Mandau & Offhand Dagger

Look you don't need to feed me any Shinryu/Twilight Knife kool-aid or passive aggressive about getting both daggers while people debating the merits have neither.

1) I have access
2) I'm enough of a perfectionist to do content I despise for gear so long as I believe that gear is optimum so in this case I would at least spam the BCNM to get the Atma and the belt
3) It would be an offhand for me -- you at least agree it's shitty as an offhand.

As you said HURR DURR this is a relic offhand thread. I'm speculating on whats optimum for damage. As I said if it's a main hand and all you're pimping are ToM daggers, by all means this is probably a significant upgrade.

But this was pretty much a discussion about optimum offhand daggers for a relic holder. I suggested Triplus because I have an inkling it will work well with Atma, which is a very important factor these days. I mean Evis works well with Atma and Mercy Stroke doesn't, look how well that turned out for Mercy Stroke.

Given the level of enhancement they made the AF3+2 and other Abyssea gear, I'm expecting something halfway decent. In that case it will likely depose RS as the main Mandau offhand because the synergy will be better than speed blitzing. If not? Then I'm thinking that Sax speed blitz still works out best. 3 extra TP a swing and Quad Attack 3% (given diminishing returns with lowered priority vs. DA/TA) probably isn't worth 1% Haste and 40 delay.

I also don't get why you are so gung-ho about carrying a dozen daggers. What reason would there be for a Speed Blitz dagger combo if we could in fact determine that is not the most effective for damage? What's the point of a high damage combo when we determine that in fact it is not the most effective overall for damage? I mean I guess if you solo a lot I can understanding carrying dual Evasion Kila, but I think you take the boy scout always be prepared model a bit too far and are overly defensive about a toy you just added into that too-extensive arsenal.

Her dur was to myself btw.

Why you so mad though? No one was being "passive aggressive" I was stating my opinion, same as you, Except you got mad.

Way to take the argument to a whole new HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE level by being offended at what was not intended as "Passive aggressive"

Sorry if it seems like Now i'm going to be less serious in my argument with you if you cannot learn to control your anger.

I will address this though. The true answer, is fun. You're right maybe i addressed it wrong, it would seem like I appear to be saying each individual is their optimal best, when in fact its not always the absolute best for optimal DPS.

Why go with High Damage combo? Maybe you want some e-peen Screenshots? Its not practical but it'd be fun.

Why go pure speed? Its not practical but maybe you get your jollies from seeing a fast attack speed.

I mean, You know what the best efficiency is, But something there's a fun factor involved. Some people enjoy cold, stoic, DPS. Always going for the best, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

In Every situation where i'm seriously needed to perform to my optimal ability I always use the best daggers in terms of DPS and utility (Auric for Subtle Blow for instance).

But sometimes, I like to switch things up, When I'm duoing maybe, Since i enjoy playing with Rapidus, Auric, Twilight, and my Kila+2, and my Angr Harpe (which i use the least).

Since i cannot absolutely utilize all of those at once, I enjoy keeping them around for their uses and situations.

(And for real, the *hurr durr* part was directed at myself when i came to realization at thread title)

Edit: And seriously, there is absolutely nothing wrong with your play-style of "2 Daggers, nothing more, Final Destination". Its a very optimal and stoic playstyle, There is no shame in performing to the absolute best of your ability at all times.

So maybe step away, take a chill pill, and respond when you cannot be in full on rage mode.

It's funny you thought I was offended or angry, because I wasn't. I'd say you're overly sensitive and take way too personally if you are interpreting my post as RAAAGE

I was merely pointing out that a lot of what you said could easily be interpretted as passive-aggressive pot-shots at me because you seem to assume that because I am anti-Abyssea I was grasping at straws to avoid having to get a Twilight:

"I mean, TBH its not a hard Knife to come by once you get access to Shinryu fight, I'd pick it up if you had the chance"

"Since my comment on the page suggest Twilight > Triplus, and I'll have both, and those RAGERS will have neither. lolololololol."

the comment about the Twilight knife being easy was more directed in general to the mass of readers, not at 1 specific individual, the fact you assumed i was haphazardly trying to make passive aggressive shots at you fortifies my suspicions.

You appear to believe either you're so popular and well known that everyone must already know you are "Anti-Abyssea", or that I must be trying to poke fun at your views on abyssea, and that my comments are passive aggressively assaulting your views on a new expansion... when in fact, they were mostly blanket statements based on testimonies i've heard in multiple places, not from you, nor did i intend them to somehow offend you.

FURTHERMORE, I think its funny when people take the game entirely too serious. There is a certain point between "devoted and enjoying the game" and "Playing to win, *** everyone else, you're wrong". A lot of people have lost sight of that line and have begun to treat this game entirely too seriously, and they lose sight of the fact it is still a game. Now, This is not pointed at you, I'm now talking in general based on the second comment you quoted from me made earlier in the thread.

I still got a little ways to go on the lightening up about things, But I'm making progress. I Admit i still enjoy laughing at those who are so angry over specifics that they actually frequent my FFXIAH page daily. It's an Old habit, you know the sayings though... Old Habits die hard?

Hopefully you've come to realize in this post that you may or may not be as popular on these forums as you think, and maybe realize not everyone knows your opinion on abyssea, and not everyone is out to take passive-aggressive shots at you based on your opinions on virtual content.

Cause I most certainly wasn't. I was commenting my opinion based on questions asked, Certainly not out to get you or take shots at you.

Cliffnotes: A simple "no offense was intended" would have sufficed.

And no I don't think of myself as popular on these forums; tbh I'm still old-skool KI mostly. I'm just broadening my horizons given how dead the THF community is on KI now; this is like the first time I've posted more than once in a single AH topic.

I merely assumed combativeness since we tend to disagree on other forums and because I take it as a norm for behavior in these types of disagreements. Again, old skool KI. All we do is flame. Nothing personal.

Rapidus is great. Duel Weild is ok but the haste and acc would become way more benaficial in the end. I look at it like this. If your soloing or duoing. The haste helps in utsusemi recast. The acc becomes more dependent when fighting tougher NMs if and when needed. And the most important thing is. The lower the delay on a dagger which this is increases your swing rate but just a tad bit overall. The more you swing, the more often your double/triple attack will proc.

Enjoy

I look at this thread and I see a lot of ideas but not much math.

Auric in max DW and rapidus r about the same DPS b4 u factor acc. I don't know the TP gain diff but auric DW effects both hands.

I'm on my phone ATM so no math 2day but maybe l8er.

I agree w Karby n others that while good, magian daggers are less impt in abyss when u don't need the acc n hardly need more attack or r capped on ddex crit or fstr.

When I first saw triplus n twilight I saw "meh" for some reason. Upon reexamination I would expect triplus to outdo Rapid Coitus.

Again not posting math yet but of u look at twilight carefully, it actually appears stronger to me so long as Karbys estimates r good. The drain effect is roughly equal to if it said "store TP +20". I'd like to give more precise details soon. If this is true I could see it being the best offhand.

Karby and Gred, ur both epic individuals. That said, I second having a dagger arsenal. Pre abyssea I used ridill a lot. U'd be surprised how much content involved fighting ep stuff. I had an evasion dagger for tanking and a second for kiting. Blau for the usual and x's for if feeling cheeky, fighting bhaf4 gears where burst DMG was required, or to plant hate at the start of a fight. Were u skillchaining faffy or Lambton/arthos w a good Sam? Maybe u could use mkris given ur TP gain being more impt than DPS. Limbus? Deae gratia. I even almost found a use for 999 delay dagger at ixion.

Duping iratham or something similar? U mite b best w a magian mdt dagger. An arsenal is necessary to go from elite to the being the best.

Quick question, would the rapidus even be considered if you dont need the 1% haste to hit cap?

As I said in my original post, I was looking for general ideas of what direction to go in, and I'm pretty happy with my Kila +2 w/ 9STR/18Attk. I'm not sure of the maths for capped attack etc, but I do still see a difference when popping carbonara/yellow curry bun/red curry bun in Abyssea. In almost all cases, any additional form of Accuracy is overkill on almost every single mob at this point with my normal TP gear.

As Karbuncle posted a few responses ago, I'm here to enjoy the game and if I can have the best gear possible I'll go for it. However, I feel that the setup I've got works out greatly for my setup... equip TH gear to get TH6 on the mob (no... I don't use dread... F*** that) then swap to my Kila and begin getting/holding hate on my THF. Before the posts of "oh your melee's must be gimp... blah blah blah" my biggest competition is a Spharai MNK and our BLU who are both extremely well geared. Between the 3 of us, we can pretty much tear the hell out of anything.

The fact that you have to pre-empt "Your meeles must suck" is a result of the poor reputation THFs have. I think THF is in the upper echelon of DD's atm, if for no other reason than we have a five-hit critical WS. But most people don't recognize it -- sometimes even if they realize how good of a DD NIN is now.

I am a proponent of "optimal daggers" because I have always felt Thief doesn't get the respect it should as a fragile speedster style DD, especially after the August '07 2H patch, and that the quality of the THF community has a lot to do with that. For example there are too many THFs that care more about solo'ing than optimizing their damage and as a result they always underperform in group settings. Case in point the THFs that carried Azoth and nothing but Azoth for their main. Or the people that level THF thinking it will make them money.

For the same reason I'm just not a fan of carrying around bad daggers. Daggers that have situational use? Sure. But sub-optimal damage daggers "for their jollies" are bleh (Angr Harpe). I think the only way that THF gets the level of deference that DRK and SAM get (which they dont deserve atm) is for THF's to start topping parses regularly. I think for that reason the communiy coalescing around a recognized cookie cutter, the same way SAMs did with Hagun, would be beneficial.

This past week while my MNK friend was away I decided to catch up on some seal farming with my dual box whm. My thf has full af3+2 5/5 now with 85 mandau and been using twilight on the off hand. With GH/RR/AP, the thing is an absolute beast. Not to mention the almost unbelievable evasion procs THF gets at 90. If its not an undead NM, and you got access to a WHM, you could probably duo 90% of abyssea really, including some tier 2 NMs like the zone boss in altep.

Its a really nice change up to the point where I'm done screwing around with SA and doing it doggystyle to a mob. Get right in front and have at it.

Next up, gonna dual box me some caraboose and do a masamune for fun.

What's your best dmg u dealt with Mercy Stroke? My best was like 4,6k (sadly forgot str+ kila at mh and used only SA) with RR + VV + SA and still using 75- gear (except hands, i've replaced hecatomb for af3+1) + Mandau 80.
for offhand i have: rapidas sax (non-th required mobs), kila+1 str+9/att+20 (for mobs where i build tp-before fighting them)

so i think that mercy stroke still has a decent potencial even in abyss, except eviscerations go beyond 6,5k.

6k?


Pics or it didn't happen

well, what dmg does evisceration? min-max pls ^^

It would depend greatly on weapon and etc.

My Averages on NMs and junk are probably 1.5k~2,5k Unstacked. Higher if SA/TA'd.

on normal mobs 2k~3k IIRC =.=a

I don't pay enough attention for the above to be accurate and haven't played THF in about 2 weeks cause I took a small break due to becoming addicted to Minecraft.

But hey, My numbers are probably pretty average, Plus i never really try to e-peen.

min is 0 damage
max is a bit over 6k sounds right

I never really tried to epeen on regular mobs though.

And best off-hand for Mandau is the Twashtar, obviously. Twashtar occasionally being a stronger main-hand dagger should be outside the scope of this topic.

Minimum 0 damage is a given, and did not need to be stated. If you're seeing 0 more than when a large Stoneskin or physical shield is on the mob, then you have unfortunate luck.

Inside of Abyssea, even Evisceration isn't 6k strong. That's the kind of numbers you pull out when you brew. Unless you're getting very luckily, consistent Triple Attack procs, on every weaponskill you perform, as well as critical all of your hits AND hit all of them (Yes, even inside of Abyssea, the annoying Accuracy cap still exists), I don't believe 6k is anything more than once in a blue moon, and certainly not worth mentioning when asked what kind of damage Evisceration does. My extremely long point is:

POIDH. And even if it did, it's by no means a regular number. Inside of Abyssea, I usually do 2.4k~ without SATA, and 3.6k~ with.


Also, my highest Mercy Stroke (w/ Clement Skean) inside of Abby was 4100 with SATA and Assassin's Charge. Nothing incredible, I'm sure Evisceration would beat it with SA too, but I still find it nice when SATAing.

you shouldn't be posting here.

wearing full pink and wsing in a spike necklace makes you horribly gimp, even if you do have a mandau.

Anyone listening to Alukat is doing it wrong.

(granted, i don't know all that much about thf, but it's more than this guy...)

don't listen to Albelnox

she's just on her period

;;

She's not. He finally updated his item sets, but still not great, here is his ws gear (updated today):

Oh, and his TP set, also updated today.

nothing else to do as to stalk me? xD

well my best mercy stroke was 4,6k with SA (sadly no screenshot) only, should test it with Assassin's charge & trick attack and food when i have some time.
but the average dmg is approx 3,8k.
and another point a is u shouldn't compare SATA + AC Evisceration with SA + Mercy Stroke, of course evisceration wins that fight.
with some luck tomorrow finally the hecatomb cap +1 :D
EDIT: and teutates subligar maybe tomorrow or sunday too, and then i'll do more Mercy Strokes testings (and this time i don't forget the kila+2 with str+9 and att+20 at mh and will use food) so should add another str+37 and 152 attack (already debited the 18 att from tumbler trunks).
and well finally 2 free weeks (holiday /cheer) so can go for pyrosoul ring & ire torque+1 too which will add another str+9.
so now u can see i can increase my 4,1k dmg and i guess SA + Mercy Stroke can get the same dmg as SA + AC Eviscerations. (this is just a pre-calculated will test it as soon as i got all the items.

2nd Edit: the angel's ring has acc+6 , just if anyone wonders why i tp with a chr ring ^^

No reason to forget AC, it's an important damage boost. Merely differentiate whether it is up or not when discussing damage.

Not to be a downer but on dnc my AVERAGE is what you are claiming your stacked average is, or at least very close. Even on pierce resistant mobs (thinking dolls in altep) my average is over 2.5k, up to 4k~ average on pierce weak mobs. In addition, a friend of mine with very good gear as a thf, i have seen consistantly average around 4.6k single stack, up to 5.3k with luck on triples. Considering that there are still improvements he could make, i wouldnt say 6k evis, fully stacked, is outside the realms of possibility as an average.

Original question:



http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l7/Jayjs20/ffxi_20110101_134435.png


Irrelevant since he's asking for max.

And 6k isn't a hard number to hit, I can hit it regularly if I buff up properly(which never happens).

Anything else?

Go brew, SS damage, post and act like it's normal damage, trollface.jpg, profit.

Ya telling me a brewing THF does 6k Evis on a piercing weak normal mob while using RR/GH?

What kinda thfs do you hang around with.