Ochain

Has it even been proving that SDB is straight % reduction that adds with shield reduction vs say seperate or phalanx or just some kind of pdif modification etc?

I haven't seen any research on SDB aside from my little creed hands bit. So no, I don't think anyone has determined what exactly it does.

All I did was compare blocking with and without creed hands and noted the difference in percent from. I guess I should look at the data again and see how much actual DMG it usually reduced per hit.

But even if I did , I'm not sure if I could tell if it was phalanx, -dmg%, or a pdif change. I'm not sure how you'd test that.

Would require multiple test... probably be best done in ballista for parts of it.

If it's a straight percentage that is additive to shield would only need to test again on the same mob you did for with Ochain. Preferabling something with high block rate and low dmg reduction. Make sure to change gear to keep the same amount of def and vit. If you get close to the same percentage there is nothing else it could be. Make sure to use shields with known reduction rates.

I guess it could also act as equipment pdt... so could do basically the same thing as above but vary gear pdt instead of shield.

Also after doing those if the dmg reduced ends up being the same amount on average in all those it's probably a phalanx effect though I'd try with phalanx to make sure (and to see if it stacks)

pdif is the non fun one to do that I'd definitely reccomend ballista for. Basically just vary att/def maybe even lvl to see where it does it but that would be the longest one to pin down.

That being said if you have a buddy or an alt you can just start out in ballista and since you know all your buddies stats you can calculate damage ranges to begin with so you would know max/min dmgs you should take blocked or unblocked without SDB.

Just some ideas... sure someone could come up with something a bit better but should work

I Think I can dismiss the phalanx effect theory fairly simply with data I already have.

As phalanx's reduction is a set value that's unaffected by the amount of dmg taken per hit, the dmg reduction should be the same on both a high per-hit dmg sample, and a low per-hit dmg sample.

Now, this assumes that creed hands are the same type of reduction as the Shield DEF trait. It should be, but..

On the Hydra/Ochain test, creed hands reduced the avg hit dmg by 8.8 points. On my previous Chigoe/Ochain test, which has a really low dmg avg hit, creed hands reduced the avg hit by 1.4 points of dmg.

Since the reduction did not remain constant when the per-hit dmg changed I think we can assume that it's not a phalanx effect.

However! The percentage reduction stayed fairly similar. With a -3.9% reduction on the chigoe test, and a -3.6% reduction on the hydra test. I'd assume that the chigoe test value is less accurate due to such low dmg per hit, but the values are still very close together.

Now, I don't know if we can tell anything about pDIF using this data, but I think at this point Shield DMG- or PDT gear- is more likely.

I suppose a simple way of seeing if its PDT gear would be to get -50% in PDT gear then test with and without creed hands. If creed reduces dmg beyond the PDT cap, then it can't be standard PDT.

Well the dmg reduction being the same with the same shield doesn't really prove much...

As far as pdt technically it could add to pdt but goes past the cap too... either way just as easy to compare high to low pdt

I'll confirm your results when I get to work tomorrow Martel (that's where my scrips/programs are). I could rewrite them pretty fast here at home, but I'm very busy and was in a car accident yesterday :(.

60% sounds about right pre-shield def boost, with each subsequent boosts adding ~3% (or a straight type of phalanx effect, who knows). But I'll do more accurate statistical analysis tomorrow during my lunch break.

Thanx again Martel as always. It will be a couple weeks till I can post the same tests for Aegis (as a comparison).

This data puts the Damage Reduction % @ 65~67% reduction, within 3% confidence.

A good guess would be ~60% PDT from initial Ochain Shield Block, and 2.5 or 3% for each additional Shield Defense Bonus trait added (one by level and one from gloves).

Looks like ~15-20% less damage taken than Aegis over time, counting just shield blocks and damage reduction. Though I'm not willing to justify those numbers until I do some lvl 90 Aegis tests of my own. With Ochain being that much lower PDT than we were expecting, I wouldn't be surprised if Aegis was a bit less than people have broadcasted (it's been so long since I did my Aegis block rate/damage reduction tests, I'll have to go see if I can dig them up).

I would rather SE had made both shields with very high block rate, and just have Ochain reduce more damage on hit (and return MP, or add some other physical damage reduction) if they wanted Ochain to be the physical shield. I just feel a bit cheated when my several hundred million gil relic shield fails to block 10 times in a row (rare but happens).

Nice. ~60% on a shield with Ochain's def still puts it at a lower based dmg- than a kite shield, but considering the block rate, its not unreasonable. As much as I'd like ~80%.. ^^

I have a couple of tests to determine the base SDB value in the works. I have the lvl 90 set for a kite(koenig) and tower(tatami) shields done, but I've had far more trouble than I expected getting a lvl ~76 sync for any period of time.

I managed about 800~ total hit test at lvl 76 with koenig, before my afk sync timed out... and was too busy to come back after the reentry wait was over. I'm just not sure that's enough data to even post, as inaccurate as it might be.

Currently using monitors in abyssea grauberg as a test mob. They won't be as accurate as hydra because of lower per hit dmg, and they aren't a static lvl. But if about 100 dmg avg unblocked hit is high enough to get even a basic idea to work from, more precise tests can come later. And I can get like 5~6 of them at a time for the lvl 90 tests. Makes things so much faster.

For further Ochain testing, I can't seem to find any good high lvl mobs with a known, static, lvl. I was gonna use cerberus for the lvl 85 test, but outside abyssea tests suck, and I'd really like to do a lvl 95 or higher test to see if we start seeing uncapped block rate. Then I can start looking at how much skill is needed to recap.

Wyrms are level 95. Best you'll probably get right now unless you feel like establishing Abyssea NM levels through additional cRatio testing.

I'd get GM'd instantly if I tried to hold Tiamat for a few hours of testing.

That leaves.. Jorm and Vrtra. Jorm flies, which reduces the number of normal melee hits I'll take. And I think the in flight magical attack have the same message as normal melee hits. So I'd have to stop/restart the parse every time he switches modes. While trying to survive him, and all those snolls/eles.. christ.

Leaving me with Vrtra.. and all his friends... IF, I could get them all positioned right, with my back to a wall, and Vrtra's tail towards me, I might could survive the physical side of this. But some of those adds are casters too... and that wing move could sleep my whm.

Sounds like some nightmarish test conditions. God...

SE needs to add scan to this game. Use it on a mob, get all its stats displayed. LVL Job/sub, attributes atk, def... prz SE? prz?

Just knowing what freaking lvl something is without having to do exp tests(does that even work anymore? I'd imagine not in abyssea.) would be amazing...

I know, isn't it exciting?!?!

Nope, would have to test via cRatio like I said. Could maybe do some of the new fodder mobs outside Abyssea but I don't know if NQ mobs are really going to put a dent in your block rate.

Hmm. On a related note, the highest level NQ Visions mobs are level 90; maybe max level in Heroes zones is 100. Can't say for sure though.

hey, was having issues getting mobs to stay where I need them to for shield blocks when trying to cleave. Just frustrating when you turn slightly and they all decide to swarm you from the back and sides. Any tips?

Just use a fence/narrow opening/wall something to line them up

also depends on mobs. some will stand inside each other, some wont.

can someone post the ideal blood tanking equips for taking least possible damage taken with an ochain ?

and good job on all the tests, i thought people who cared about the hidden mechanism of the game are extinct

THFs and NINs ripping hate off a MNK? is this a troll attempt?

Ochain is the single most job enhancing item in the game. Problem is it enhances a job that currently has 0 use.
0 x infinity is still 0.

You could be creative and find several uses for it, that MIGHT add a minuscule amount of benefit to your LS.

Holding all the mobs for cleaver instead of a sleeper?
Capping Amber fast? Still a BLM/NIN with cata does this fastest.
Soloing - get your PLD an ochain so he doesn't have to show up for events and can solo his stuff. you get free spot in pt/alliance to invite someone useful, he gets to progress in game. Win/Win situation.

yes in a big group i agree PLD is still the third wheel, but now that i have an Ochain i don't have to deal with morons to do things anymore, i triple box and do everything perfectly alone, i still use NIN to do things in a group in abyssea, but for other things like Voidwatch, PLD is still the boss

sounds terrible.
not fun.
do not want.

Why is everything I read here 100% wrong clearly not played pld or ... your an epic gimp one.

You realize that BLM/NIN can't use Cataclysm, right?

@Kaht: that's my point. Kinda went over your head there. woosh lol.



Which part is "100%" wrong?
please specify, and I'm sure you're going to reveal that you're using a PLD for most stuff and are in fact, gimping yourself and your LS.

I'm 25 souls away from finishing my stage 85 and will be done with the 90 (lolazadja) within a couple days afterwards and was wondering the same thing.
I don't think I'm gonna be stacking up on PDT when I get ochain. The entire point of getting this shield and already having aegis is to push PLD's game play style towards maximum dmg output while maintaining great survivablity. I see a lot of ochain PLDs tanking in V.sets and Drings and never holding hate for more than 30 seconds.

Also, kudos to you for deciding to do ***on your own and low man stuff. I think large alliances and big linkshells are a thing of the past and everyone else who doesn't realize this isn't getting with the program.

ive done this on thf while a mnk was tanking chloris. pretty leet fella, 85 verth etc. was trying to TH it and they told me to turn around.

i agree with you on DD set, i've been using that till i did Voidwatch T4, got the idea of "Auto-invincible Ochain PLD" kicked out of my head, still need PDT/MDT set for certain stuff, but i still rather use DD gear on physical based mobs, and i use HP for magical based mobs when i double box so i have enough time to react instead of panic and spam

Enmity works by % by 5, if tank have 100% and DD have 95% then hate will keep swapping between them, a PLD have the ability to keep the 100% all for himself and everyone else 95%

the SCH spell Libra can tell you this, THF melee can rip off MNK hate easily if he engage for 2mins his hate will rise to 95% then its up to whoever lands a hit on mob, it will keep swapping between 95% and 100% for both the THF and the MNK, i'm not an awesome tester like Dasva/Martel, but i had a SCH with me to spam and show me how it works

Has physical dmg % reduction on blocks for ochain been confirmed?
Sorry for this bump but everyone swears that Ochain reduces more dmg than Aegis on successful blocks, I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing the complete opposite.

No, Aegis blocks more per hit, Ochain just blocks at a higher rate.

Don't have my charts at work, but Ochain is 100% block rate (I havent seen tests on anything it doesn't cap on) @ 60% damage reduction per hit (63ish% after creed hands).

Aegis caps at about 70% block rate (and not like you'll get that on higher stuff..), but blocks 80% of the damage on successful block.

I had both information studies posted in the PLD FAQ thread main topic, but when I edited it last time, the entire page was deleted for some reason and I havent had time to update it again yet. The info may still be in the normal posts after the OP though.

Can someone confirm / deny ochain stops stuff like enpet and enstun? I swear I read that somewhere but I can't find it again.

I'd assume the first would be the way it works.