State Of The Art WS
State of the art WS
If you're trying to "force" more crits on ws, wouldn't zahaks beat twilight? If new nm agi's are very high, like you're saying they prlly are, the 5 extra dex you get from twilight I doubt would be = to or greater than 3% crit hit rate. Same thing for twilight helm vs. ravager's mask+2. I could be wrong, but from every post/thread i've read on crit rate/dex(think i've read them all), straight +crit rate on gear is better than massive dex. I'm no way an expert on game mechanics, and if I'm mistaken I appolagize.
I can't find the one topic where the debate and confirmation over the chance Zahak could be beaten by Twilight were discussed, but in short words, the higher the mob's AGI is, the more DEX you will need to raise your dDEX and reach a considerable amount of Critical Hit rate, at which point you'll have a greater freedom of choice over other stats.
Twilight gear should not be considered separately, rather with the whole itemset, so for certain mobs it may actually prove more beneficial to have an extra +15 DEX (which also means an increase in Crit rate %) over a flat 6% Crit rate bonus.
That is also why a pair of hecatomb leggings +1 and their DEX may prove more beneficial for your Crit WS than ravager's calligae +2. If you don't land a critical hit, after all, the 10% damage increase from them won't happen.
Twilight gear should not be considered separately, rather with the whole itemset, so for certain mobs it may actually prove more beneficial to have an extra +15 DEX (which also means an increase in Crit rate %) over a flat 6% Crit rate bonus.
That is also why a pair of hecatomb leggings +1 and their DEX may prove more beneficial for your Crit WS than ravager's calligae +2. If you don't land a critical hit, after all, the 10% damage increase from them won't happen.
This is part I don't get though, even on the old parses I've seen, mamool ja's camp, for guy to go from 20%-24% he had to raise dex from 121 to 138. Assuming new nm's have even higher agi, it would take even more than that just for 4-5%. I'm just going off other ppls parse results, so just kinna figured 15dex is not greater than 6% crit rate, from what I've seen on those parses. Seems right, don't it?
An increase of 4% that yields a total 24% (dDEX capped) with 17 DEX, especially at a value that's not far from capping on THF Mamools (96 AGI), suggests that he was already capped on some Mamools but not others. If he was fighting a single mob type with an AGI of 88, for instance, it would have been an 11% increase in critrate.
Byakko's with critdmg augment vs AF3+2 legs is a tough call and is going to vary based on a number of factors including mob level, defense, evasion, and AGI. A STR augment on Byakko's in addition to the critdmg would make them very attractive, particularly if you can take advantage of the Store TP (guaranteed HQ augment on Haidate).
Byakko's with critdmg augment vs AF3+2 legs is a tough call and is going to vary based on a number of factors including mob level, defense, evasion, and AGI. A STR augment on Byakko's in addition to the critdmg would make them very attractive, particularly if you can take advantage of the Store TP (guaranteed HQ augment on Haidate).
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Somewhat "Stamp of Approval"
Hell yeah!!!
Not gonna comment on the outside abyssea sets because it is so so dependent on what you're fighting, but inside abyssea, Byakko's with 2str 4% crit dmg (ie perfect aug) only beats af3+2 on IT mobs if you're popping both RCB and stalwarts.
In other situations AF3+2 will win.
In other situations AF3+2 will win.
Odin.Sheelay said:
I promised I'd try keep an up to date list of what are supposed to be the best WS builds for WAR so, seeing how the introduction of a few new items and the addition of Synergy Augments to Abj. gear have changed a few options, here it goes (once again, if I missed a few items or misunderstood the overall consensus, I'll Edit this list):
- First of all, the TP set. I have no problem believing a well made 6Hit build can beat a 5Hit build due to the sacrifices made to take 1 hit out so, since Adaman/Armada has been proven capable of obtaining at least as much Stp and DA augments as Askar Body, this would make the new top TP build, both Inside and Outside Abyssea (correct me if I'm wrong):
- I'll take out the least used WSs next, since they have changed little and therefore need less discussing about.
King's Justice/Fell Cleave. The only variation here is the return of properly augmented heca feet which, iirc, can get up to +5 STR and +GA skill augments. This set should cover both Inside and Outside scenarios:
Steel Cyclone. This is where I take a personal "leap of faith" and say the new jingang hose and jingang greaves are quite nice for SC alone (you give up some STR in exchange for some considerable amounts of VIT), and this set will work well both Inside and Outside Abyssea:
- Now the hard part. Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury. These two WSs are the ones that require most attention over buffs and location. Luckily, they at least share similar sets.
Inside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury, Berserk Up. (Note, neck and belt will vary depending on the WS. Snow works for RR and Breeze works for UF). Iirc, a properly augmented pair of bellicus cuisses can go up to +2 WS Damage and +2 Crit Hit rate and would prove optimal.
Due to the extreme rarity of those 2 augments, let alone the slim chance of getting both together on the same pair, let's stick to something slightly easier to obtain such as a +4% Crit Dmg augmented pair of Byakko's Haidate, which could possibly beat ravager's cuisses +2 while under the effect of RCB and Stalwart tonic in addition to Berserk(Note, cavaros mantle seems to be most effective while under the effect of drinks and with Berserk up):
Inside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury, Berserk Down. grim cuirass remains the most convenient swap to bump your Attack up:
Outside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury. This is where most people will argue about the extreme focus on DEX, but for new NMs such as the ones from Voidwatch, it will probably prove most ideal due to the need to increase your crit rate before even going to crit damage. After all, the new VNM are supposed to be the tip of the iceberg for new Endgame, so it's not bad to keep in mind the possibility we will once again need to worry about wiffing stuff and such. Aaand I can't spoiler this one so no more shrinking this wall of text:
I hope this turns out to be an appropriate list and will be of use to me as much as it will to everyone else. Otherwise I'll simply fix the errors and Edit it. Cheers
- First of all, the TP set. I have no problem believing a well made 6Hit build can beat a 5Hit build due to the sacrifices made to take 1 hit out so, since Adaman/Armada has been proven capable of obtaining at least as much Stp and DA augments as Askar Body, this would make the new top TP build, both Inside and Outside Abyssea (correct me if I'm wrong):
- I'll take out the least used WSs next, since they have changed little and therefore need less discussing about.
King's Justice/Fell Cleave. The only variation here is the return of properly augmented heca feet which, iirc, can get up to +5 STR and +GA skill augments. This set should cover both Inside and Outside scenarios:
Steel Cyclone. This is where I take a personal "leap of faith" and say the new jingang hose and jingang greaves are quite nice for SC alone (you give up some STR in exchange for some considerable amounts of VIT), and this set will work well both Inside and Outside Abyssea:
- Now the hard part. Raging Rush and Ukko's Fury. These two WSs are the ones that require most attention over buffs and location. Luckily, they at least share similar sets.
Inside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury, Berserk Up. (Note, neck and belt will vary depending on the WS. Snow works for RR and Breeze works for UF). Iirc, a properly augmented pair of bellicus cuisses can go up to +2 WS Damage and +2 Crit Hit rate and would prove optimal.
Due to the extreme rarity of those 2 augments, let alone the slim chance of getting both together on the same pair, let's stick to something slightly easier to obtain such as a +4% Crit Dmg augmented pair of Byakko's Haidate, which could possibly beat ravager's cuisses +2 while under the effect of RCB and Stalwart tonic in addition to Berserk(Note, cavaros mantle seems to be most effective while under the effect of drinks and with Berserk up):
Inside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury, Berserk Down. grim cuirass remains the most convenient swap to bump your Attack up:
Outside Abyssea, Raging Rush/Ukko's Fury. This is where most people will argue about the extreme focus on DEX, but for new NMs such as the ones from Voidwatch, it will probably prove most ideal due to the need to increase your crit rate before even going to crit damage. After all, the new VNM are supposed to be the tip of the iceberg for new Endgame, so it's not bad to keep in mind the possibility we will once again need to worry about wiffing stuff and such. Aaand I can't spoiler this one so no more shrinking this wall of text:
I hope this turns out to be an appropriate list and will be of use to me as much as it will to everyone else. Otherwise I'll simply fix the errors and Edit it. Cheers
Edited and Bu-Bumped. No more!
Thanks a lot everyone, for your contributions! Good thread.
Odin.Sheelay said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Somewhat "Stamp of Approval"
Its obvious your a dex build fan, and that's all cool. But when you don't even know the stats of whatever nm you're facing, its a pretty far out cry to say "cap your dDex" by maximizing dex in just about every single slot available. Expecially when you don't even know the agi of the mobs your facing(guess you're talkin about Voidwatch nm's, lemme know when they drop something thats worth it). Not saying I'm a anti dex/crit person, but at most, you're looking at 25% crit rate just goin off dex alone. Just with crit + gear I can get 16%, and that's not even counting any bonuses from dex.
Unicorn.Drexler said:
Odin.Sheelay said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Somewhat "Stamp of Approval"
Its obvious your a dex build fan, and that's all cool. But when you don't even know the stats of whatever nm you're facing, its a pretty far out cry to say "cap your dDex" by maximizing dex in just about every single slot available. Expecially when you don't even know the agi of the mobs your facing(guess you're talkin about Voidwatch nm's, lemme know when they drop something thats worth it). Not saying I'm a anti dex/crit person, but at most, you're looking at 25% crit rate just goin off dex alone. Just with crit + gear I can get 16%, and that's not even counting any bonuses from dex.
I wasn't rejoycing over the fact Nightfyre provided some extra detail towards the feasibility of DEX being superior to flat Crit rate increase, rather over the fact that, other than that, he gave little corrections to the builds I made on the post.
I'm not a DEX fan, at least not to the extent you seem to think, but if it proves better than Crit%, I'll stick to it. It's all a matter of situation though. Of course i don't know the stats on current mobs but i wasn't trying to say "everyone max out DEX because I know best it's how you do it right" in the first place. The whole topic was made to try and recollect all the info I've read so far and provide everyone with a list that would be as accurate as possible. There's always room for error or changes to be made of course.
As of now, for 99% of the game content, such a heavily DEX buffed build is likely to be unnecessary.
From the items I've seen so far though, a few Voidwatch NMs are worth bumping into.
[+]
I love that word situation, lets ppl fill in the blanks with bull****.
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I love that word situation, lets ppl fill in the blanks with bull****.
Seriously? Everything in the game is situational. If you don't like it, stop posting and stop playing, or admit you're forever a lower tier of player.
[+]
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I love that word situation, lets ppl fill in the blanks with bull****.
you mad or something? ( >_>)
The game is all about situations/occasions
[+]
Bahamut.Serj said:
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I love that word situation, lets ppl fill in the blanks with bull****.
Who the hell are you to tell me I'm a low tier player? (I'd prlly kick your *** if you said it to my face). I'm just having a debate here with Sheelay, and as a matter of fact, I am a mass dex build fan was just questioning from the other side, just to get some feedback. I'm not mad, its just alot of times ppl ask "what's better" there's no real definitive answer, so i prodded sheelay a lil bit cuz Sheelay seems to know what's up, so just wanted some explanation as to why the mass dex build for ukko ws. Now that I know its "just a guess", it lead to further prodding, that's all. Just trying to figure out whats what. Appears I'm not the only one.
Not mocking you or anything right now, but the topic is still just 2 pages long. If you read the comments the few other people left, you'll see where I took the info from and what made me opt for a high DEX build. I tend to value Nightfyre's comments especially, because he usually provides the furthest detail to his claims, but he's not the only one.
Precisely because there is no definitive answer, it seemed awkward you insisted +Crit% would beat DEX (even though DEX itself grants +Crit%).
The Outside Aby RR/UF build I posted doesn't simply come with DEX alone. Twilight body and helm for example grant additional STR/Attack, Augmented BH's grant (ideally) +4% crit damage etc, and outside Abyssea you will not be benefitting from 50STR Atmas, meaning your fSTR/Attack won't necessarily be capped on everything, hence the need to go back to the good ole base stats.
Edit: Btw, I don't know as much as Nightfyre, Ejin, Hitoseijuro and others. I've seen them crunch data the most at least. I just try remember the stuff and gather it up :P
Precisely because there is no definitive answer, it seemed awkward you insisted +Crit% would beat DEX (even though DEX itself grants +Crit%).
The Outside Aby RR/UF build I posted doesn't simply come with DEX alone. Twilight body and helm for example grant additional STR/Attack, Augmented BH's grant (ideally) +4% crit damage etc, and outside Abyssea you will not be benefitting from 50STR Atmas, meaning your fSTR/Attack won't necessarily be capped on everything, hence the need to go back to the good ole base stats.
Edit: Btw, I don't know as much as Nightfyre, Ejin, Hitoseijuro and others. I've seen them crunch data the most at least. I just try remember the stuff and gather it up :P
I wan't claiming crit rate on gear was better, it was more alon the lines that it was more a definitive value. Where you have super dex on ws(not knowing how much dex over dDex you prlly are) vs. perhaps putting str/Da into those slots.
The only reason I even posted on here, was because I was kinna hoping there would be some magic number of dex someone would say would be optimal, as i know without a doubt other ppl know more on such things. And some ppl take it to a whole new lvl. Without knowing how much dex is needed to maximize your crit hit % vs. xnm, its all just speculation. That's all I was saying, and even saying "situationally" is all just guess work as well. Who know's what kinna stats the new nm's have? If you know a site/link that tests this kinna thing, I'd appreciate it.
The only reason I even posted on here, was because I was kinna hoping there would be some magic number of dex someone would say would be optimal, as i know without a doubt other ppl know more on such things. And some ppl take it to a whole new lvl. Without knowing how much dex is needed to maximize your crit hit % vs. xnm, its all just speculation. That's all I was saying, and even saying "situationally" is all just guess work as well. Who know's what kinna stats the new nm's have? If you know a site/link that tests this kinna thing, I'd appreciate it.
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I'd prlly kick your *** if you said it to my face)
Oh snap
[+]
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I was kinna hoping there would be some magic number of dex someone would say would be optimal
This is an informative thread, spare us the puerile "I'd kick your *** irl for that" crap.
[+]
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Unicorn.Drexler said:
I was kinna hoping there would be some magic number of dex someone would say would be optimal
Apparently I haven't dedicated as much of my life to this game as others, and I'm just suggesting something might be pure speculation over fact. And for you to say what I said was crap, after being insulted for just having a debate with someone, well... I expected more from you.
Unicorn.Drexler said:
Apparently I haven't dedicated as much of my life to this game as others
Going to use this when i been call gimp!
:P
[+]
Unicorn.Drexler said:
Apparently I haven't dedicated as much of my life to this game as others,
Quote:
And for you to say what I said was crap, after being insulted for just having a debate with someone, well... I expected more from you.
[+]
Wasn't really "scoffing" at the word, it just seems to me that everytime anyone try's to debate/look from the other side, ppl just throw up the "situational" flag without knowing what the true stats/optimum setups are. I actually think Sheelay's Dex build for Ukko's is kinna cool, and was just fishing for perhaps someone else who might know on actually know for fact whether or not is was too high, cuz it is quite large dex build. Then all of a sudden, I'm a low tier player, some dude's pissing me off by being insulting, then the little side jokes start happening. I was just trying to look from the other perspective to get some insight, and I start getting like attacked for it. I know I'm not a regular poster on here, but I've played the game for some time now, and am usually pretty cool when ppl piss me off. The whole "I'd prlly kick your *** if you said it to my face" thing was way too stupid and I admit that, and I appolagize to everyone for typing that. I was only trying to have a discussion on the subject that's all.
[+]
seems to me like in outside sets N legs +1 with crit rate+ be worth using. I know you lose 6 dex+4% crit dmg, but gain attack+ w/e the crit rate is(I saw 4% listed on bg, 3% personally). I dont even have a pair to try them out><. (also, I just noticed i've been posting from a char that was like 4 servers old>.>)
Get ready for an incredibly long post comparing the typical Abyssea TP build to a ddex/crit build for outside of abyssea content.
Assuming a high level mob (level 97, 420 def, 90 agi/vit), hume war/sam, no food, with ukonvasara. Capping ddex would require between 50-60 dex in gear. Against a lower level mob where a lower ddex is required these estimations are irrelevent.
Sets:
Math:
Notes:
Semi-simplified math.
Ignored Retaliation.
Maximum weaponskills = floor(hits/5); six hit, -1 from tp return.
Minimum weaponskills = floor(hits/6); six hit, -1 from tp return, 1 hit overflow from double attack.
Ignored ODD from Ukon's aftermath and af3+2 set, which without doing the math I would guess that it would pull the first set out ahead due to the potential of more overall procs thanks to the additional double attack.
Conclusion or tl;dr:
The typical TP set inside of abyssea is still slightly superior to a ddex/crit build inside of abyssea.
Correct me if I messed something up. Might also work on outside of abyssea Ukko's/RR builds some more, my original math that I was going to post might be blotched so I need to redo it. Plus I'm at work so I shouldn't be doing this.
Edit: small formatting changes
also, I will try to work on the same sets with a higher cratio achieved through the use of berserk and food.
Edit 2: fail math.
I calculated the ddex set as a 6 hit, when it's actually a 7 hit with ukon. Didn't alter the set and recalculated as a 7 hit because trading the haste+dex to make it a 6 hit is too much work for me to redo at this moment, might update some other time.
Assuming a high level mob (level 97, 420 def, 90 agi/vit), hume war/sam, no food, with ukonvasara. Capping ddex would require between 50-60 dex in gear. Against a lower level mob where a lower ddex is required these estimations are irrelevent.
Sets:
Math:
Notes:
Semi-simplified math.
Ignored Retaliation.
Maximum weaponskills = floor(hits/5); six hit, -1 from tp return.
Minimum weaponskills = floor(hits/6); six hit, -1 from tp return, 1 hit overflow from double attack.
Ignored ODD from Ukon's aftermath and af3+2 set, which without doing the math I would guess that it would pull the first set out ahead due to the potential of more overall procs thanks to the additional double attack.
Conclusion or tl;dr:
The typical TP set inside of abyssea is still slightly superior to a ddex/crit build inside of abyssea.
Correct me if I messed something up. Might also work on outside of abyssea Ukko's/RR builds some more, my original math that I was going to post might be blotched so I need to redo it. Plus I'm at work so I shouldn't be doing this.
Edit: small formatting changes
also, I will try to work on the same sets with a higher cratio achieved through the use of berserk and food.
Edit 2: fail math.
I calculated the ddex set as a 6 hit, when it's actually a 7 hit with ukon. Didn't alter the set and recalculated as a 7 hit because trading the haste+dex to make it a 6 hit is too much work for me to redo at this moment, might update some other time.
Same sets as I used before with a higher cRatio through the use of Berserk and Red Curry Bun.
Results were as I expected, and the reason I wanted to attempt this. May have made a mistake though since I was doing this much quicker than the first set.
Math:
Conclusion and tl;dr:
dDEX set is superior to the typical abyssea TP set when using good food and berserk.
Assuming a Ukonvasara, a typical abyssea TP set pulls out ahead because of the six hit, need to rework the math with a six hit for the dDEX set.
However, with a Maschu +2 or any 504 delay gaxe, the dDEX set I originally proposed will still pull ahead outside of abyssea because it will still have a six hit (possibly excluding widowmaker because of the DA damage boost).
Edit: fail math.
I calculated the ddex set as a 6 hit, when it's actually a 7 hit with ukon. Didn't alter the set and recalculated as a 7 hit because trading the haste+dex to make it a 6 hit is too much work for me to redo at this moment, might update some other time.
Results were as I expected, and the reason I wanted to attempt this. May have made a mistake though since I was doing this much quicker than the first set.
Math:
Conclusion and tl;dr:
Assuming a Ukonvasara, a typical abyssea TP set pulls out ahead because of the six hit, need to rework the math with a six hit for the dDEX set.
However, with a Maschu +2 or any 504 delay gaxe, the dDEX set I originally proposed will still pull ahead outside of abyssea because it will still have a six hit (possibly excluding widowmaker because of the DA damage boost).
Edit: fail math.
I calculated the ddex set as a 6 hit, when it's actually a 7 hit with ukon. Didn't alter the set and recalculated as a 7 hit because trading the haste+dex to make it a 6 hit is too much work for me to redo at this moment, might update some other time.
Sorry for triple post and starting off-topic. I started my math on topic, trailed off, and posted the results as I got them lol.
As far as outside of abyssea weaponskills. The sets are a bit different. My personal inside abyssea set is almost identical to the one in the OP, so not going to touch on that right now.
Numbers were thrown together quickly so may be innacurate, but they both fell within a couple damage of each other.
Set 1 (stacking ddex):
Ukon|Claymore| |AF3
Twilight|Gorget|Brutal|Pixie
Twilight|AF3+2|Rajas|Strigoi
Atheling|Elemental|Byakko|AF3+2
fstr = 20
cratio = 1.1923
crit rate = 26%
double attack = 33%
average = ~1320
max = ~2800
Set2 (random pieces):
Ukon|Claymore| |AF3
AF3+2|Gorget|Brutal|AF3
Twilight|AF3+2|Rajas|Strigoi
Atheling|Elemental|Hachiryu|AF3+2
fstr = 20
cratio = 1.2003
crit rate = 18%
double attack = 38%
average = ~1310
max = ~2700
Increasing cratio through food and berserk produced almost identical, but higher, results. Topping out around ~4000 max and ~2000 average with Berserk and Red Curry Bun for both sets.
Conclusion/tl;dr:
I suck at picking weaponskill sets and doing weaponskill math because I got almost the same numbers for both sets.
Someone either needs to help me out or
As far as outside of abyssea weaponskills. The sets are a bit different. My personal inside abyssea set is almost identical to the one in the OP, so not going to touch on that right now.
Numbers were thrown together quickly so may be innacurate, but they both fell within a couple damage of each other.
Set 1 (stacking ddex):
Ukon|Claymore| |AF3
Twilight|Gorget|Brutal|Pixie
Twilight|AF3+2|Rajas|Strigoi
Atheling|Elemental|Byakko|AF3+2
fstr = 20
cratio = 1.1923
crit rate = 26%
double attack = 33%
average = ~1320
max = ~2800
Set2 (random pieces):
Ukon|Claymore| |AF3
AF3+2|Gorget|Brutal|AF3
Twilight|AF3+2|Rajas|Strigoi
Atheling|Elemental|Hachiryu|AF3+2
fstr = 20
cratio = 1.2003
crit rate = 18%
double attack = 38%
average = ~1310
max = ~2700
Increasing cratio through food and berserk produced almost identical, but higher, results. Topping out around ~4000 max and ~2000 average with Berserk and Red Curry Bun for both sets.
Conclusion/tl;dr:
I suck at picking weaponskill sets and doing weaponskill math because I got almost the same numbers for both sets.
Someone either needs to help me out or
All FFXI content and images © 2002-2024 SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. FINAL
FANTASY is a registered trademark of Square Enix Co., Ltd.