking about the pathetic mega-resurrection or the way Nagato gave in after 3 seconds talkin with Naruto... yeah.
There's still a part of me that hopes it was the editors' fault forcing Kishimoto to do the megaresurrection istead of his own choice :(
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 11:15:17
So what this all means is Izanagi is an ability that VERY BRIEFLY allows a user with the Sharingan (or more specifically a descendant of the Sage of the Six Paths) to turn reality into an illusion and allow them to then turn it into something else. In exchange for your eye, you can take this giant masamune coming into your body and cleaving you in half and make it an illusion and appear off to the side unharmed. When I say briefly I mean they had a second or less to pull this off.
Using Senju DNA this ability can become much more practical and be used for the same reason I just gave, avoiding death, something Danzo did numerous times. Now, with the DNA he was able to extend the use of this Jutsu to 1 minute. Meaning, he was able to make one eye equal one minute, not 1 second. The Senju DNA also gave him the chakra to use 10 Sharingan like he was. That's what it means when it says you must have Senju DNA to make full use of the Jutsu.
Now for Tobi, he uses Zetsu has a harvest for body parts quite often. Much like how he did when his arm was poisoned from his fight with Danzo's body guards, and much like how he used it from his fight with Konan where he lost almost half his body it seems in that fight. I also imagine he got the same arm after removing it from his fight with Yondaime where he accidentally used his Time Space and came back with the chain going though his arm.
Now with Zetsu or part of Zetsu being a creation of the 4th's DNA, it's easy to say that Tobi has part of his DNA in his body, and unlike Danzo who lost control of it and the arm went crazy and turned into a giant tree and he ripped it from his body, Tobi has mastered and controlled it to a level that no one thought possible... in and outside of his body.
Now Konan used a Jutsu that blew up for almost 6 minutes. Tobi's Time Space was only 4-5. Meaning he needed almost a whole minute of Izanagi to escape death from that Jutsu. Meaning he had enough time to avoid it.
Anyways, that what I get from all of that.
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By Sylph.Reaplife 2011-10-20 11:18:58
Hmmm. Might as well put in my two cents:
I think "Tobi" is the original Zetsu. Either the other part of the black Zetsu (note, we haven't seen the left side of his face), or Zetsu's original form was at least, in part, human.
Why? When he ripped off his own arm, and when he replaced it, it looked the the arm of a white Zetsu. Granted, this could be some form of genetic modification.
As for Nagato's eyes? Considering that Madara knew of Nagato, I believe that Nagato did have Madara's eyes. That is why Tobi said that he was the one to give the eyes. This could be some form of experiment on the eyes development prior to putting them in his own bodies, or could be something on Madara's orders.
But for Tobi's true identity, while I do believe it to be the original Zetsu, as they are so buddy-buddy, I could also accept Kagami Uchiha, or some random person that we don't know... Will just have to wait and see, as I doubt anyone will actually figure it out.
Edit: Was kinda beaten to it...
If for some reason a time-travel theory ends up being the case, I'm going to Japan and hurting someone...
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 11:19:52
It's true we don't know much about Hashirama, but it seems a bit beyond the little we know about him. He beat Madara + Nine-tails without any ocular abiliities, he also could control tail beasts without a sharingan and apparantly several aswell. So yea, dont have to really know the rest without already knowing he was a force to be reckoned with in his prime. What we know is that Hashirama and EMS Madara were more or less at the same level of power.
"more or less" means that in a 1 vs 1 fight it would have been hard to say who could prevail. Anybody could have, and history tells us (unless history is wrong! :P) that Hashirama prevailed.
It's possible and not incoherent that among 2 practically equal powers one eventually prevails over the other.
But this goes for Hashirama and EMS Madara.
I may be wrong but I'm leaning to thing that Hashirama and Rinne Madara wouldn't have been "more or less the same", and Madara would have been quite or at least a big more powerful than Shodaime.
I.E. no way Hashirama would have won against a Rinneganned Madara, imho.
I think the Shodai was very much so more powerful than Madara, by how much? Enough much. Though it wasn't a power of I can destroy you, it was a power of untold magnitudes where it was said that he controlled MULTIPLE Biju at once. (I believe 3 7 and 9) this leaves me to believe that after taking away the 9 tails, Madara probably pulled out Rinn. and Shodai probably used the fox and maybe even another Biju to fight it off. I mean Naruto beat Pain... isn't that enough reason to believe that Shodai could beat Madara?
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 11:22:05
I was never a big fan of this manga, but Kishimoto lost all of my esteem at the end of Pain saga. That was just the lamest thing ever lol. And I hope that even fans will admit that. If you're talking about the pathetic mega-resurrection or the way Nagato gave in after 3 seconds talkin with Naruto... yeah.
There's still a part of me that hopes it was the editors' fault forcing Kishimoto to do the megaresurrection istead of his own choice :(
No, I think this was all planned. Talk no Jutsu has always been Naruto's best technique. He used it on Zabuza, Gaara just to name a few. It failed on Sasuke and has failed on a few others. However, Pain was in a spot where it was entirely possible for him to sway toward Naruto's side and use to rest of his life force to bring back the people he had killed.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:23:32
Didn't Konan say that she planned the explosions to last 6 minutes when they actually lasted much less because she used too much chakra before that? Not sure, lot of time passed since I read that chapter.
Tobi could have used Izanagi just to trasform illusion into reality and make so he was half a meter away from the explosion or something like that.
Meh :3 whatever, in the end I guess it doesn't matter that much, it's more or less the same!
And I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope!) we're gonna see Tobi arrive on the battlefloor next chapter.
Who else could stop the meteorite Madara summoned?
Actually I wonder why Madara is so *** mad at the joint shinobi army. I mean... not that Madara wouldn't have reasons to, but it's not clearly explained so far, and Kabuto is not taking full control of Madara either (I wonder if he even can, since his Edo Tensei is "special" and different from the others)
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 11:27:02
Hmmm. Might as well put in my two cents:
I think "Tobi" is the original Zetsu. Either the other part of the black Zetsu (note, we haven't seen the left side of his face), or Zetsu's original form was at least, in part, human.
Why? When he ripped off his own arm, and when he replaced it, it looked the the arm of a white Zetsu. Granted, this could be some form of genetic modification.
As for Nagato's eyes? Considering that Madara knew of Nagato, I believe that Nagato did have Madara's eyes. That is why Tobi said that he was the one to give the eyes. This could be some form of experiment on the eyes development prior to putting them in his own bodies, or could be something on Madara's orders.
But for Tobi's true identity, while I do believe it to be the original Zetsu, as they are so buddy-buddy, I could also accept Kagami Uchiha, or some random person that we don't know... Will just have to wait and see, as I doubt anyone will actually figure it out.
Edit: If for some reason a time-travel theory ends up being the case, I'm going to Japan and hurting someone...
I like that idea of it being Zetsu but I think Black Zetsu is the orginal while White Zetsu is the Shodai's DNA experment taking over and creating an entire new half of him. Them being buddy, buddy is a great reason for this, but I think it's only because I think Tobi made Zetsu incredibly powerful. And as you said, yes Tobi uses white Zetsu to repair his body, but I think that's a way of keeping the Senju DNA in his body.
As for Uchiha Kagami, it's not him. It's so not him. I can't even go into detail why it's not him. Omfg, it's not him. D:<
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Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:27:03
No, I think this was all planned. Talk no Jutsu has always been Naruto's best technique. He used it on Zabuza, Gaara just to name a few. It failed on Sasuke and has failed on a few others. However, Pain was in a spot where it was entirely possible for him to sway toward Naruto's side and use to rest of his life force to bring back the people he had killed. I'd be fine with the Talk no Jutsu, that alone wouldn't have been a big issue.
I was more annoyed by the 7-dragon-sphere-resurrection no jutsu.
I mean... using his last remaining essence to use the power of life and creation of the Rikudo Rinne to give life back to SOME of the inhabitants would have been ok, but resurrecting almost everybody?
And showing people (Tenzo? And others?) rebuilding houses in 2 nanoseconds with wood technique?
I mean... that was a particularly honeyfilled and sappy, makwish ending that partially ruined the epic and dramatic scenario delineated by Pain's mega-shinra-tensei and the deaths before that.
Reverting PART of that tragedy would have been ok (it's still a shonen manga, not a seinen!), but making things as almost nothing happened really was... I dunno... lame.
I didn't like it at all :(
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Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:29:40
It's sooooo not Kagami! I agree >:D
I like the Zetsu theory too :)
And really hope time-travel ***stays out of this manga, damnit >_>
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-10-20 11:30:23
Sechs said: What we know is that Hashirama and EMS Madara were more or less at the same level of power.
"more or less" means that in a 1 vs 1 fight it would have been hard to say who could prevail They werent, Madara was on a 2 to 1 fight and lost to Hashirama. Its hard to say what arsenal Hashi used against Madara, but considering the nine tails is the single strongest tail-beast and Madara having his eye tech and still.
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-10-20 11:31:12
There's a white Zetsu in all of us.
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Server: Sylph
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By Sylph.Reaplife 2011-10-20 11:33:04
I like that idea of it being Zetsu but I think Black Zetsu is the orginal while White Zetsu is the Shodai's DNA experment taking over and creating an entire new half of him. Them being buddy, buddy is a great reason for this, but I think it's only because I think Tobi made Zetsu incredibly powerful. And as you said, yes Tobi uses white Zetsu to repair his body, but I think that's a way of keeping the Senju DNA in his body.
As for Uchiha Kagami, it's not him. It's so not him. I can't even go into detail why it's not him. Omfg, it's not him. D:<
I'm perfectly content with it not being him. I would be able to accept it, albeit annoyed.
Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2011-10-20 11:33:20
They werent, Madara was on a 2 to 1 fight and lost to Hashirama. I think I missed something here, when did they have a 2 to 1 fight? And what do you mean with that? D:
I think I recall them being the stronger clans in the ninja world of their time and after endless and usless wars finally agreed on teaming up to create Konohagakure.
Meaning Uchiha clan couldn't easily prevail over Senju and viceversa, which also leads me to think Madara couldn't easily prevail over Hashirama and viceversa.
Did I dream reading those lines? D:
In that case I blame Shiomi >.>'''
Phoenix.Shiomi
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By Phoenix.Shiomi 2011-10-20 11:34:03
Didn't Konan say that she planned the explosions to last 6 minutes when they actually lasted much less because she used too much chakra before that? Not sure, lot of time passed since I read that chapter.
Tobi could have used Izanagi just to trasform illusion into reality and make so he was half a meter away from the explosion or something like that.
Meh :3 whatever, in the end I guess it doesn't matter that much, it's more or less the same!
And I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope!) we're gonna see Tobi arrive on the battlefloor next chapter.
Who else could stop the meteorite Madara summoned?
Actually I wonder why Madara is so *** mad at the joint shinobi army. I mean... not that Madara wouldn't have reasons to, but it's not clearly explained so far, and Kabuto is not taking full control of Madara either (I wonder if he even can, since his Edo Tensei is "special" and different from the others)
No, she kept it going the full length of time. She knew it was going to use nearly all of her chakra to do so. Had she used it all she might have gotten him, but she would have died as well. The fact that Tobi TOOK damage form the explosions means he had to come back to the plane on earth and take a hit from one of them and then use Izanagi to move himself away from it near Konan, yes. But I believe the way he does this is by waiting out the explosion. This allowed him to stay within it, wait for it to stop, and then attack her when she collapsed.
As for that, I thought maybe Tobi would stop it, but I think he is heading to the real Naruto and Bi. Thus, all of those people are going to die, unless I'm wrong. Thought, maybe the real naruto jumps in and stops it and some kinda Biju bomb. And I don't think Kabuto is controlling him, and I think he has set measures to try and control him.
OHGOD! What if Itachi gets to Kabuto and is able to stop the Edo Tensei and the meteorite turns to dust.
So there are 3 possible people to stop it.
Tobi
The real Naruto
Itachi
As for why Madara hates them? Maybe he doesn't hate them but they sure are attacking him aren't they? Naruto already made him force his hand twice with EMS and Rinn, so why wouldn't he blow them all up?
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