Haste Vs. Dual Wield

Sorry.



True. This discussion is for those of us who wish to maximize our potential, which is what/why we play this game.

That's understandable. I too strive to be the best I can, be it via strategy, skill, tactics and gear alike. I just don't like to see ridiculous and lengthy formulas crammed down people's throats declaring which is more superior than the other, etc.

While it might seem that way to you, I find this thread enlightening to some degree. The problem is the discussion on what should/is being taken into account first, either haste+ or dual wield+

HAI PWNTEEF!!! (^^)/

^this if you fight bumblebees in sarutabaruta

This is a tough question. I looked at FFXI Calculator 3.04 for an answer.

At 454 Delay with 21% Haste and 40% Dual Wield, the end came to be 257.7818 Delay. Also, 22 hits for 100% TP.

Swap out pants for 454 Delay with 16% and 45% Dual Wield, at the end came to be 264.181. 23 hits for 100%.

Why? DW calculated to 46% (23% Job and 13% Gear) where haste was 15.63% (160/1024). While the more haste build brought DW to 32% (23% Job and 9% Gear) and haste was 20.51% (210/1024). What's happening is there's a diminishing effect on DW the higher it gets. All assuming FFXI Calculator 3.04 is correct.

Moar derail



Huh!? bumblebees in sarutabaruta (s) are level 15-17, dual wield is going to win so that you have a back-up hit in case you don't one shot them... Not quite sure wth you're talking about here <_<

But in response to someone on the previous page about blu/nin vs blu/???, there's very rare occasion to be on anything other than /nin or /thf. Any other SJ you use for blu is pretty much just going to be when you're trying to fill the role of another job. /thf has the potential to do quite a bit more spike damage by soloing light or darkness, as well as planting a little more hate onto the tank. However, pulling hate isn't ideal without utsu, and if you add 2 or 3 tp spamurais or other melee there's usually a good chance that they're going to *** up your SC's.

If you're on /nin, which I am most of the time, go ahead and dual wield. Your shadows should be plenty to keep you alive when you pull hate, so unless you're planning on actually tanking (and unless it's a thf/war/mnk/nin mob /nin tanking should be fine) then genbu's shield really doesn't have much use when you could be adding some tasty stats there instead. Not to mention, if you're low on mp and melee a little more instead of spamming spells, perdu/beast slayer or similar is going to give you considerably more damage than sword/shield.

For me, I'm blu/nin most of the time, if I'm going to be doing sky/sea gods I'm mainly on /thf because of the high DEF, which makes me a much more efficient DD.

Because of blu's low base stats, choosing a SJ like war for the extra STR is probably about as effective as choosing /nin and equipping Ifrit's Blade in your off hand. But utsusemi will keep you alive a lot better than cocoon + defender + genbu's shield against most mobs.

So Korpg, don't tell people how to play their jobs when you have no idea, you paid out most of the jobs in the game for ever going /nin when most of them actually do have good uses for /nin in certain situations (even BLM, if a blm/nin can kill a flan in the same amount of nukes as a blm/rdm, then wouldn't they be saving time and mp from not casting stoneskin and blink, and thus getting more exp/hour? Just a thought). You also say in your opening statement that pld should dual wield...

Take your own advice?

On the note of BLM/RDM vs BLM/NIN, how about this?

If you are soloing puddings, you would need Gravity to kite/nuke the mobs, since sleep sucks for them.

Go be BLU/NIN dual wield. Lower your TP by lowering your delay from the dual wield traits from /NIN. Doesn't matter to me, I just posted my view. I was going against dual wield in general for those types of jobs, not the sub. Sorry I didn't explain it to you fully...

PLD/NIN is a great job for tanking anything really, as long as your PLD/NIN knows what to do.

if you look at increasing your attack speed and therefore damage potential only (so ignoring the recast stuff haste offers and such), you are better off with the value that already is higher in total, for example:

you go with 40% dual wield and 12% haste on your gear, your leg slot is still empty and you wonder whether koga legs or byakko, you get a party and have a haste spell on you, the brd does min/mad. So you end up with <30% haste and 40% dual wield. For damage output the koga legs would increase your attack speed more than byakko in that case.
If you have say no suppanomimi, refuse to use af body and the brd is using double march or whatever so your total haste value beats the dual wield value, go with more haste.

Those calculations work taking into account dual wield and haste are used as equal multipliers in the attack speed formula.

About blu/nin blu/wtf... you can go blu/nin and still use genbu's shield along with your shadows if you aim for maximum survivability, there is no law that forces /nin to go dual wield stuff >_>

That was my point.

I always thought that Blus go /nin for the extra DoT from the extra sword and the added accuracy from Dual Wield (every 4 Dex = 3 acc thing).

I never ever thought about it for survival. (it does help, but I can easily stun and buy time for shadows, of course, if the mob resists stun...) I definately notice the acc loss with using one sword on Blu.

And I got the point too. You don't have to dual wield when you are blu/nin. But then, if you are going sword/Genbu's, why not sub something else? I don't think the rate we gain TP is a concern, considering that we use that TP to self-skillchain. Chain Affinity is 2min recast. I can weapon skill twice over before the recast is up.

I think I should note that I don't really care about dishing out those high numbers. I'm more concerns with keeping people alive, managing hate, and killing the mob at a rate that makes the first two things possible. This kind of goes with another thread, but I'm not really worried too much about the damage output from my swords. TP gain, yes.

So, to bring this thought back to the thread topic, should I keep using that Suppanomimi for dual wield and Walmarts for haste, or should i look at other options such as store TP, more haste, or more dual wield?

I don't think us Blus have much Dual Wield stuff. Keep the Suppa (from what I've seen) and the Wally. I'd aim for Haste personally, for spell recast reasons (much easier to stun-lock with a really really low Headbutt/Tail Slap recast), I never really aimed for +Store TP.

But take my advice minimal, I don't even have any endgame gear/experience as Blu.

Keep the Suppa for the sword skill more than anything? D=

Yeah that's a nice chunk of Acc and Att also. I'd say the Dual Wield is a bonus :x

Lol, yeah, I always forget it's got Sword skill on it.

/facepalm

@Aramachus: Yes, you CAN go blu/nin and still use genbu's shield. But unless you really need it to survive (and blu doesn't blood tank all that great and has no shield skill, so it won't help THAT much) it offers you absolutely no bonus.

@Korpg: I said IF a blm/nin can kill a flan fine, then why not? If landing grav isn't an issue, then as I said, not casting stoneskin and blink would save time and a little mp. I'm sure there's a reason all the best blm's go /rdm, but that doesn't mean that blm/nin is completely useless.
Also, dual wielding swords will get you faster tp than sword/shield. This is going off a lot of personal experience rather than mathematical equations, but in my experience dual wield is much faster tp. And higher damage of course, my tp damage is actually quite high for a lolsword job.

@ Haseyo and Hatheron and whoever else: Yes, shield is good for survivability, but if you really don't need that aspect, then a second sword offers you higher damage, and better stats.

Hatheron, if you're doing a ws every minute, then you're really not casting enough spells.
Haseyo, 3 DEX = 1 acc for 2-handed weapons only, one handed weapons are 2 DEX = 1 acc. Having a second sword doesn't increase your accuracy at all, but it allows you to put a sword that has acc on it (like perdu hanger) or extra stats instead.
Really, tp gain isn't important for blu as it's ridiculously easy to get tp every 2 minutes, and getting tp every 1 minute isn't that much of an advantage, that's why suppa is more for the sword skill than for the dual wield.

Fixed.

I'm probably misreading this but blm/notrdm doesn't get Gravity :( I could be misreading this quite easily though.

I was just assuming he meant something like if you could kill a flan before Gravity would make itself useful? Or I dunno.

Thought two handed was...
And Dual was...
And Dex was...
Hmm, where on earth did I get that info from c.c
Don't mind me.

you could do alot more dot with other subs..
but if your soloing the problem with other subs is that you dont have the ability to survive with other subs. Which is why you'd prefer /nin.
i Solo tons of things on my rdm and i use a few diff subs... depending on the mobs. rdm/war, /pld, /nin /blm , /blu, /bst , on harder mobs that will take a long time to kill /nin is easiest to survive with. play around with your subs you'll see some diff.

People like NIN sub because dual-wielding swords is more aesthetically pleasing than single-handing a sword. Statswise, it gives VERY little bonus, if at all. /WAR is the best DD sub for BLU in my experience, followed by /THF. /NIN has the added survivability though, like Jeuce said.

I'd agree. Just at times when I do that omgwtfspikedmg and start getting plummeled, I wish I had those shadows, haha.

Defender+Cocoon+Metallic Body+Genbu's Shield makes you a PLD. Lol. More than halves the damage you take.

And of course, Trick Attack. SATACA Cannonball!

I was always told--and just going on what I've been told--that I would be dual wielding on BLU because most of the damage will ultimately come from the spells: some of the main Blue Mage Swords have some modifiers that are really good for your spells (See the Koggelmander and Ifrit's Blade and the slayer stuff).

But yeah, I would indeed say that I occasionally find myself dual wielding swords because it just seems better looking. Meh!

You could look at it that way...Or you can just say, WAR sub gives an additional 15% damage over time with Berserk, Double Attack for faster TP gain, and 5 more base STR.

Or you could NOT say that, because it's wrong?

My post just got vanished, so I'll be quick. The difference in stats between blu/war and blu/nin with the exact same gear plus an NQ wing sword is +1 DEX in favour of blu/nin (for hume). Attack doesn't effect blu spells, only melee attacks, and dual wield will *probably* give faster tp than double attack anyway.

Enternius, your blu is level 20, and honestly, you're just wrong on most of what you've said (except 2 DEX = 1.5 acc <_<) in this thread.

Blu does spike damage. Most half decent blu's WILL pull hate, and no matter how good a tank you seem to think blu/war is (not nearly as good as pld), you're still gimping yourself by trying to stay alive. As blu/nin you can just pump out more damage, chuck up a ni, do some more damage and then the mobs dead. Seriously, I do NOT advise blu/war for day to day use.

blu/thf will do better spike damage, but again, because of the lack of shadows, you can't go all out in between SA recast. If you have a party that is well organised to allow you to SATA a tank, then maybe, but most parties/alliances won't (unless you're in exp). Separating SA and TA is your next best bet, but with SA vertical cleave, I'll still pull hate off a good tank that I've just TA disseveremented.

Seriously, the survivability of /nin is more than just surviving. Yes you can still survive with zephyr mantle on /war or /thf or /whatever, but it costs you mp and time. As /nin I can tank typical mobs easily which allows me to go all out. On /war I would not be able to go all out because I'd be busy tanking rather than dealing damage.

Blu tp gain and damage really isn't that important, you only need to get 100% in 2 minutes, the damage from sword is not to be ignored of course, but losing utsusemi isn't worth the extra 15% attack on your melee hits. Plus, dual wield is faster tp gain and higher damage than one sword anyway (not 100% on how it stacks up to /war with double attack, but it's quite a lot better than /thf)

blm/nin is nice for omega, especially when low manned.

gunpods hit for like 500/hit and hit fast
but that's the only use i can think of for it.