Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-09-22 10:13:00
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Odin.Hitoseijuro said: »
Phoenix.Gustavve said: »
I'm trying to parse the block rate and dmg recuded on Aegis/Ochain but defensive detail is not populating. I'm not engaging nor killing any of them. Does this have something to do with dual boxing? I'm using the memlocs and parsing from ram. Can someone help with this? Right now I'm using DC crawlers in Rolan (s).
Just send Kine a pm about it and see if he might know what you are doing wrong, or if its a known bug. PM>>>>>> Motenten[Fenrir]
The character will not show up until you make an action such as use a JA or cast a spell. Once you do all the data that was parsed will show up again. You can even restart an old parse and take an action and then you will show up on the defense details. Martel ran in to this issue while doing testing as well. The data is in there, it just doesn't show up or link to anything when a char does nothing.
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 10:21:32
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I'm I doing something wrong or is that a 56% block rate vs DC? Anyone have a level 90 to test if its borked from 90 -> 95?
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-22 10:30:20
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I haven't checked the block numbers in there yet, but I wouldn't be suprised at all if that was accurate.

I recently did a series of shield tests vs EM monitors in grauberg(At lvl 90). At baseskill+ merits with a size 3 shield(koenig) I had a 45% block rate.

So that would put Aegis at a 10% higher base block rate than a Kite shield. Which sounds reasonable to me. Assuming this was at base skill for your lvl anyway? Could use some more info on your test conditions. Skill, actually mob lvl, etc.

Shield block rate is far, far harder to cap than most ppl realize. And Ochain is being seriously underestimated on higher lvl content. Not that Aegis isn't amazing, but it irritates the hell outta me when I see ppl assume a ~70% block rate on stuff like VM when they compare teh two recently. /rant off.
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 10:46:10
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Luckily my mule had a Koenig shield on him so I could swap shield without changing mob or positioning. I'll do 3000 hits with 90 ochain after the koenig.


I'm using some shield gear, I'm at 429 which I expected to cap vs DC. I'm using 2 DC crawlers, not sure exact level at the moment.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-22 10:54:56
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Ok, so. Running your numbers through my Shield block spreadsheet came out to..

Block Rate 59.59%

I believe Neo's test had a 70% rate with +30 skill gear vs a DC(lvl 80) mob at 90. Without knowing the exact lvl difference it's hard to say if those numbers are odd or normal.

Also from your numbers.. DMG-/block: -86.1%

Were you using creed hands? I think the dmg reduction on block at 90 was 80% 'ish w/ creed+2. So either we got a large variance going or Aegis got more DMG reduction or PLD got more Shield def bonus. mmm, needs moar testing. XD
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 11:01:15
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I was using hands. And yea I just got done plugging the numbers on dmg reduction on blocks.


I'll do Ochain to test for the SDB trait next.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-22 11:02:53
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The more testing I do, the more I realize just how hard it is to actually cap block rate. I mean, you'd think you'd be capped on a DC... but..

On those tests I did versus even match I added +51(total 420 lvl 90) skill, and only went from 45% to 57% block rate.

You'd think with that much skill you could at least cap against an EM... <,<
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-09-22 11:23:59
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
So either we got a large variance going or Aegis got more DMG reduction or PLD got more Shield def bonus. mmm, needs moar testing. XD

Friend's doing some tests and noticed a higher damage reduction on blocks, around ~90%, which is either a boost to Aegis (which makes sense since weapons got a proc rate increase) or a higher Shield Def Bonus trait was added.

I'll try (or someone else can) parse later to try determine how much of a damage reduction SDB is unless someone already knows.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-22 11:41:32
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Since figuring SDB out requires testing at lvl ~76 to compare to lvl 90 and 95, I only have a very small lvl ~76 sample. (Finding a sync was a pain in the ***, and my test mobs about shredded me while sync'd. About 800 hits, which isn't going to be all that accurate.

But from that test, I had SDB at about 5.5% additional DMG reduction.

If someone with a lvl ~76 PLD(or a sync) wants to do a larger test sample that'd be great.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-09-22 11:52:02
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Pld is currently 76, could borrow mine if you want or wait for me to be home. Either as a sync or just using it.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-09-22 12:02:39
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Couldn't you just work with out with a regular shield at 90, or am I overlooking something?

Base size+(DEF/2) = DMG reduction.

Koenig would be Size 3, so 50%+(22/2) = 61% expected reduction. So any further reduction would be SDB kicking in. Unless this has changed.
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 12:36:42
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Koenig Shield,all variables the same as above test.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-22 12:47:02
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You know... you could.

I think the reason I forgot about that, is cause when I first tested shield dmg-, I did it with Ochain. For which the shield size's base dmg- isn't known.

Kinda hard to find out too, since Ochain's lvl 90 and you'd already have SDB. And lvl syncing Ochain would change it's def, altering it's dmg reduction. Although I suppose you could account for that.

Once I have a more accurate value for SDB, I can just subtract that from Ochain's dmg reduction then account for the def to find the base.

I wish I'd realized all that sooner. derp. I'll go back over some older parses, then use those to determine SDB for 90 more accurately. Then I'll have Ochain numbers and can test 95 SDB with ochain.

Should get normal shield SDB for 95 too, to determine if Aegis/Ochain just got DMG- bonuses, or if it's actually SDB..
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 13:10:42
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With Aegis and Koenig being within 3% I doubt Aegis got any boost at 90.


Palisade is very significant. The first use I got 26/27 block rate on the same mob I was getting 56%
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-22 13:17:06
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Anyone recommend another mob to test on?
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By Blazed1979 2011-09-23 06:49:28
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Only had 92.4% block rate with Ochain vs Nidhogg @ Lv.90 with capped skill (native, merits, equip)
90sh % vs Tiamat - was hard to quantify for several reasons.
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-09-23 07:16:42
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Blazed1979 said: »
Only had 92.4% block rate with Ochain vs Nidhogg @ Lv.90 with capped skill (native, merits, equip) 90sh % vs Tiamat - was hard to quantify for several reasons.
Was Tiamat before or after the 95 level update. Either way Ochain is probably going to be around 88%-ish on VW could probably be 85% on the new VW tiers, idk what level they are though so it could still be high 80s or even low 90s still.

Ochain seems to suffer a minimal impact on blocking with mob levels vs Aegis which from what ppl are testing even on DCs, the blocking rate is horrible with 56%-60%(id expect atleast a 70% on exp and weak mobs vs 50s on NMs)
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-23 08:44:20
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I went back and added some skill and did 1500 hits. My block rate jumped up to 61-62% on those same mobs. You also have to consider that I wasn't using reprisal or Palisade. On those same mobs I was some like 71/74 blocks with palisade up. I'm going to go back and do some test using the same mobs keeping reprisal up with just whm haste and using palisade. I expect sub to mid 80's from that.


I ran to jorm last night trying solo it. I had a noticeably better block rate vs him than I did vs the dc crawlers. There was also the benefit of aegis blocks not giving him tp (0) vs ochain blocks (10~).
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-23 09:28:39
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There is still some inconsistency with block rate and level that we're seeing. It could be anomalous, or just the level difference (DC has a wide gap), but it is very curious.

I see shield skill kind of like evasion to be honest. You're not capping evasion against a DC with just 10-20 skill. The difference being that people can get a *** TON of evasion everywhere, and thus make it easier to cap out on higher stuff.

I do agree with Martel however that people comparing Aegis to Ochain simply based on block rates are silly to compare 70% to 100%, since you'll hardly ever get capped Aegis block rate on anything that's not 20 levels below you (and thus why the *** are you on Pld?). /nin, Palisade, and Reprisal do help though.

That and a sexy sexy Spell Interrupt set <3.
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-23 09:37:43
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Btw, Wiki has the Champion Cralwers listed at 93-94 lol. I was thinking those would be mid 80's.

I can open my old parses now. The one against the hiltroll pld parsed 80% after 100 hits. I forgot about the defense down and had to stop the parse.
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-09-23 12:59:59
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Does anyone know how exactly spell interruption rate down works besides the fact that if you had 102%, you would never get interrupted from physical hits? I've always assumed the percentage you had would be the actual chance of not being interrupted, but this doesn't seem to be the case...

I've been working on a spell interrupt set recently, and have 73% interrupt down total including merits. I did a simple parse on a Decent Challenge Duriumshell as Lv. 95 PLD/BLU with 160 blue magic skill. Blue magic skill was used in place of Ninjutsu to not only save shihei, but so I didn't use a higher skill level PLD already had, which would skew the overall result (due to higher success rate from higher skill). Out of 200 total casts, I was interrupted 147 times during midcast (I made sure that I was only hit once per cast, and that the hit occurred directly during midcast). Equipment remained static in spell interrupt set, and no gear swaps were used. This shows that I only had a 26.5% success rate in casting rather than the assumed 73% that I thought I would've had.

The data:
My job/level: PLD95/BLU47
160 Blue Magic skill

Mob: Duriumshell, Decent Challenge

Spell Interruption Down: 73% total

Total Casts: 200
Times interrupted: 147
Times not interrupted: 53
Chance of interruption: 73.5% (0.735)
Chance of no interruption: 26.5% (0.265)
 
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 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-23 13:48:56
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http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/82143-Spell-interruption-down-cap-and-Aquaveil-Tests?p=3098422&viewfull=1#post3098422

That post should help.

I must say thoough, Either Iron Will gives more than advertised or impatiens/Karagentsu/Knightly Earring gives more. I'm at 101% during rampart.I have used it plenty of times with swarms of mobs or my back turned/no shield block and I have never noticed and interrupt that was not accompanied by a knockback move.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-09-23 13:52:48
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I did some significant testing on blu/nin back at 75 when I was trying to go for a 102 SID build and I only had like 87% including merits and I got interpreted far more than expected. It's slightly annoying to test because to get accurate numbers you really need to have a mob only hit you once in the middle of your cast. If the hit is too far off to one side or the other then lag could account for the non-interrupt and more than one hit could interrupt anyway even if it did proc on one hit.

I would be very interested in seeing some accurate testing to find a pattern.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-09-23 14:08:56
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Phoenix.Gustavve said: »
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/82143-Spell-interruption-down-cap-and-Aquaveil-Tests?p=3098422&viewfull=1#post3098422

That post should help.

I must say thoough, Either Iron Will gives more than advertised or impatiens/Karagentsu/Knightly Earring gives more. I'm at 101% during rampart.I have used it plenty of times with swarms of mobs or my back turned/no shield block and I have never noticed and interrupt that was not accompanied by a knockback move.

What's your SID set look like? How many merits in IW and how many spell interruption merits?

Also are you casting utsu or a spell that you have a high base skill in?

The testing claims that "These tests also show that the base skill doesn't provide extra spell interruption." but depending on how the calculations are made that might not be the case. The only testing in this done on something with native skill was 3 trials using stoneskin which were 1 point below cap and then 2 above cap. There is enough data to claim that base skill is not additive with spell interruption rate but it doesn't prove that it has no effect.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-24 19:43:57
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Well we know that 100% SI will net you 100% actual Spell Interupt, regardless of the skill level of what you're casting.

That being said, the 3 factors that are apparently effective in determining interupt are:

SI% (merits, gear).
Skill level
Mob lvl or damage done.


There also may be a variability in interupt based on when you actually get hit (first and last 10% is very low interupt rate).

I don't really have the time to do long winded tests on skill level versus timing of hits versus mob level etc etc. But it's something to think about.

Also, has anyone done testing on 95 Aegis to see just where the MDT cap is now? I'll see about doing some tests with mine sometime this weekend if not.
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-25 19:06:33
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Also, has anyone done testing on 95 Aegis to see just where the MDT cap is now? I'll see about doing some tests with mine sometime this weekend if not.


I kinda rushed this since I didn't have a lot of time but I think its worthy of proving you can't hit 95% MDT
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-25 19:11:08
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
What's your SID set look like? How many merits in IW and how many spell interruption merits?

Also are you casting utsu or a spell that you have a high base skill in?


I used 4 DC crawlers along with merits (10%), 3 iron will merits (57%), impatiens(10%), knightly(9%), and Karagensu(15%). I had a staff equipped and in 5 stoneskins I never got interrupted. I decided to go back with enmity merits over the Spell interruption rate down merits so I use Valor breeches (10%) now.
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-09-25 19:29:35
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Phoenix.Gustavve said: »

Are you sure you have 25% in gear after accounting for rounding?
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-25 19:30:45
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Suggests an 897 or 898/1024 cap. Odd numbers, ever so slightly higher than the 87.5% value thrown around previously for a new hard cap which is precisely 896/1024. Not completely surprised that Aegis is subject to the global cap though.
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