Daka/

Triplus or Rapidus Sax beats both.

Twilight Knife

2-4... kinda depends though. If you got lots of af3+2 you might want to make a triple attack buildish

At this point not sure it's even worth it for thf anyways... it kinda goes at odds with all the triple attacking your doing anyways

2-4 is garbage for thf due to triple attack. Triplus will give you the best DPS. Rapidus will...make you swing faster I guess, but your offhand swings will be crappy. Twilight is ok. The only Kila you need is agi+/eva+ for tanking situations against high accuracy mobs.

Twilight Knife is better for TP Gain, even with a ~15% Proc rate it still absorbs usually 7-10TP, It will get you TP Quicker, and it does indeed STEAL TP/HP/MP From the mob. Meaning that HP-Drain is extra damage to your over-all DPS.

Triplus offers a completely unnoticable increase to Triple Attack damage (We assume 3%), However that is an acceptable boost to your over-all DPS. Now, If you're rocking 5/5 THF+2, or even 4/5THF+2, You'll want Triplus no doubt, simply because of the added chances to proc THF+2 Set bonus, that is no question.

However, If you can't get 5/5 THF+2, or even 4/5, Use a Twilight Knife.

Twilight is better in terms of Utility and support, and is very close in DPS thanks to the added damage through "HP Drain", as well as very close in TP-gain thanks to the TP Drain effect. Its a matter of opinion, Any Math on these two weapons comes out very very close, if they're not horribly biased.

***Now, thats just for Damage. (EVA ***:)

Anyway, Despite the skeptics, Twilight is a magnificent dagger for those THF's who just don't have the reach for Empyrean+2 set, But if you're rocking Empyrean +2 5/5 or 4/5, Nothing comes close to beating Triplus because of its invaluable addition to the THF +2 Set Bonus. Both weapons are useful however, for 2 completely different reasons.

Anyway,

4/5 5/5 Empyrean +2/Proc-Bonus = Triplus
No Empyrean +2/Pure Utility/support = Twilight.

Oh, And Gred!:

I tp in 4/5 af3+2 and would take twilight over triplus any day, but i do much more solo/lowman then in an alliance so eva kila +2/t.knife is the way to go for me till i get my ice on a cone.

I'm trying to remain as unbiased as possible in my assumptions with Triplus/Twilight cause frankly I'd never give up my Twilight for pure utility (The TP Drain actually taking TP from the mob, etc etc).

But I try to at least acknowledge Triplus is not useless, as well as pointing out some of its positive effects, cause i still use the dagger now. My favorite combo in fact is Twilight/Triplus =x

Yeah ur right and not to forget triplus, r.bonnet+2,r.earring, epeniis ring, merits and jobtrait give u 20% triple attack before u toss on any atmas, toss apoc on top and ur looking at 35% triple attack.

Even with the crappy proc rate of 5%~ with 4/5 or 5/5 af3+2 its a very nice icing on the top.

Yes, Though despite my best efforts in showing both daggers in a positive light, I still expect an incredibly nerd-raging unnecessarily hateful math ridden response as to why I'm an idiot.

Pride is a silly thing.

Mandau/Twilight is 366 combined delay. DW3 + Supa + Boomerang makes that 245.22 modified delay. Delay per hand is 122.61. 5+[(122.61 - 180) * 1.5 / 180] = 4.5 TP each hand. Assuming 6 STP from Rajas and Brutal we have 4.7 TP per hand and 9.4 TP a round.

Mandau/Triplus is 352. DW modified delay is 235.84. Delay per hand is 117.92. That's 4.4 TP per hand. 6 STP takes us to 4.7 TP a hand. 9.4 TP a round.

(Twashtar has the same delay as Mandau, and Empyreans are accessible enough such that I think it's fair to use Twashtar as the bar when we're talking dagger setups... that and I'm too lazy to rerun this math for Kila setups and Daka setups and other non-optimized combos)

So you don't actually get any extra TP for the extra delay, it's just not enough extra delay.

The numbers I've seen all suggest 10%. Assuming max drain every time for the sake of argument, this would save you a round of TP'ing under ideal circumstances. It takes 9 rounds to reach 100 TP after Evisceration, and a drain proc on the last round isn't helpful, so basically there's a 8.8% (1/10 * 8/9) chance for the Twilight to save you an attack round. I'm not mathy enough to translate this figure into expected impact overall on DPS or to compare that to the impact on DPS from Triplus' lower delay.

There is one caveat to this though. Remember there's a reason it isn't as effective stacking STP with DW as it is with 2H. It was because if a 2H double attacks or triple attacks it counts as an entire round. Similarly if a 2H missed a swing, it was an entire round missed. Because each hand procs multiple attacks separately and each hand can miss separately, DW TP cycles are always littered with imperfect rounds from when one hand misses or when the hands swing unequal amounts of times. Thus mathing to get to 100TP perfect wasn't effective because there were too many situations where you wouldn't hit 100 TP exactly even with a perfect STP set.

So we're talking a ~9% chance to save a round that is circumscribed by a massive chance that natural misses/2A/3A/4A procs make it such that you will undershoot or overshoot the round anyway.

And I've been hearing the quadruple attack is exclusive to the hand wielding Twilight. If that's the case it loses the attack frequency battle where it had a 3 swing per hundred advantage versus Triplus.

Now the point about HP draining as pure damage is a fair argument but it's hard to to translate that to expected damage because it's a constant in a world where we are talking relative variables.

All together I think the benefits of Twilight are vastly overstated, at least as a DPS offhand. I think Twilight/Triplus is an excellent combo for people not doing ToM and not going for Twashtar, but if you have another main-hand I just don't see the point in wasting one's time getting one.


Actually you did publicly claim a 30% TP proc rate:

"TP Drain goes as high as 10TP drained, and procs roughly 30% of the time, i'd say ~35%MP, 35% HP."

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/15681/mandau-offhand-dagger/3/#1046528


First off, I don't care and I'm not "nerd raging"... I simply think you're wrong and will point that out if I think it appropriate. For someone trying to play it cool, I think it's funny you're the one to start tossing pot shots assuming I would be "nerd raging" and "unnecessarily hateful." From my perspective it seems that you should take your own advice when it comes to pride. You seem to be overreacting because someone actually challenges your opinions about Thief (if you really want me gone though, you could probably get my off FFXIAH if you could revive KI's forums)

Second, you are right that I resorted to math. You said yourself in refuting Togekiss about the Triplus "There are too many assumptions and not enough facts. its Guess-work." So how do we fix that? Math. Let's not guess how useful X is over Y, let's analyze numerically what does better DPS, or at least break it down so it's clearer what we are comparing.


There is no point keeping Thief's Knife on past the first hit. Hit it once with your TK on, then switch daggers. Your next upgrade will be for level 8 (assuming TH3, Atma, and +3 from Feet/Hands/Dagger). The game remembers your highest TH level even if you swap your TH gear out afterwards. I have tested this myself.

To be fair you never specified for what purpose. I assumed damage since you pointed out Kila's DPS, thus I advised you to not waste your time on either since neither is stellar as an offhand for DPS.

If it's between just those two however I would lean towards Kila.

Treat Dual Wield as simple delay reduction and look at it like this. Daka/Kila gives 262 delay (DW3 with Supa and JSE Boomerang) while Daka/Auric gives 249. So we're comparing 4DMG, 20 attk, and 9 STR vs. 13 delay reduction and Subtle Blow. When you look at it that way I think Kila wins.

another note: granted auric gives dual wield which helps with attack speed, rapidus sax has a far lower delay (which is accented with the haste it gives) which means when you have a brd in party your delay would cap out at a lower number with rapidus than auric


delay cap:
daka/rapid: 70.2
daka/auric: 80.4

Faster isn't always better ;).

Also personally I'm currently at like 27% haste on my thf which isn't that well geared without rapidus... thought that may change if I get my hands on some af3+2 and start taking out haste peices. Or if I get a little more haste so I can do weird things like replace twilight belt with raiders lol

for times where you need to be a bit slower you could always use something like this: http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/47988

But can you DW it?

One in the pink, one in the stink.

ftfy

He asked dual wield not tri wield

I believe .Smileybone was referring to The shocker

I know the reference, I modified it to fit dual wield :p

I still don't own a twilight (go 0/7 <.<), but from what my friend told me, i'd favor it any day on tank/solo. From her testings with thf/bst she noticed that the enemy tp always drop when you hit with twilight. And only a small part (call it 15% or 30% or w/e) it's actually drained to the user. If this is correct, it's way better than any amount of subtle blow lol. This test was done a while ago, idk if SE ninja changed it or something. I also don't think i've seen anyone else reporting this, but it's very interesting!

im pretty sure twilight doesnt actually steal tp, i felt vindictive and went to kill one of our charmed members, got a tp+7 from one but i didnt see his tp go down.

Maybe doesn't report accurately to you did you ask the member? Also some alot of things work a bit differently on other players

i had TParty so i could see his tp

I know what you used.

New stuff doesn't always work with old plug ins

And