Holy Thread Batman! You guys stayed up that late talking about this? Just on an odd topic how many people posting in here have kids? (Just for my own knowledge)
I'd say it's a ridiculous argument to claim that humans need to "prove" supernatural beings exist. I'd also say it's equally ridiculous to claim that non-religious humans have a responsibility to "disprove" the existence of supernatural beings.
"Holy books" do not prove the existence of a god.
So-called "miracles" do not prove the existence of a god.
Earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters (most certainly!) do not prove the existence of a god.
Likewise, fossils do not disprove the existence of a god.
Evolution does not disprove the existence of a god.
So, why do we argue for or against these things?
It's highly likely that the existence of supernatural beings will *NEVER* be proven or disproved.
That said, you might ask, so what the hell is your point then Elana?
Well, I believe that humans have a responsibility to question tradition. While tradition can be beneficial (for example, families gathering for mealtimes, which encourages communication and bonding), tradition can also be harmful to society (for example, American schools still adhering to a schedule that was designed to give adolescents afternoons and summers off to "work on the farm" during the 19th century).
Modern religion is our civilization's greatest tragedy and eyesore, neatly packaged in "tradition" to make it appear beneficial. I can not think of any other cultural force that has been more directly influential in bloody wars, prejudicial inquisitions, tyrannical government reigns, and general reinforcement of inter-cultural hatred throughout the last 2000 years of history.
And yet why does religion still exist despite all the havoc it has plagued civilization with? ... simple: tradition, with a side-dish of basic human fear/paranoia.
So, when I ask the reader/viewer here in this forum to consider non-theism as a better way of life, I do so earnestly, without nearly as much judgement as you probably might think.
Religious life isn't "bad" or "wrong". It's just that a non-theist life is *better*. Better for the individual, and for civilization as a whole.
That's my message. I don't care if you believe in gods, but I respect you a *whole* lot more if you're brave enough to question your religion and its tenets. And if you're willing and able to renounce religious practice, you're advancing civilization. If you choose to cling to religious practice, you're weighing civilization down.
You had me all the way up to the last paragraph where you just bashed people who believe in religion after trying to stay impartial =/ Everything before that was great though. Also for my comment before I left work about taking offense to calling Religion believing in 'Magic.' I never said you can't call it that, only that I take offense in it. You assumed I said I don't want you saying it. I would get into my belief system about why I take offense but you'd just bash it as you don't believe in it anyway. As for 'atheism is not a belief system' I lol'd.
Quote:
be·lieve/biˈlēv/Verb
1. Accept (something) as true
Do you not accept it as true that there is no greater being that created us? This is a mild jump from this definition but still...
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Why? did you miss this part?
Quote:
That's like asking what accomplishments the disbelief in Thor has done for humanity.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Why? did you miss this part?
Quote:
That's like asking what accomplishments the disbelief in Thor has done for humanity.
Atheism is the belief that there is no god, wth does thor have anything to do with this argument?
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Why? did you miss this part?
Quote:
That's like asking what accomplishments the disbelief in Thor has done for humanity.
Atheism is the belief that there is no god, wth does thor have anything to do with this argument?
It means you are currently lacking in cognitive reasoning since you can't connect the dots.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Why? did you miss this part?
Quote:
That's like asking what accomplishments the disbelief in Thor has done for humanity.
Atheism is the belief that there is no god, wth does thor have anything to do with this argument?
But just to humor this kind of idea.
Can you provide an example of something Theism has done for humanity.
Since you disregarded my example with a list of people you may not use individuals to support your argument.
I personally don't think you can prove it well either way with the constrains you've placed on the argument, but if you can do something that would help your argument.
Cerberus.Irishlass said:
What if we don't like to be told what we should and should not believe in?
Atheist are just as creepy to me as some religious ppl
Why do people have to classify them self as one or the other?
Humans by nature have the tendency to categorize,classify, and redefine the world around them.
We are prone to it by nature, to organize chaos so to speak.
When I was choosing my name at the character selection screen I had given it no thought prior and was stumped. I have no clue where Inuyasha jumped into my head but I asked my friends (we used to all play at the same guys house for some reason) if that name was free they said no. Instead I came up with Inuyushi as almost a joke to freak them out. With Inuyushi I could tell them I got the name Inuyasha (which meant the player with the name currently would've deleted his account) and they would start to read the name I-n-u-y (oh crap!) but then get to u-s-h-i and Bazinga~
So yes my name was derived from Inuyasha but it is slightly different. Ive grown quite fond of it over the years even though I never watched more than like 10 episodes of the TV show. I really prefer Bleach :D
And there you go. Spoiled for people who don't really care.
I'd say it's a ridiculous argument to claim that humans need to "prove" supernatural beings exist. I'd also say it's equally ridiculous to claim that non-religious humans have a responsibility to "disprove" the existence of supernatural beings.
"Holy books" do not prove the existence of a god.
So-called "miracles" do not prove the existence of a god.
Earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters (most certainly!) do not prove the existence of a god.
Likewise, fossils do not disprove the existence of a god.
Evolution does not disprove the existence of a god.
So, why do we argue for or against these things?
It's highly likely that the existence of supernatural beings will *NEVER* be proven or disproved.
That said, you might ask, so what the hell is your point then Elana?
Well, I believe that humans have a responsibility to question tradition. While tradition can be beneficial (for example, families gathering for mealtimes, which encourages communication and bonding), tradition can also be harmful to society (for example, American schools still adhering to a schedule that was designed to give adolescents afternoons and summers off to "work on the farm" during the 19th century).
Modern religion is our civilization's greatest tragedy and eyesore, neatly packaged in "tradition" to make it appear beneficial. I can not think of any other cultural force that has been more directly influential in bloody wars, prejudicial inquisitions, tyrannical government reigns, and general reinforcement of inter-cultural hatred throughout the last 2000 years of history.
And yet why does religion still exist despite all the havoc it has plagued civilization with? ... simple: tradition, with a side-dish of basic human fear/paranoia.
So, when I ask the reader/viewer here in this forum to consider non-theism as a better way of life, I do so earnestly, without nearly as much judgement as you probably might think.
Religious life isn't "bad" or "wrong". It's just that a non-theist life is *better*. Better for the individual, and for civilization as a whole.
That's my message. I don't care if you believe in gods, but I respect you a *whole* lot more if you're brave enough to question your religion and its tenets. And if you're willing and able to renounce religious practice, you're advancing civilization. If you choose to cling to religious practice, you're weighing civilization down.
Elana, you are totally on the ball this thread. You can haz +10 interwebs.
Seriously, I think you've made multiple valid points here, and will take what you've said into consideration in any future discussion over this subject.
I'm with whoever it was that called you out on that last paragraph too, however. Not every religious person weighs society down. There are many religious people that help advance science and technology, and many others that do nothing but help people in need. Neither of those seem to be holding us back as a society. The converse can be said for non religious. There are quite a few people in that community that hinder societies advancement. That's a trait that isn't exclusive to either side.
tl;dr version: Both theistic and atheistic communities have people who help better and advance society, and people who do the opposite. It is a human trait, not an ideology.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
When I was choosing my name at the character selection screen I had given it no thought prior and was stumped. I have no clue where Inuyasha jumped into my head but I asked my friends (we used to all play at the same guys house for some reason) if that name was free they said no. Instead I came up with Inuyushi as almost a joke to freak them out. With Inuyushi I could tell them I got the name Inuyasha (which meant the player with the name currently would've deleted his account) and they would start to read the name I-n-u-y (oh crap!) but then get to u-s-h-i and Bazinga~
So yes my name was derived from Inuyasha but it is slightly different. Ive grown quite fond of it over the years even though I never watched more than like 10 episodes of the TV show. I really prefer Bleach :D
And there you go. Spoiled for people who don't really care.
/debate on
See it wasn't so hard! :D
You silly half demon you!
"Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied in detail by scholars of religion in order to obtain relevant perspectives on the relationship between religion and science. He believed in God, the God of Spinoza, but not in a personal God, a belief which he criticized. He also criticized atheism."
Apparently no theists ever felt threatened enough to make a list of all the people in their religion who do anything in the scientific field. Not that I found anyway.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
Lets see
Robert Wilson, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates
Sylph.Systematicchaos said:
Taken off the wiki, to stir the pot a little:
"Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied in detail by scholars of religion in order to obtain relevant perspectives on the relationship between religion and science. He believed in God, the God of Spinoza, but not in a personal God, a belief which he criticized. He also criticized atheism."
Apparently no theists ever felt threatened enough to make a list of all the people in their religion who do anything in the scientific field. Not that I found anyway.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
Gates was interviewed November 1995 on PBS by David Frost. Below is the transcript with minor edits.
Frost: Do you believe in the Sermon on the Mount?
Gates: I don’t. I’m not somebody who goes to church on a regular basis. The specific elements of Christianity are not something I’m a huge believer in. There’s a lot of merit in the moral aspects of religion. I think it can have a very very positive impact.
Frost: I sometimes say to people, do you believe there is a god, or do you know there is a god? And, you’d say you don’t know?
Gates: In terms of doing things I take a fairly scientific approach to why things happen and how they happen. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, but I think religious principles are quite valid.
It’s interesting that he thinks “religious principles are quite valid,” but he isn’t a believer in the Sermon on the Mount. Usually, when an irreligious non-Christian recognizes any validity to Christianity, it’s usually through some of the principles in the Sermon on the Mount. I wonder what Bill Gates had in mind?
Gates was profiled in a January 13, 1996 TIME magazine cover story. Here are some excerpts compiled by the Drudge Report:
“Isn’t there something special, perhaps even divine, about the human soul?” interviewer Walter Isaacson asks Gates “His face suddenly becomes expressionless,” writes Isaacson, “his squeaky voice turns toneless, and he folds his arms across his belly and vigorously rocks back and forth in a mannerism that has become so mimicked at MICROSOFT that a meeting there can resemble a round table of ecstatic rabbis.”
“I don’t have any evidence on that,” answers Gates. “I don’t have any evidence of that.”bill gates
He later states, “Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very efficient. There’s a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning.”
So, Bill Gates doesn’t go to church on a regular basis, doesn’t believe much in the specific elements of Christianity, doesn’t think there is any evidence for souls, doesn’t know that there is any god, and doesn’t consider religion very efficient. Bill Gates is definitely irreligious and is definitely agnostic. He may or may not be an atheist, but he is also definitely not the sort of person whom religious believers have in mind when they claim that religion is necessary for charitable work. Bill Gates is thus an effective demonstration that charity is possible without religion playing any role whatsoever.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
Lets see
Robert Wilson, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates
Those aren't groups, those are rich people looking to lessen their tax burden.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
Lets see
Robert Wilson, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates
Those are individual people, Talking about groups
Groups are comprised of multiple individuals?
Do you want foundations?
Do you want the long form birth certificate too?
Jesus F**cking Christ.
If you want to argue to that extent any organization that doesn't have a religious foundation by default can be considered to be an atheistic organization as long as religion isn't an aspect of their charity gathering.
So with this any charities that aren't through christian channels by default can be considered to be "atheistic" charities in that mind.
this is a ridiculous argument and you keep on drawing lines in the sand.
@Vinvv, im not talking about single person accomplishments, im talking about atheist as a whole, and also you can list all of that stuff atheist have accomplished, but religion has still accomplished alot more
Name me one thing religion has accomplished.
I see alot of religious charity groups that help out people(even though some are probably corrupt). I don't see any (or at least probably not that many) groups of atheist people helping out the needy.
Lets see Robert Wilson, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates
Sylph.Systematicchaos said:
Taken off the wiki, to stir the pot a little: "Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied in detail by scholars of religion in order to obtain relevant perspectives on the relationship between religion and science. He believed in God, the God of Spinoza, but not in a personal God, a belief which he criticized. He also criticized atheism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_religious_views I just picked a random name and searched. Apparently no theists ever felt threatened enough to make a list of all the people in their religion who do anything in the scientific field. Not that I found anyway.
I just quoted wiki 'scro. list of atheistslist of christians so your little bolded part becomes a non-point. you must not like to search very deeply.
Not while I'm at work no. I likely could, and if I really cared that deeply about the topic I would.
Edit: This is of course not to say that you do, but I'm just bored at work running my access queries and really have nothing better to do right now.
