Tachi Fudo

Using one set of Atma is stupid, only time i would use apoc is in Exp parties so honestly i dont really care too much if i am wrong/right. I would use SA/VV/SB or GC on anything worthwhile.

I dont really get how you got a 37.5% "Overall damage" since to begin with your melee damage is only 30% of your total damage. So it would be more like 37.5% increase in your 30% melee damage which would be roughly 10-12% increase in your total damage.

If you could explain your formula a little bit better that would be great thanks.

does breeze gorget work for fudo as well?

No, it doesn't.

thx

Gimp!

Absolutely Not

Hmmm, ok a few things ppl should consider is how atmas affect both sides to a masamune sam's full damage and not just partials. For instanace apoc affects sam's damage 100%, RR is only the melee %, SB,GC ws % only, VV 100%(mind you b/c of fstr its minimal on the melee side, esp with a full 5hit setup) etc etc

If you go through each atma alone to see how each affects a masa sam, youll see how they affect sams overall damage, note that as you start adding a 2nd, 3rd atma to any of the following atmas in combo, their effectiveness may diminish. This is overall btw:

Apoc: 20.4% increase
RR: 15.4% (13.2% w/o aftermath)
A&O: 15.6%
VV: ~12%
SB: 14%
GC: ~10%
SA: 6.8%

Few things to note, as you can see RR is nowhere near the 37% total increase, however Darka's numbers werent too far off when you consider the melee % which at 40% puts you around the 15% mark. So his numbers were correct but not the wording, as I can see ppl point that out..

Also as you can see aftermath does affect RR, so if you just have the ws RR *might* not be the overall best on non-masa sams. VV loses ground here as I have a 5hit set for it and havent removed any stp to increase overall damage which would favor VV(thats something to consider).

Apoc proves to be the biggest increase for sam. No reason not to have it on. So how well do other atmas match up +Apoc?

Apoc+ RR : 39.2% both atmas
Apoc+ VV: 33.5% w/ both
Apoc+ SB: 36.1% w/both
Apoc+ A%O: 36.3 w/both
Apoc+GC: 32.4% w/both
Apoc+ SA: 28.7% w/both

No surprise there, as you can see this is the main reason why when you ask which is the best atma combo for fudo sam, youll hear Apoc/RR/??? combo a lot. Again, VV is up there with RR once you start dropping off stp gear and add in other gear with DA etc to take full advantage of the regain.

Math was based around a +60cruor average to stats(since it varies from zone to zone), normal 5hit cookie cutter build, ws gear was within reach of a majority of players or basic high end cookie cutter build. /War + RCB as food. Mob was a typical Heroes def exp mob.

But Hito, clearly these numbers change on higher mobs(500def?)
Apoc: 20.4%
RR: 17.7%
VV: 16.7%
A&O: 21%
SB: 14.4%
GC: 10%
SA: 14.1%
They do but the order of gain doesnt really move them up or down much. The only atmas that move up the ladder are those that had attack but due to the exp mobs capping most of the attack a majority of the time their full gain was lost. As you can see here A&O moves slightly passed Apoc due to the attack it has kicking in, same with VV and SA. Note, VV's full regain still hasnt affected our 5hit, so it gets better. Id probably still use apoc over A&O if I had to choose between them just b/c of the minor difference vs the -HP esp on bigger prey.

So conclusion, Apoc is a must, RR/VV are strong canditates for 2nd candidates and/or 3rd. 3rd atma can be to your liking for situational play as you can see how they rank overall.

so VV/Apoc/SB would be better then mixing in RR if you just have WoE weapon?

So from all this Apoc+RR+VV Taking full advantage of regain will possibly put out the most damage?

from my understanding with masa yes, but with just WoE weapon it seems like VV/apoc/SB would be better? I could be understand the math wrong tho.

Apoc/RR/A&O should slightly be ahead, not enough to pick it over VV with the -HP on harder mobs. Exp mobs, virtually the same.

Yes, but RR/A&O arent too far behind for 3rd atma for high def mobs, exp mobs VV/Apoc/SB pulls ahead more.

Thanks, and my 5hit in abyssea is build around VV atm.

Cool thanks for that makes more sense now.

Thank you for the numbers and explanation, Hito.
Shed some light on the mathematical POV.

Are the percentages all for Masamune (90) btw?

What math did you need? I think darka covered some of RR and I VV to a point. Apoc/A&O will vary on other TA/DA gear % aswell as pdif for the attack on A&O.

Yes thats with masamune 90, however 85 wouldnt be much different, only varying within .5-1% of a difference but none stepping up or down the ladder of usefulness.

Also thats with haste/hasso/marches(+3) so if you find yourself w/o marches, VV should go up in % a bit aswell.

What I meant was that you shed some light on it with your maths. I didn't need any more of them. =)
You did help me to understand it better.

So, since the values are for a masamune, considering more STR/ATT and the ODD effect, how much of an impact would RR have on the WoE weapon?
I would assume it's still somewhat high but might lose a chunk due to not having the aftermath effect.

Every DD should be using Razed Ruins whether you are relying on a Crit WS or not, it is that good.

Razed Ruins is a Huge increase to Melee DPS and pretty much guarantees that you will have Capped ACC everywhere inside of abyssea mixed with the Dex from Cruor Buffs.

Gains from RR for melee only phase is

(Old Critical Rate * Old Damage Increase from Crit * Melee Split)/(New Critical Rate * New Damage Increase from Crit * Melee Split)

The melee split I used was 30/70 DoT/WS. As I mentioned earlier the increase in critical DMG is substantial because it adds 1.0 to pdif, RR has high gains because it adds critical hit rate+ and DMG+. It still has a high effect on SAM because SAM still has more regular hits than WS hits. Apoc favours this too, since it'll often have you TPing over 100, may as well have a high chance to do high DMG if that occurs.
So it's +30% rate, adding 1.0 pdif to 30% more hits, then *1.30 DMG. Even with capped attack it's still a massive increase. Also like I said, I assumed dDEX and accuracy were capped in that, if not then the gains are much higher. Additionally if you don't have Fudo, less of your overall DMG will be from WS, favoring RR even more for other SAMs.
I haven't read the VV stuff, but Hito knows what he's talking about. Apoc/RR/VV is definitely the way to go.
Worth noting I didn't use randomizers in that, meaning even with capped pdif, and Fudo, you're probably scaling from 37~40% increase often. Additionally, Aftermath should favor it even further if applicable.

TL;DR, it isn't just +crit DMG, it's also +crit rate, the gains are pretty high.

I certainly agree with the benefits it gives to any melee job and 2handers even more so in terms of acc and higher crits.
The thing is only, that I have never been meleeing enough (just swinging, not WSing), the few times I actually got to use SAM in aby, to believe that RR would add that much dmg to your overall performance. This is always compared to other atma choises anyway.
As sam you usually don't need to TP on mobs for long before you can WS, due to low x-hit builds (where atmas are a factor as well, so that takes away a spot usually), the use of meditate and the fact that you get TP by only standing around silly by using at least one regain atma.

Personally, I think that RR only makes sense in situations where you melee A LOT, long fights and exp situations where you don't have many breaks between new mobs in which your meditate timer could cool down or the regain effect gives you enough TP to save at least 1/2-1 swing. Situations where you might be tanking all the time or are like /thf since you would pull a lot of hate meleeing that much.

I'm not saying that RR is nonsense but I would just take it as situational and the situations I've been in don't justify the use of it for me (over other atmas).
Maybe it's just out-dated thinking on my part however, since SAM never has been a DPS job but a WS one.

Chunk is too high of an amount to compare the difference between RR and not RR for WoE sam. Something like Apoc/VV/SB vs Apoc/RR/A&O both in the same setups to compare or different setups to take advantage of the atmas, would only be .5-3% difference.


While this is true, Sam w/o aftermath is pushing 30/70 split and probably pass the 70% for ws(25/75 probably) since I havent accounted for meditate yet. So the impact on RR is not as big as it is with masamune's aftermath.

However you bring up a point that ppl should consider, while you should be able to cap your acc on most mobs in abyssea just with dex cruor, there *will* be some Heroes NMs you just wont, thus RR's dex becomes more relevant and anytime you are not capped RR wins.

So instead of using Apoc/VV/SB , youd swap to Apoc/VV/RR.

Sorry for being a pain in the *** like that but like I said, RR doesn't really convince me as an option.
For the situations I've mentioned, it certainly might be good but for most things, I don't think it is.

Besides, acc shouldn't be that much of an issue, taking hasso, zanshin, WS acc bonus of SB, meds and even food into account. Which should probably top you off on like everything, unless it's a highly elusive THF mob or something with a strong blind aura or something. Zanshin is certainly nothing to rely on but it halves the amount of swings you would miss in most cases.

Maybe this is all too theoretical and not enough factors have been taken into account in order to say if RR is honestly a valid choise for SAM in particular. On paper the benefits are good but, like I said, I would think that you would have to melee way more than SAM is made for, in order to fully benefit from RR's potential.

Need to test it in the field, I guess. ><

Youre going to have around a 50% crit rate with RR/buffs and each crit will have a 30% boost.

It takes 4 swings to get to 100tp(+ws intial tp) so youll see around 4-6 swings to get 100tp(DA/TA procs on last swings will happen eventually) that means 2-4 swings will be crits and 30% stronger per ws round. SB has to average a higher increase per ws to beat the extra damage the 2-4 swings are averaging. I doubt SB is giving you 1k average on extra damage, while its not hard to see an extra 150-200 per swing when you crit. So you're looking at a 300-800 increase per ws round from RR crits.

Im pretty sure SB's increase is going to be around that give or take on both counts, however like I said anytime the dex on RR is adding acc to you, it wins. And thats just ws right off the bat(with minor tp overflow, it has to be accounted for to be accurate, no one ws at 100Tp 100% of the time), not holding back tp. If you find yourself holding back often for w/e reason, RR gets even better. Again situitional is situitional.

59%

54%

20% from crit dex
4% from merits
30% from RR


If you know where you are getting 5-10% extra crit please let me know so I can read up on it.

Wasn't bonus from DEX around 24-25%? Has been a while since I looked into it anyway.

EDIT: That might have been with merits already, I think. ><

After looking at the posted WS sets in this thread, I've noticed they all use the snow gorget in the neck slot. I have been using light gorget and was under the impression they both worked for fudo.

Should I switch to snow gorget instead?

Should have the same effect as snow as long as its covered by the latent. I use snow belt/gorget in my WS set.

Maybe had some crit hitrate+ gear on or it was just a fluke due to inaccurate parse (small sample/lucky amount of crits etc.).
Doesn't really matter though since it's still the same point, the more you are just swinging without WSing (for whatever reason) the more one can obviously benefit from using RR. Higher crit rate only increases this amount even further.