Incoming PLD Adjustments

The melee split is irrelevant (.8/.8 cancels out).

So you're just comparing .75*1.95 vs .55*2.25, which is 1.45 vs 1.24.

You're also looking at the %s wrong.

If .25*1.5 = .3750 (representation of your crit rate times crit damage), then dividing that by a lower number will net a "larger value" (which is what you did). In this case, the larger "crit damage contribution" is 1.45 (from GH/RR/Apoc), not 1.24 (SS/RR).

You need to reverse your math:

120 is 20% increase of 100. But I wouldn't find that out by doing 100/120 (that equals .83). I find that out by doing 1-DiffAB (1-120/100) = 20%.

GH/RR/Apoc.

When the player base insists that non-tank jobs are tank jobs and SE just gives up on proving the opposite cause people are stupid PLD will never be THE tank its supposed to be...in fact..PLD and SAM are really only supposed to be tank jobs....and when the game first started WAR

When the game first started out, PLD, MNK, SAM and WAR were suppose to be tanking jobs. Its why WAR and SAM AF had +enm on it. MNK was expected to be a tank due to high HP and somewhat decent tanking skills.

Yus...then some JP did some amazing utsusemi and now we have NINtank...

or rather: after JP did some awesome utsuing and then SE quit trying to prove its not a tank and gave up.....

anyway....on topic...I think we do need an enmity overhaul...it would only benefeit PLD to have a higher enmity cap aswell as other tank jobs so they can actually do their jobs.....damage is nice but we shouldnt have to do uberdamage to keep hate off everyone...

Cover: Coverga? It would be interesting to have a Cover Aura like someone said that protects everyone.

Emblem: definately needs a timer reduction....and i hope the damage bonus is good...otherwise it wont matter...

How do we define tank jobs? NIN, MNK, DRK, SAM, DNC, THF, and BLU can all function as DDs or tanks as desired. Imagine any of these jobs trying to cotank with a PLD if you just raise PLD's hate cap. Similarly, imagine the results if you raised the hate cap for all these jobs and they tried to act solely as DDs in a certain fight.

Defining tanks based on "what SE intended" or "what the playerbase made them into" is basically irrelevant. Certain jobs have abilities that make them effective tanks in certain situations. That's all that matters until SE alters those criteria (RDM nerf sup); pidgeonholing them on any other criteria is laughable.

im not saying that you should raise it for DD jobs that act as tanks...just for tank jobs period. or what where INTENDED to be tank jobs....but yea...irrelevent :/

anyway: if PLD is to become the top mob target again...its going to take serious work/reworking to do so....which might lose subscribers...which they are going to avoid.

So you're saying PLD SAM DRK NIN MNK DNC THF and BLU should all have their hate caps raised? Spare me the semantics argument of "DDs that act as tanks". They're holding hate and mitigating damage, therefore they are functioning as tanks.

but if they are DD's that are just mitigating damage...then they arent tank jobs....they are DD's...what i mean is a job that is a tank..not just a DD/support that is suddenly tanking because they DD'd too much and ripped hate. The hate cap increase should be for those jobs whose purpouse is to tank and is not some converted DD that is used to tank.

I dont mean Evatanks (DNC THF NIN) which is a term created by the player base and the jobs where converted into tanks

i dont mean DD/spike DD that rip hate (DRK BLU THF) that tank because they rip hate and you cant get hate on them so they survive by mitigating damage til hate is ripped off by the tank or another DD

i mean TANKS (PLD SAM MNK WAR) that are DESIGNED to tank and have abilities specificly suited for that purpouse and where originally entered as tanks.

if they(the tanks) rip trying to DD then they rip...that is what they are suppised to do..HOWEVER you shouldnt have to DD to hold or regain hate it should automaticly come naturally that you (the tank) rip easy when you dont have hate.

Psst. By that definition, PLD can be considered a DD. DON'T TELL ANYONE.

Evasion is just another form of damage mitigation, you're playing at semantics again.

DRK has non-damaging hate tools. BLU has a ton of non-damaging hate tools, the best in the game now that RDM got nerfed. Accomplice and Collaborator can be used not just to take somebody else off the hate list, but to rip hate for the THF to tank.

That's an issue of mechanics, not job choice.

I edited that last line like a second before you posted btw :X


EVA: it doesnt mean your a tank though...PLD doesnt have eva,,,but thats because its not supposed to evade....Yes, eva is ment to mitigate damage,but, just because you evade does not make you tank.

DRK: Last Resort and such spike hate....and its ment to DD...and it Spikes their DMG...which is why they are spike DD.

BLU: can solo because of those non-hate tools...which is pretty much what they are for. In a pt im not going to use actinic burst to try to tank because im the DD...not the tank...and if i occasionally rip and need to survive...thats what a DD does.

THF: steal hate then give back to the tank...yes, because people made it an evatank you CAN use accomplice/collaberator to get enmity...however, the main purpouse of those is to control enmity to better facilitate hate...not to tank...and actually..what your supposed to do is steal hate then put it back on the tank.

hate mechanics: thats why they need to be changed.

and what are semantics when the meaning of everything has been changed from what its supposed to mean....

EDIT!: the DD thing: i did say that you shouldnt have to DD to gain hate...and i ment damage mitigation for the DD as a way to not die while hate is taken off you so you can survive to DD again.

i don't think you understand what tanking is.

i do....however "tanking" and being a "tank" are two different things...the "tank"s job is to do "tanking" however anyone can be "tanking" but they are not "tank".

wasnt this debated/mathed last month when they removed the +crit dmg cap?
I think it was proven that any empyrean inside abyssea with a crit ws should always be going apoc/rr/ss.
the SS's crit dmg also applies to odd aftermath.

Are you familiar with the phrase "specious argument"?

It does depend on cRatio but mob level/def would need to be pretty high for GH to win. I'm getting back around to that, got distracted by the "it's only a tank because I say so" argument.

. specious argument - an argument that appears good at first view but is really fallacious
argument, statement - a fact or assertion offered as evidence that something is true; "it was a strong argument that his hypothesis was true"
vicious circle - an argument that assumes that which is to be proved
straw man, strawman - a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
special pleading - an argument that ignores all unfavorable evidence

which it is not.

blue is not blue, because i said so.

but this isnt the case....but yes...its because you said so

You're arguing that the ability to tank has no bearing on whether or not one is in fact a tank. Therefore, the only remaining definition of a tank is whether or not you say it is a tank. It is precisely the case.

no, because they arent. you are in fact saying stuff is used for this stuff and this is because i said it was. when it isnt.

no, you're just making up your own definition of tank.

I did the math at the top of this page:
Nightfrye you seem to be advocating RR/SS over GH/RR the most, care to elaborate?

Everything I've seen (math, BG, conversations) has pointed to GH/RR and that's the same combination I'm getting from DPS calcs.

No, because i know what a tank is.

You however, are making up what a tank is to best fit your arguement and to effectively contradict what a tank is.

anyway, im gunna stop derailing...and go play the last remnant....after Ninja Assasin goes off....

Less semantic arguments based on people's perspectives and more debate on correct atma usage as pDif changes.

not a numbers person so i cant help...i use GH + RR + Apoc mostly though when im on THF and BLU and pretty much whenever i need crit+ or triple attacks and reraise....but i dont have sanguine scythe yet :/

You're right I didn't

A-B/A*100
The original values are showing increases over no atma, not versus each other.
2.0 to 3.0 pdif using the 70D weapon is a 50% increase (140 - 210). Natural rate is 25%.
.25*1.50 = 0.375

With RR and GH, your rate is .75, and your crit damage is 70*3.0*1.30 = 273DMG. 273-140/273*100 48.71% increase in damage over original rate.

SS/RR is 55% rate, 50% DMG.
210*1.50 = 315. 55.55% increase in crit damage over no atma

So .25 and 1.50 are our old rates/crit dmg increase
.55 and 1.55 for SS/RR
.75 and 1.48 for RR/GH

(.25*1.50) = 0.375 and SS/RR is (.55*1.55) = 0.8525
0.8525 - 0.375 / 0.8525 *100 = 56% increase in overall damage.

0.375 original rate and GH/RR is .75*1.48 = 1.11
1.11-0.375/1.11*100 = 66% increase in overall DMG

So GH is higher. The reason melee split comes into consideration is because CDC has it's own crit rate, devaluing what you get from GH, but I don't know the exact split so I'll let you do that. They aren't really all to far apart. If I did something wrong let me know.

Btw, isn't SS actually 30%? I recall people originally thought it was 20% because of the old crit dmg cap at 50% and pairing with RR, but if you set it alone it actually gave you 30%.

And just personal observation from using CDC outside abyssea, does anyone else think the crit bonus only applies to first hit on it? Just doesn't feel QUITE as consistent as like, Hi and Ukko's.

I dunno, if it is then it closes the gap significantly.

30% would make them closer, but GH should still win, just by a lot less.