Barspell Test
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2010-09-08
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Barspell Test
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 Asura.Xenophire
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By Asura.Xenophire 2011-09-19 10:51:49
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Odin.Gollum said: »
And as a last question that I was wondering allthough it's a bit offtopic: How can I push up my enfeebling resistance? Is there a way at all? Because all the gear that is known for barspells always is about the elemental barspells but never about the enfeebling part. I thought maybe via the whole Solace thing since it says "grants an additional Magic Defense Bonus to the associated element" and since enfeeblings have their own element too maybe Solace works for this as well? But gearwise I can't really think of something besides throwing Fast Cast and Haste in.
We have Bar spells for enfeebs. Especially on mobs like Tunga, Glavoid, Isgebind, Dragua, etc, the barelement paired up with the matching barenfeeb go great together. About 80% of the time I see my party resisting the enfeeb all together. It's quite nice.

Barblizzara + Barparalyzra, Barstonra + Barpetra, so on so forth.
 Odin.Gollum
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By Odin.Gollum 2011-09-19 14:51:47
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Carbuncle.Tweeek said: »
I don't see how the HQ Clerics could beat the AF3+2 even if it did give 10MDB like you said you're getting the set effect.

Never mentioned anything about Cleric's. All about Blessed and it's original back in the day found out MDB of 5%. Which was said by

Cerberus.Vaness said: »
Test no1. (...)(this one was out of curiosity wondered if the MDB was a hidden effect from body only or absolutly needed solace as well) (...) Test no2. (...)
Conclusion:After doing x10 stonega 3 with blessed only and 10x totally naked, I came to the conclusion that the body doesnt have any MDB if you don't have solace on.

which somehow reads to me she figured out in her testing that the Bodies neither give MDB at all. That it is the Afflatus Solace that gives 5% with Blessed and 10% with AF3+2. Maybe a language issue on my side but sounded like it. Sorry if I missunderstood on that.

Asura.Pergatory said: »
It's not Solace that gives 10 MDB, it's the combination of Solace plus Orison Bliaud +2. Solace is not needed for Blessed Briault's bonus. So if you were in constant Misery mode, Blessed Briault would actually be better for barspells.

I am aware of Solace giving me 5%MDB on barspells and with the AF3+2 body since it enhances Solace I get 10%. I was more wondering if anyone ever tested out the Blessed Briault +1 (no... not the Cleric's...). I remember it was not really known what the Blessed Briault +1 does and in what way it is better than it's NQ version and I still can't find any good testings on this. Would be interesting because if the NQ gives naturally 5%MDB and the HQ gives only 1% more then AF3+2 definitely outperforms it. BUT! if the HQ (Blessed Briault +1) actually gets double the amount of the NQ (which I doubt considering in what times it was created and how cheap they were with giving good stats) so if it gave 10%MDB then I think Blessed Briault +1 (assuming it gave 10%) would outperform the AF3+2 body with Solace on. But yea as long as it's unknown what number the HQ actually gives it's hard to tell. But then again...if the Blessed Briault NQ naturally gives 5%MDB and I use Solace to it which also gives 5%MDB... does this stack in this case or no? If so we go with 10%MDB stacked on Blessed NQ with Solace on and draw even on AF3+2.

Asura.Xenophire said: »
We have Bar spells for enfeebs. (...)Barblizzara + Barparalyzra, Barstonra + Barpetra, so on so forth.

I know we do have them ^^ question on it is more like, how to boost them. Any equivalent like boosting elemental resistance barspells? I know there is no gear that says "enhances enfeebling resistance spells" or anything. And as far as I know, me as the WHM, I can't be doing anything to improve the power of the resistance of my enfeebling barspells besides pairing them with the appropriate barelemental spell. So basically it is like Pergatory said:

Asura.Pergatory said: »
Nothing really works against that except resistance, magic evasion, and INT/MND. For example to resist paralyze, any of the following will help:
Ice Resistance
Enhances Resist Paralyze
Magic Evasion
MND

there's nothing that I can do as the WHM to boost my bar enfeebling spells but have the ppl have the appropriate gear on, if I understood that right?

It's interesting to find out about the hands. Seems I completely got that wrong. Thanks guys ^^!


Edit: To sum my question up a bit easier.
Blessed Briault NQ 5%MDB stacked with Afflatus Solace 5%MDB gives 10%MDB right? Or does it not stack? I just assume it does but I'm not sure.
versus:
AF3+2 body with enhanced Afflatus Solace giving 10%MDB.
So we have 10% vs. 10%. In this case AF3+2 still outperforms Blessed Briault NQ due to the additional set bonus.
Question though: how much higher is the MDB on the Blessed Briault +1? Is it high enough to outperform AF3+2 with its set bonus or is the Blessed HQ only about the additional 1%MP on it and it does not give higher MDB at all?
 Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-09-19 18:29:04
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Odin.Gollum said: »
Carbuncle.Tweeek said: »
I don't see how the HQ Clerics could beat the AF3+2 even if it did give 10MDB like you said you're getting the set effect.

Never mentioned anything about Cleric's. All about Blessed and it's original back in the day found out MDB of 5%. Which was said by

was obviously a typo.. you're welcome for the answers.
 Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-09-19 18:34:42
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Odin.Gollum said: »
Asura.Pergatory said: »
It's not Solace that gives 10 MDB, it's the combination of Solace plus Orison Bliaud +2. Solace is not needed for Blessed Briault's bonus. So if you were in constant Misery mode, Blessed Briault would actually be better for barspells.

I am aware of Solace giving me 5%MDB on barspells and with the AF3+2 body since it enhances Solace I get 10%. I was more wondering if anyone ever tested out the Blessed Briault +1 (no... not the Cleric's...). I remember it was not really known what the Blessed Briault +1 does and in what way it is better than it's NQ version and I still can't find any good testings on this. Would be interesting because if the NQ gives naturally 5%MDB and the HQ gives only 1% more then AF3+2 definitely outperforms it. BUT! if the HQ (Blessed Briault +1) actually gets double the amount of the NQ (which I doubt considering in what times it was created and how cheap they were with giving good stats) so if it gave 10%MDB then I think Blessed Briault +1 (assuming it gave 10%) would outperform the AF3+2 body with Solace on. But yea as long as it's unknown what number the HQ actually gives it's hard to tell. But then again...if the Blessed Briault NQ naturally gives 5%MDB and I use Solace to it which also gives 5%MDB... does this stack in this case or no? If so we go with 10%MDB stacked on Blessed NQ with Solace on and draw even on AF3+2.

wtf are you saying? just use the AF3+2 body with Solace nothing will beat it. How do you think MDB+10 from Blessed +1 would be better than MDB+10 from AF3+2 + % of set proc for 0 dmg? That's assuming HQ Blessed gives MDB+10 which it likely does not.
 Odin.Gollum
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By Odin.Gollum 2011-09-20 00:06:34
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Carbuncle.Tweeek said: »
wtf are you saying? just use the AF3+2 body with Solace nothing will beat it. How do you think MDB+10 from Blessed +1 would be better than MDB+10 from AF3+2 + % of set proc for 0 dmg? That's assuming HQ Blessed gives MDB+10 which it likely does not.

What I am saying is:
Odin.Gollum said: »
Edit: To sum my question up a bit easier.
Blessed Briault NQ 5%MDB stacked with Afflatus Solace 5%MDB gives 10%MDB right? Or does it not stack? I just assume it does but I'm not sure.
versus:
AF3+2 body with enhanced Afflatus Solace giving 10%MDB.
So we have 10% vs. 10%. In this case AF3+2 still outperforms Blessed Briault NQ due to the additional set bonus.
Question though: how much higher is the MDB on the Blessed Briault +1? Is it high enough to outperform AF3+2 with its set bonus or is the Blessed HQ only about the additional 1%MP on it and it does not give higher MDB at all?

And no, I won't "just use the AF3+2 body". I'm not a lemming. I do appreciate ppls testings here because most of it made things very clear to me - things I would have never figured out. Even if I was good enough in math to do all these tests on my own I stil would be sticking with a Xbox360 and coukdn't run any parser programms for it.
Yes maybe you are right, even if the Blessed Briault +1 body had said assumed natural 10% and would give stacked with Solace then 15%, maybe even then AF3+2 body would outperform it with it's set bonus still. Maybe though I like a constant (if it's true) 15% better than hoping for a nice procc of the set every not even 10th casting of a mob. Maybe I aggree with you and am already using the AF3+2 for it. Either way does it not play a too big of a roll what my reasons for this are. I'm curious, I want to know, and this plattform here seems like a perfect spot to get some high quality answers to my questions. At least is what I thought.

I think I phrased three clear and understandable questions. Or in other words "wtf I'm saying" is - and even ppl from LS and some other friends understood what I meant when I was talking to them about it, allthough sadly didn't know the answers to it either:
1) Does Solace 5% stack with the 5% of Blessed Briault NQ?
2) What stats are hidden behind the Blessed Briault +1? (Which is what I'm most curious about since I'm wondering for years and noone ever could answer me that yet.)
3) Depending on the answers to my first two questions, would the HQ be able to outperform the AF3+2 body or at least give enough reason that even Tweeek can see why someone would prefer it over the AF3+2 body due to a possible high constant percentage instead of wishing for luck the set procc jumps in.
 Fenrir.Tarowyn
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2011-09-20 00:38:21
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I swear this used to be on the item page, but no, briault HQ doesn't have any extra MDB.
 Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-09-20 10:30:04
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Odin.Gollum said: »
3) Depending on the answers to my first two questions, would the HQ be able to outperform the AF3+2 body or at least give enough reason that even Tweeek can see why someone would prefer it over the AF3+2 body due to a possible high constant percentage instead of wishing for luck the set procc jumps in.

It's only "luck" or a small % on 1 spell casted. How often are you killing NMs that only cast 1 spell per fight?


per: Motenten

Quote:
Chance of at least one set proc with 3/5 AF3 vs 6 spellcasts: 22%
Chance of at least one set proc with 4/5 AF3 vs 6 spellcasts: 35.4%
Chance of at least one set proc with 5/5 AF3 vs 6 spellcasts: 47%

Assuming:
4% proc rate with 3/5
7% proc rate with 4/5
10% proc rate with 5/5

The proposed hypothetical +5MDB is not going be more effective than 3% proc rate in 6 spells. The more spells per fight the more probable the set bonus will proc.
 Carbuncle.Tweeek
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By Carbuncle.Tweeek 2011-09-20 10:36:23
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P.S. you don't need to use an actual parser for the results you could simply do the Solace testing with the NQ vs HQ yourself by writing down the damage taken.

You could use either Vaness strat or Byrth's suggestion to get your results. The MDB differences should be apparent with small data samples.

Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
If you want to test this more reliably, you could try using Beholders in Abyssea - Tahrongi with Barfira (they use Blaze Spikes). You can hit them a lot faster than you can get a worm to cast Stonega III on you.


Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Suit yourself of course, as I'm not doing the tests, but you can Haste yourself (40% total), get 30% Dual Wield with /NIN, toss on Regen Atma, pull out Lady Bells (D1 clubs), and crank out a thousand trials in the time it takes you to get 100 worm nukes.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-09-20 10:59:04
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This is the only use Blessed has so by replacing it you get inv +1. Even if the HQ was +10 and it did stack, I think the average damage taken still favors AF3. As a bonus, a set proc for 0 damage is more likely to save you from death too. Even if the Blessed was marginally better for certain situations, I have other things I'd rather carry around on me.
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2011-09-20 12:25:49
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Fenrir.Tarowyn said: »
I swear this used to be on the item page, but no, briault HQ doesn't have any extra MDB.
I've heard this before as well, pretty sure it's true.

In regard to Gollum's question, I think Orison Bliaud +2 adds an additional 10 MDB on top of Solace's 5, for 15 total.

Look at Vaness's testing on page 1. Damage with no barspell was 502. WHM has 18 MDB native at Lv81 and up, and she has 5/5 merits so that's another 10 MDB for 28 total. This means base damage was roughly 502 / (100/128) = 642.

That means damage should be roughly like so:
05 MDB: 642 * 100/133 = 483
10 MDB: 642 * 100/138 = 466
15 MDB: 642 * 100/143 = 449

My numbers seem a tiny bit higher than the actuals, likely due to other factors like the elemental resistance value, but in general they match Vaness's testing results. Blessed Briault with no Solace should be 5 MDB, and resulted in 477 damage instead of 483. Orison+2 with Solace should be 15 MDB, and resulted in 442 damage instead of 449.

I think it's safe to say that Orison Bliaud +2 with Solace up provides 15 MDB total. Orison+1 with Solace would be 10 MDB total, and Solace alone is 5.
 Cerberus.Caylene
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By Cerberus.Caylene 2011-09-21 20:57:39
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It's nice if you're straight testing set proc only- but you have to also take into consideration that factors change with your INT/MND (based on the spell) and that your dmg will be more/less vs different mobs based on their stats as well.

Then take even more into consideration if:
a. MND really does reduce MDT on some base level as is speculated (in addition to the known factor of INT vs INT)
b. You've put up Boost-mnd with full enhancing skill+gear+merits

I've experienced much lower MDT with the proper bar-spells up, wearing all AF3+2 pieces except the legs (those are the Cleric's Pantaloons). I've gotten the "it doesn't really matter" comment from some people, but I have definitely noticed that my pt takes less damage that the other party/ies in my alliance.

I suppose I can start running the parser specifically for this, but hasn't all of this data already been gathered on BG forums?

Anyway, interesting post, I love it when people gather more data about this fascinatingly complicated game ^_^
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By Cerberus.Caylene 2011-09-21 21:01:48
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Asura.Xenophire said: »
Odin.Gollum said: »
And as a last question that I was wondering allthough it's a bit offtopic: How can I push up my enfeebling resistance? Is there a way at all? Because all the gear that is known for barspells always is about the elemental barspells but never about the enfeebling part. I thought maybe via the whole Solace thing since it says "grants an additional Magic Defense Bonus to the associated element" and since enfeeblings have their own element too maybe Solace works for this as well? But gearwise I can't really think of something besides throwing Fast Cast and Haste in.
We have Bar spells for enfeebs. Especially on mobs like Tunga, Glavoid, Isgebind, Dragua, etc, the barelement paired up with the matching barenfeeb go great together. About 80% of the time I see my party resisting the enfeeb all together. It's quite nice.

Barblizzara + Barparalyzra, Barstonra + Barpetra, so on so forth.

I second this.
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