Mujin Obi Question

Ah, in that case even better if it is in fact independent and widens the gap by a considerable enough margin.

Small addendum to this post: avatars have a pDIF cap of 4.2 that cannot be surpassed during critical hits as the situation is with players. That means a critical hit for an avatar is essentially the same as adding a bit of attack, which still doesn't do very much when their average pDIF is already going to be extremely high comparatively.

In short, crits. are about as useless as attack to avatars.

No, it's like adding a metric ***-ton of attack.

It's not that attack doesn't do much for avatars, but that you need a LOT of it to do much and most equipment doesn't add much. Summoner's Pigaches, for example, are garbage. Sacrifice Torque, on the other hand, adds enough attack that you actually see the difference. Mujin Obi seems to be somewhere in between.

So yes, if you're BPing Rock Eaters then crit rate probably doesn't help because PDIF is already capped from attack alone, but if you're doing anything even remotely difficult (even Easy Prey) then crit rate is the single best stat you can get assuming accuracy is capped. A crit will about double the damage your avatar deals.

Don't believe me? Why is Gnarled Horn so popular for SMNs? Why does Razed Ruins double BP damage? I'll give you a hint: It's not the DEX. Want more proof? Send your avatar in to melee a mob. No BP, just melee, so you can see which hits crit and which don't. Observe the damage difference between the two. If there's any significant difference between crit & non-crit, your PDIF is not capped, and the same damage difference will be present in your BPs between crit and non-crit.

I'm of the opinion that our set bonus is, indeed, pretty worthless. Unfortunately we just don't have many alternatives. In fact with capped accuracy, crit rate is the only stat I'd say is better than the set bonus. I currently do physical BPs in full AF3+2, even though I have full AF2+1 and just about everything else under the sun. I didn't know about the Shadow Trews augment, now that I do I'll definitely be pursuing a pair. Selenian Cap is another piece where you can get pet crit. You can also get it on body with AF2 but I'm pretty sure the AF3 body's straight damage bonus is better even without the set bonus. So really you should be doing physical BPs in AF3+2 hands, body, and feet no matter what.

Are you seriously comparing 2% crit rate to gnarled horn and razed ruins? Why are you even using predator claws in abyssea? Your most likely benefit from either of those atmas to begin with is the 30% increase to critical hit damage which, while it certainly isn't doubling your BP damage, will be a noticeable damage increase. Apples, meet oranges.

Attack has little to no effect on avatar BPs and attacks because it cannot possibly increase their power beyond a certain point that is very easy to reach. It would perhaps be more useful on higher level targets if there were more pieces of gear that added substantial amounts of attack, but in those cases you're likely best off not using the BPs that rely on the attack from gear to be effective.

What are you smoking? For starters, Predator Claws dominates in Abyssea. With the right atma, it blows away Heavenly Strike on most NMs.

Secondly, I'm baffled by the fact that my comparison of 2% crit rate to Gnarled Horn is confusing you. Gnarled Horn adds crit rate and no other damage modifiers, so it's just a bigger version of 2% crit rate bonus. If Gnarled Horn helps, how can you argue that 2% crit rate doesn't?

You don't need the Crit Dmg +30% from Razed Ruins for Gnarled Horn to help your physical BPs. You can do Gnarled Horn by itself and will see a drastic improvement in physical BP damage.

I'm sorry but that's flat out wrong. The reason attack is of little use is because you need an impractical amount of it to make a significant difference on PDIF. That PDIF cap is not easy to reach, in fact it's almost impossible except against Lv0 mobs.

Crit rate is totally different, crit always has a significant difference on PDIF unless you're capped, which you won't be on anything worth discussing.

I think you need to re-read Kegsay's testing. You are the one comparing apples to oranges. Just because attack doesn't impact PDIF much doesn't mean crits also don't.

You're comparing 2% to 50%, you can't use atma on any content that actually matters; in which case sacrificing a set proc for 2% crit rate which is outright stupid as ***.

On anything where you're significantly under the pDIF cap to the point where the minimal amount of attack you'd gain from gear makes a substantial difference, why are you using a BP that relies on that attack?

That 2% is still statistically inferior to the chance of doubling your blood pact damage even inside of abyssea.

I've been a summoner for some 10 years and tried everything under the sun regarding avatars. Just my opinion, you are welcome to your own opinion. I feel items with avatar and pet attack are useless for summoner. An avatars main dmg lies in its BPs and not actual melee hits. You can see this by attacking mobs next to a beastmaster and comparing hits for hits. Bst will be doing 200-500 melee pet hits, and avatars 50-150.

Mujin Obi is a good waste of a belt slot IN MY OPINION, where you could add whatever else you might need. Now remember I said BPs are the main source of a smns dmg. You can get far superior numbers hands down by having -15 bp delay at the time you do the bp. I also believe that -bp delay gear is better than AF3+2. If you already meet the -15 bp delay cap and have open slots whatever you want is fine. AF3 or Mujin Obi or whatever.

So in short Mujin Obi will not increase magical avatar dmg. But if you got it to see an increase in your avatars damage it doesn't add very much, first and foremost reach -15 bp delay to maximize damage. Smns are all about their bps.

And on a sidenote, if you want to increase avatar magical damage, twilight cape works on them. Adds a good 200-300 dmg roughly.

Not sure if trolling^

well we can't be arguing with someone that's been playing before the game was even released.

That's the biggest problem with that post?

dunno, didn't get past that.

Literally the only thing right about his post is that Bst pets melee for more than Smn pets.
How can you have played Smn for "10 years" (lol @ claiming to have a RoZ job for 10 years) and not figured out how to separate the BP timer down gear and actual BP gear in a macro?

what the ***

Same person that suggested CHR merits on dnc for better sambas. Must be trolling.

That post was disturbing on many levels. Krystal... you do realize you can gain the benefit of BP timer gear and still have 3 full seconds to swap into BP damage gear before the BP lands?

Actually I'm comparing 2% to 20% but that's beside the point. The point is that you originally said crit rate does absolutely nothing because PDIF is capped. I said it's not.

Either you think crit rate makes such a small difference that it's not worth doing, or you think it literally does nothing. Pick one please and stick to it.

Read: Everything
It doesn't matter how low your PDIF is, avatar attack from gear won't make a substantial difference except apparently for Sacrifice Torque which must have ludicrous amounts of attack on it.
Because even with no enhancements to attack, they still beat magical BPs. Adding attack may not do much, but every little bit helps.

This is like saying if I can do 500 damage, and use gear to enhance that to 510; but I could alternatively do 300 damage and use gear to enhance it to 400... which would I use? Gear clearly benefits the 300 damage move more than the 500, so according to your logic I should use the 300 damage move!

How can you even make such an assertion when there is no data out there to support it?

P.S. Set bonus doesn't double BP damage. It adds the amount of MP you saved plus 50%. So you only get double BP damage if you saved 50% MP on the Blood Boon proc. That's why I'm of the opinion that crit rate +2% is better than set bonus +3%. Crit rate is almost always double damage. Also, Pred Claws is 3 hits, so the crit rate will average out better in the short term rather than the freak super huge numbers.

*Edit:
Just to expand on how crits affect BPs, here is an example breakdown. I'm sure you've noticed that Pred Claws damage seems to land in 3 tiers. One is super low and fairly rare, another is toward the middle and less rare, while the greater majority are in the top tier doing high damage.

Let's say your Pred Claws lows are 200-400 damage, mids are 800-1200, and highs are 1600-2400. What this means is:

* Your first swing is doing 800 non-crit, and 1600 crit.
* Your second swing is doing 200 non-crit, and 400 crit.
* Your third swing is doing 200 non-crit, and 400 crit.

Criticals are a HUGE part of physical BPs. They are the source of most of the damage. Even single hit BPs like Spinning Dive, it's the same thing.

cause razed ruins totala gives 0

I'm not comparing it to Razed Ruins + Gnarled Horn. I'm comparing it to Gnarled Horn alone. Or did you not read this part of my post:

you went in abyssea and eyeballed stuff with GH instead of RR, k

I believe it's been quite clear that my argument is crit rate and attack do very little for Blood Pacts which is why the chance to have a set proc is statistically superior to wearing 2% crit rate and 10 attack + whatever attack from relic feet over full +2. Enough emphasis for you?

Also, you mentioned both RR and GH. GH can not and will not provide as much of an increase as RR, and certainly will not provide enough of an increase with 20% crit rate to double your blood pact damage. Are you serious with this or are you just trying to waste my time?

Set Bonus increases your blood pact damage based on the amount of MP saved with Blood Boon, similar to BLM's set effect. So it will multiply the damage by 1.5, 1.75 or 2.0. Hint: multiplying by 2 = doubling. 2% chance to crit one of the hits on predator claws vs. an extra 3% +/- chance to increase your damage by 50~100%. Critting will not double your damage.

Spinning Dive doesn't crit by the way.

Does

Interesting. Doesn't change much though, 2% crit rate is still not a large enough boost to outweigh the increased chance at bonus damage, particularly outside of abyssea where this matters far more.

Further, if you were using RR, GH and SS, most notably SS and RR for the bonus 60% crit damage, and still just over doubled your damage, it puts further emphasis on the fact that critting your blood pact will not omgautomaticallydoublesdamage.

So, how about that Mujin Obi?

Also just reread part of your post Pergatory, and what the ***? Are you trying to tell me that 2% crit rate causing maybe one or two of the three hits of Predator Claws critting is superior to doubling the damage of the entirety of the blood pact?

Sorry for double post but is this true?!? I'm too lazy to get one off of my mule to test lol.

I just used RR/GH/SS to make the fact that it can crit stand out more (All the 70 BPs and eclipse bite can.) Not really arguing over what crits do without crit damage+ atma.

Can't be bothered reading through it again, but i'm pretty sure kegsays attack testing showed that the reason why attack does little for avatars is because their attack is already really high, and that crits also have a similar minimal impact on damage (without crit dmg+.)

This this this this this this this. Aside from avatars having high attack part, they don't really. At best they have the attack of a decently geared 2 handed DD, SMN just cannot augment that attack enough to make a massive difference, especially not in the foot and leg slots. Which is why the extra chance at actually increasing your bloodpact damage by 50~100% is superior to adding 2% crit rate and 10~ attack.

Rush is the only Lv70 pact that cannot crit iirc

If it doesn't say pet in the description, it doesn't help pets.

It also only says Elemental Magic in the item description, yet it affects Cures. My guess on that though is they meant "All spells with an element".

Well you were saying it was super easy to reach PDIF cap and thus attack & crit rate both literally did nothing at all, so this makes it more clear what your position is, thank you.

I never said GH would provide as much benefit as RR, nor did I say 2% crit rate would provide the same benefit as GH. Nor did I say 20% crit rate would double your BP damage. Where are you getting this ***? Are you even reading my posts? 3% set bonus won't double your damage either. It won't even double your damage 3% of the time.

Critting can and will double your damage. Again, all you have to do in order to see this for yourself is watch your avatar's regular melee. 80 damage regular hit followed by 160 damage crit seems pretty obvious to me.