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Abortion
 Ragnarok.Beef
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Beef 2011-07-06 08:03:40
Fenrir.Ilax said: Ragnarok.Beef said: everything would be better if people didn't try to run other peoples lives.
remove all religion and everything fixed. (would also fix many other thing too)
@Phoenix.Sehachan don't mix up who believe into religion and what is religion rule/story line/ethic etc.
Edit: I believe we all should follow a life model: moral, religion, science or it would be total chaos. But there the problem now day, no one respect other believe and they try "force/convert" them. Is getting even worse since the more we go the more every country become multi-cultural, and we have to do more sacrifice to please everyone.
Take Canadian problem, they forced an GIM in montreal to hide window because it was shocking muselam when they see people without t-shirt, is kind of that ***that should not be respected into any country.
Anyway, just my 5 cent on it.
Siren.Mosin said: have you ever been making breakfast, cracked an egg, & thought "why can't all abortions be this delicious?" Lol, that was the best part of this thread.
i dont know, it really has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with individual.
if you're an ***, you're going to be an *** no matter if you're religious or scientific.
 Fenrir.Ilax
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Posts: 466
By Fenrir.Ilax 2011-07-06 08:28:44
Ragnarok.Beef said: Fenrir.Ilax said: Ragnarok.Beef said: everything would be better if people didn't try to run other peoples lives.
remove all religion and everything fixed. (would also fix many other thing too)
@Phoenix.Sehachan don't mix up who believe into religion and what is religion rule/story line/ethic etc.
Edit: I believe we all should follow a life model: moral, religion, science or it would be total chaos. But there the problem now day, no one respect other believe and they try "force/convert" them. Is getting even worse since the more we go the more every country become multi-cultural, and we have to do more sacrifice to please everyone.
Take Canadian problem, they forced an GIM in montreal to hide window because it was shocking muselam when they see people without t-shirt, is kind of that ***that should not be respected into any country.
Anyway, just my 5 cent on it.
Siren.Mosin said: have you ever been making breakfast, cracked an egg, & thought "why can't all abortions be this delicious?" Lol, that was the best part of this thread.
i dont know, it really has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with individual.
if you're an ***, you're going to be an *** no matter if you're religious or scientific.
but what make someone an "*** hole", is all base on your believe, eat porc can make you an "*** hole" so is for abortion. All depend on what you believe man. The only real "*** hole" is the one that go again his own religion/moral/ethic etc, witch go back to my first point.
Asura.Ina
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By Asura.Ina 2011-07-06 08:57:04
I personally think that if an abortion is happeneing it should be done within the first couple months. Ultimately I think the decision should rest with the parents though and not the government. Lets be fair here, there are alot of ways for a pregnancy to be ended and if they were baned by law women would simply turn to these methods. I'd say it is better where a woman can have it be medicly supervised rather then say throwing herself down a flight of stairs.
I may not always support it myself half the time (it disgusts me when woman use it as birth control rather then going on the pill or telling their man to wrap it up) but to be fair I don't have a uterus and have no problem admitting that my view could be different based off that fact.
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By Shiva.Garlend 2011-07-06 09:09:18
Well being someone that lost a child thanks to my psycho ex girlfriend causing herself to have a miscarriage, I'm fine with women having the choice. I just don't like that some women use it as a form of birth control. It all comes down to choice.
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-07-06 09:47:32
No, they're not.
Some people - men and women alike - however, don't do anything to prevent unwanted pregnancies, knowing that they always have that to fall back on.
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 09:48:19
I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now...
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 09:53:14
I guess one of the questions thats come up for me in the whole debate is, "Why would anyone feel guilt for getting an abortion if they are getting rid of something they don't feel is alive yet?"
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 09:56:44
Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now...
there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal.
think of it this way: would you want her raising a child?
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-07-06 09:56:58
Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now...
And we've all run across people that abuse the welfare system but that does not mean we must end welfare :| People will always abuse a system, but if we got rid of the system for that reason alone we will have done a great disservice to those that need it.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:06:02
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong?
And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great.
 Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 10:09:16
I don't think it's safe for the to-be mother's health abusing abortion. I think you're picking a case out of a million. I think the examples made above are good ones.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:17:32
Phoenix.Sehachan said: I don't think it's safe for the to-be mother's health abusing abortion. I think you're picking a case out of a million. I think the examples made above are good ones. You're missing my point. To me it seems that people agree that using abortion as birth control is iffy at best if not wrong. Jet and Xueye, who I believe are both pro-choice, both referred to it as an abuse of the system. My question is why is it considered an abuse if abortion at that stage is considered ok?
It just seems like such a delicate topic in that even Pro-choice people seem to have limitations on how abortion should be used. I'm just kind of curious is all as to what are the limitations. If its not alive or considered a life then why should we care at all if someone throws it away?
 Fairy.Spence
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By Fairy.Spence 2011-07-06 10:19:40
It's irresponsible, not abusing the system, IMO. Or do your taxes end up paying for them?
Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-07-06 10:21:06
Because pro or not it's still something extreme anyway.
People don't take plastic surgery for a scrape.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:22:11
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong?
And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great.
considering it's just a clump of cells that are growing in their body, not really.
But you have to look at it in the way of their insurance as to "abuse", I'd use an analogy here to some other medical condition but It would be picked apart, but basically there's a point when somebody does the same thing so many times to where enough is enough, but then you get into the denial of health-care problem in general again.
Also people don't really ever change unless they want to, so the likelihood of somebody changing just because they had a kid is unlikely.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:25:11
Fairy.Spence said: It's irresponsible, not abusing the system, IMO. Or do your taxes end up paying for them?
not so much taxes (as it's illegal for the government to pay for abortions via law) but insurance premiums, everytime somebody uses their insurance it cuts into the bottom line of the company it's with, which they spread the cost to the customer base at large. Hence the reason why they made it a mandate that everyone needs to have health insurance, because by law you cannot be denied treatment, so by law you should pay in.
Unfortunately what we pay into is corporations that want to make money off us instead of a system that's in our best interest, but hey you find a way to fix that and yeah...
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:25:26
Phoenix.Sehachan said: Because pro or not it's still something extreme anyway.
People don't take plastic surgery for a scrape.
some do...but it's usually paid privately
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:25:40
Fairy.Spence said: It's irresponsible, not abusing the system, IMO. Or do your taxes end up paying for them? As far as I'm aware tax dollars do go into the clinics but none of that money is to be used for providing abortions.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:30:00
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong? And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great. considering it's just a clump of cells that are growing in their body, not really. But you have to look at it in the way of their insurance as to "abuse", I'd use an analogy here to some other medical condition but It would be picked apart, but basically there's a point when somebody does the same thing so many times to where enough is enough, but then you get into the denial of health-care problem in general again. Also people don't really ever change unless they want to, so the likelihood of somebody changing just because they had a kid is unlikely. So your problem with it stems more from the point of insurance coverage and bottom lines than the actual act of the abortion?
Bahamut.Josseppi
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By Bahamut.Josseppi 2011-07-06 10:33:05
How about a 3 strike program.
1st one is ok,
2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices
3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it.
By Linald 2011-07-06 10:36:01
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13982031
Free cars for everyone!
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:36:10
Phoenix.Sehachan said: Because pro or not it's still something extreme anyway. People don't take plastic surgery for a scrape. People jam Botox into their face to remove a wrinkle... If i'm not mistaken botox isn't very healthy for ya and if used incorrectly can be fatal. Now yes I know there are some medicines like that but this is not for medical purposes at all and you can live without it.
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By Bismarck.Bloodbathboy 2011-07-06 10:36:19
This is a tough question!! Personally, I think it's up to the people involved.
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-07-06 10:37:28
Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong?
And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great.
considering it's just a clump of cells that are growing in their body, not really.
But you have to look at it in the way of their insurance as to "abuse", I'd use an analogy here to some other medical condition but It would be picked apart, but basically there's a point when somebody does the same thing so many times to where enough is enough, but then you get into the denial of health-care problem in general again.
Also people don't really ever change unless they want to, so the likelihood of somebody changing just because they had a kid is unlikely.
I have no idea how the whole thing turned out, or if the person found another doctor, but are you thinking about something along the lines of:
A patient goes to the doctor. Doctor says, you have lung cancer. Patient says, let's fix this. Doctor says, step 1 is stop smoking. Patient says no, try something else. Doctor says, sorry, I can't really help you if you're not going to help yourself.
That sort of thing?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2011-07-06 10:37:54
Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2011-07-06 10:39:29
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Jetackuu said: Lakshmi.Flavin said: I would agree that the majority do not use it as a form of birth control but I have run across a woman who has had 8 now... there's always abusers of a system, and until they're the norm it's not a big deal. think of it this way: would you want her raising a child? Well that's my thing though... If we truly have come to a consensus as to when life begins or "personhood" begins, then as long as someone got an abortion before the agreed upon time then there should never really be a problem right? I guess my question is, can you abuse the system if you aren't doing something wrong? And to answer your question probably not. but you never know how people will change when they have a child, there are always those that you think would be great that are terrible and terrible that are great. considering it's just a clump of cells that are growing in their body, not really. But you have to look at it in the way of their insurance as to "abuse", I'd use an analogy here to some other medical condition but It would be picked apart, but basically there's a point when somebody does the same thing so many times to where enough is enough, but then you get into the denial of health-care problem in general again. Also people don't really ever change unless they want to, so the likelihood of somebody changing just because they had a kid is unlikely. So your problem with it stems more from the point of insurance coverage and bottom lines than the actual act of the abortion?
why would I have a problem with somebody removing a clump of cells from their body?
to me it's no different than having a cyst removed.
However the end results are different so in practice it has to be treated different.
Best option, it's fine the way it is, short of it being shunned by people who are ignorant.
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By Bismarck.Bloodbathboy 2011-07-06 10:41:27
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure. And a ton of estrogen shots for years!!
Fairy.Spence
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By Fairy.Spence 2011-07-06 10:42:48
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Bahamut.Josseppi said: How about a 3 strike program. 1st one is ok, 2nd one is accompanied with a barrage of information about safe-sex practices 3rd one comes with a hysterectomy... if you haven't figured it out by then the rest of us our cleaning out the gene pool by taking you out of it. You can't take away a woman's right to reproduce if she wants to. Not to mention a hysterectomy is an invasive procedure.
That's the thing :/
I couldn't predict all the ramifications of it, but I wish there were some sort of screening process for procreation.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2011-07-06 10:45:24
Lakshmi.Flavin said: Phoenix.Sehachan said: I don't think it's safe for the to-be mother's health abusing abortion. I think you're picking a case out of a million. I think the examples made above are good ones. You're missing my point. To me it seems that people agree that using abortion as birth control is iffy at best if not wrong. Jet and Xueye, who I believe are both pro-choice, both referred to it as an abuse of the system. My question is why is it considered an abuse if abortion at that stage is considered ok?
You know, I never thought of my reasoning behind that before.
I guess I used the wrong word. I have to think further on this. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
vs Kansas:
Kansas to Shut Down All but One Abortion Clinic Friday | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/kansas-shut-down-all-abortion-clinics-friday
Quote: This story has been updated below.
It's official. Every abortion provider in the state of Kansas has been denied a license to continue operating as of July 1. As we reported last week, strict new state laws put in place this month threatened to close the remaining three abortion clinics in Kansas. The staff of one of these facilities, a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park, initially thought their operation could survive the strict new standards. But on Thursday afternoon, Planned Parenthood announced that the Overland Park clinic has thus far been denied a license to continue operating—effectively cutting off access to legal abortion in the entire state.
The new law, which takes effect Friday, establishes new standards for abortion providers—standards apparently designed to make compliance difficult. The rules require changes to the size and number of rooms, compel clinics to have additional supplies on hand, and even mandate room temperatures for the facilities. Given that the rules were released less than two weeks before clinics were expected to be in compliance, many providers knew they wouldn't be able to obtain a license to continue operating. The laws, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or TRAP laws, are an increasingly common legislative maneuver to limit access to abortion by redering it tough, if not impossible, for providers to comply.
With today's announcement that the Overland Park clinic was denied a license, Kansas becomes the first state to effectively make the legally protected right to obtain abortion services moot. One clinic in Kansas has already filed suit against the new rules, and a hearing on that suit is planned for Friday. Planned Parenthood is also expected to sue. The clinics are also expected to seek an injunction to block the law from being enforced. UPDATE: Planned Parenthood has filed suit. They are seeking an emergency injunction to allow their clinic to remain open while the lawsuit is pending.
"The women of Kansas waiting on their scheduled procedures will pay the immediate price for this outrageous and flagrant exertion of the radical GOP’s legislative muscle under the Brownback administration," said Kansas NOW in a statement Thursday, referring to conservative Republican Gov. Sam Brownback. "The freedom and right to legal healthcare has been denied to the women of Kansas."
UPDATE: In a statement issued Thursday evening, Peter Brownlie, president of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri, seemed to hold out some hope that its clinic could still obtain a license to continue operating, even as the organization sought an injuction to block the law from taking effect. "We have been targeted in this bill and Kansas women are the ones who will suffer if their health care is taken away," said Brownlie. "This is radical, extreme government intrusion into private health care."
UPDATE 5:45 PM EST THURSDAY: The Associated Press is reporting that the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, after initially denying a license to Planned Parenthood, has now changed their mind. Stay tuned for more updates. PP said inspectors were back at the clinic Thursday reevaluating it, after earlier this week indicating that they would not be able to obtain one.
UPDATE 6:08 PM EST THURSDAY: Planned Parenthood just announced that the health department has, in fact, decided to grant it a license to continue operating. The PP clinic in Overland Park will remain open. "Notwithstanding that the regulations are burdensome and unnecessary, the findings of the inspection indicate what we have known and said throughout this process: Planned Parenthood operates with the highest standards of patient care and has rigorous safety procedures in place," Brownlie said.
UPDATE 7:15 PM EST FRIDAY: A federal judge in Kansas City has blocked the new abortion clinic regulations from taking effect.
Kansas Judge Blocks Abortion Clinic Regs | Mother Jones
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/07/kansas-judge-blocks-abortion-clinic-regs
Quote: A judge in Kansas has blocked the state's strict new regulations on abortion providers from taking effect, a move that will allow all three clinics in the state to continue offering services, the Kansas City Star reports.
On Friday afternoon, U.S District Judge Carlos Murguia granted a request from two clinics—Aid for Women in Kansas City and the Center for Women's Health in Overland Park—to grant temporary relief from the new rules, which took effect July 1. The clinics were denied a license to continue operating after the state issued new rules on June 17 that would have required both clinics to make major changes to their facilities. A third clinic, owned by Planned Parenthood, was granted a license to continue operating on Thursday.
The injunction will remain in place until the court hears the formal challenge to the state's regulations.
"This is a tremendous victory for women in Kansas and against the underhanded efforts of anti-choice politicians to shut down abortion providers in the state," said Center for Reproductive Rights president Nancy Northup, which joined with the clinics in filing the legal challenge to the law, in a statement Friday evening. "The facts were clear—this licensing process had absolutely nothing to do with patient health or safety and everything to do with political shenanigans."
The Kansas legislature passed a new law in April creating a new designation for abortion providers under the state's licensing system, and directed the Department of Health and Environment to issue new rules. The department issued 36-pages of rules on June 17 (though the clinics did not receive copies until June 20), mandating things like the size of waiting and recovery rooms, the number of bathrooms, and the required temperatures for each room in the facility. Clinic owners argued that it was impossible to meet the new standards, given that they were released just two weeks before the clinics were required to comply. Moreover, they argued, the rules had little to do with protecting patients and were designed to shut down the clinics.
This type of law, often called "targeted regulation of abortion providers," or "TRAP" laws, isn't exactly new or unique, but Kansas' would have gone farther than others in actually shutting down abortion providers.
Kate Sheppard covers energy and environmental politics in Mother Jones' Washington bureau. For more of her stories, click here. She Tweets here. Get Kate Sheppard's RSS feed.
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