Fatigue System Explained.

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2010-09-08
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Fatigue System explained.
 Unicorn.Hardwood
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By Unicorn.Hardwood 2010-09-16 08:05:07
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Spo
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Family hours exist? lol, I avoid the *** out of mine.

Now thats talkin like a true MMO player, or every i know 0
 Asura.Meowzma
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By Asura.Meowzma 2010-09-16 08:08:22
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Ifrit.Eikechi said:
and this "cross disciple skill" system sounds like ***.. you mean to tell me I can have a lvl lets say 40 gladiator using level 40 pugilist skills with no nerf? then wtf would be the point of being a main job in any class, when you can just lvl them all and seemingly be god? lol

There is a nerf. From personal experience, the recast delay on (for sake of argument) "subjob" abilities, it feels like an extra 50%, and the actual damage dealt also feels like -50% (I have no solid proof, just from my personal experience).

Also, you're limited to how many spells and abilities you can equip (just like a BLU, some cost more to equip than others, some being free to equip).

Not all abilities work cross-class, for example: Thaumaturge gets an ability to recharge their MP out of combat, this didn't work on my Pugilist. :(
 Unicorn.Hardwood
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By Unicorn.Hardwood 2010-09-16 08:10:03
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Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Bismarck.Elanabelle said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
If you can only play 1 or 2 hrs a day, you shouldn't be playing an MMO.


Yeah. But if we play more than 1-2 hours, how will we have time to browse the mall for capri-length jeans, paint our home exteriors pink, or ride our phat 2-wheelers down the strip?

Do not forget masturbation! How can we masturbate if we play more than 1-2 hours a day?!

I see someone hasnt got with the times. Its all about box'n and box'n hardN
 
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 Sylph.Belmonth
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By Sylph.Belmonth 2010-09-16 08:14:37
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Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Sylph.Belmonth said:
it will be like subjobs anyways.

Never ending sub job leveling?! Where do I sign up?!

You don't have to, but a lot of the other classes abilities are very handy for solo. Like Second Wind and Bloodbath
 Sylph.Tigerwoods
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2010-09-16 08:29:15
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The fatigue still sucks. I'd rather just grind out the subjobs and not have to worry about them. Gear once, get to max subbable level, sell the stuff.

Don't want to worry about gearing and farming to gear x number of jobs at once, where I could be focusing that in my main job.
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By semimmortal 2010-09-16 08:31:40
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Sylph.Belmonth said:
Pandemonium.Spicyryan said:
Sylph.Belmonth said:
it will be like subjobs anyways.

Never ending sub job leveling?! Where do I sign up?!

You don't have to, but a lot of the other classes abilities are very handy for solo. Like Second Wind and Bloodbath
Nice example of why:

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 Sylph.Belmonth
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By Sylph.Belmonth 2010-09-16 09:08:25
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
The fatigue still sucks. I'd rather just grind out the subjobs and not have to worry about them. Gear once, get to max subbable level, sell the stuff.

Don't want to worry about gearing and farming to gear x number of jobs at once, where I could be focusing that in my main job.

I actually think it's better at this point for me, what they would do anyways if they allowed unlimited leveling, is just increase the exp by a bunch like FFXI was before several updates, you needed about 72k exp to level? Then we are back to people complaining the insane ammount of grinding needed.
I rather have limited exping and decent progress, than a grindfest that I usually did half a sleep, or altabbed till I had TP, or watch Tv and have TP.... etc. I think it's why towards the end I was more inclined to BRD and RNG since requiered more input than other classes.

Edit: This is what killed Aion too, besides the lack of content, sure you could quickly get to max level at 50, but it needed insane ammounts of exp like you could only get a level after 39 of purely grinding nonstop for a whole day, and in the end only the hardcore people (And I mean hardcore, people that din't sleep for a whole day or two) managed to quickly hit 50, and they got bored because there were barely any other players at that level.
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By Asura.Kosmik 2010-09-16 09:18:20
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Unicorn.Hardwood said:
Sorry for the non-sentrical fuming but I am terribly disappointed in how ffxi2 turned out(played beta)
I think that's the issue with a lot of people.
It's not FFXI 2.0 It is FFXIV.

I was concerned and irritated with this system at first also, but after playing and realizing the potential one has in leveling multiple (if not all classes) I'm not concerned at all with it.
If you want to just level one job, you aren't gonna do very well in this game.
Also don't forget, this is a MMO. If the system doesn't work out very well, it can be adjusted and updated.
This game is an infant with a great deal of potential.

In the end, you can never satisfy everyone. You can satisfy the few or you can satisfy the many. Seems SE opted for the later by implementing a new and innovative system (as the always do).

If you aren't fond of the idea, and don't wish to give it a chance, the simple solution would be to not play.
For every whiner there are 5 others who aren't complaining or at least willing to give it a chance.

But I guess it's just easier to cry on forums about how the 20+ year old, highly acclaimed and successful company doesn't know what they are doing. =P
 Asura.Meowzma
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By Asura.Meowzma 2010-09-16 09:29:37
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Sylph.Belmonth said:
I usually did half a sleep, or altabbed till I had TP, or watch Tv and have TP.... etc. I think it's why towards the end I was more inclined to BRD and RNG since requiered more input than other classes.

Exactly same reason why I've leveled BRD, but then you get into abyssea and you're just casting ballad over and over and over.

Sylph.Belmonth said:
Edit: This is what killed Aion too, besides the lack of content, sure you could quickly get to max level at 50, but it needed insane ammounts of exp like you could only get a level after 39 of purely grinding nonstop for a whole day, and in the end only the hardcore people (And I mean hardcore, people that din't sleep for a whole day or two) managed to quickly hit 50, and they got bored because there were barely any other players at that level.

Because it's a Korean game, that's how they seem to like it. Same goes for Lineage 2 (but I've never played it) and RF Online, which was the same after 40; after an hour of grinding non-stop, you gained about 0.02% of your level. Also, I might add, this was on the EU/NA version, which was 2x the exp/kill than the Korean version.
 
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 Asura.Meowzma
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By Asura.Meowzma 2010-09-16 11:11:26
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I haven't actually made the effort to farm those Crests yet lol.

Do BRD even have time to buff when pulling? I barely get enough time to cast shadows when I pull on THF or DNC.
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By Fenrir.Jumeya 2010-09-16 11:39:43
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Just to note on the potency of subjob abilities.

You can increase your affinity to your jobs by purchasing "skill" with guild marks. By increasing your proficiency, you increase the effectiveness and decrease the recast of abilities non-native to your class


You equip these proficiencies the same as you do abilities, there's only 10 slots for such stats,

Proficiency caps at 100 (or 100%) and you buy increments of 10% in beta.
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By Flionheart 2010-09-16 11:44:20
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I gave up trying to explain that this is just a timesink like every other MMO has.

Haters gonna hate.
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 Valefor.Lluna
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By Valefor.Lluna 2010-09-16 12:03:00
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Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
The fatigue still sucks. I'd rather just grind out the subjobs and not have to worry about them. Gear once, get to max subbable level, sell the stuff.

Don't want to worry about gearing and farming to gear x number of jobs at once, where I could be focusing that in my main job.

Looks like your finding excuses to not play the next generation of MMO, well, nobody is forcing you to play, and good luck on your shitty 7 years old game? lol, and have fun soloing AV. LOL
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By Flionheart 2010-09-16 12:04:04
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Valefor.Lluna said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
The fatigue still sucks. I'd rather just grind out the subjobs and not have to worry about them. Gear once, get to max subbable level, sell the stuff.

Don't want to worry about gearing and farming to gear x number of jobs at once, where I could be focusing that in my main job.

Looks like your finding excuses to not play the next generation of MMO, well, nobody is forcing you to play, and good luck on your shitty 7 years old game? lol, and have fun soloing AV. LOL

3/10
 Sylph.Pwrlessgirl
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By Sylph.Pwrlessgirl 2010-09-16 13:16:05
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Asura.Meowzma said:
I haven't actually made the effort to farm those Crests yet lol. Do BRD even have time to buff when pulling? I barely get enough time to cast shadows when I pull on THF or DNC.

Did abyssea K.H. last nite 80-85 on Buggard camp on south of conflux #8. If you go BRD/nin with 4DD's, and a mage in your party (that is out of 18 ppl alliance) you shall be able to do fine.

When I did Tahrongi on bats BRD/nin was simple.. just macro Valor Minuet and Victory March separately. TBH 95% of time i fish with Carnage Elegy, only used foe or horde lula to sleep links. Also once per fight Pianisimo + BalladII the mage and PLD if applicable on the next fight (two separate pianisimo with their names on it).

I find it most bards just want to come brd/whm to sit there and cast 2-3 songs all night. YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS? I have to get a THF or Ranger to loose their TP, and Weapon skills, and Attacks so they can go around fishing for mobs. If you go brd/nin you can have both FISHERMAN + BUFFS.
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By Fairy.Victoire 2010-09-16 13:35:30
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Asura.Meowzma said:
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
If you can only play 1 or 2 hrs a day, you shouldn't be playing an MMO.
Who are you to decide how people spend their free time? I know people who work on an oil rig, offshore engineers, they work 2 weeks on deck, then have 2 weeks leave. Are you suggesting they can't play either because they only get 2 weeks out of a month to play? In the above posted video, at 3:35, Steve says "With 18 Disciplines to choose from, you will never run out of skill points to gain", however, Lancer and Weaver appear twice, leaving only 16 Disciplines. Where does that leave this image? I personally have no problem with this fatigue system, as I know the threshold will decrease as I work/sleep, though it does clearly illustrate at 3:20 that the threshold will decrease very slowly on inactive jobs. I feel the only people who have a problem with the above system have the intentions of playing 15+ hours a day. Need I say more?

This. I was about to post this and kept reading.
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-09-16 13:54:42
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I don't agree with their decision, but I'm withholding judgment until I see it work in a practical scenario.

I would rather see the positive logic scenario (boost casual players so they are competitive with hardcore players) than the negative one (hold back hardcore players so they're closer to casual players.) That being said, the former one is WoW's method, and maybe they didn't want to directly copy it.

However, the pure self-important vitriol with which hardcore players are attacking this is just incredible.

FFXI was the last MMO to linearly reward hardcore time investment over casual play. That was seven years ago, and the MMO landscape and market has changed. Budgets are now too high to pay for themselves off the (vanishingly small, by comparison) number of potential hardcore customers alone. You guys are too expensive, you don't pay any more than casual players, you're notoriously impossible to keep happy, and there just aren't enough of you.

The only way to pay for these new generation MMO's (which cost, on average, 10-20 times as much as XI did) is to attract casual players as a primary marketing strategy in addition to hardcore, and the only way to attract them is to provide some mechanism to make them competitive.
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 Asura.Dameshi
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By Asura.Dameshi 2010-09-16 14:01:13
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
I would rather see the positive logic scenario (boost casual players so they are competitive with hardcore players) than the negative one (hold back hardcore players so they're closer to casual players.) That being said, the former one is WoW's method, and maybe they didn't want to directly copy it.
That's what I figured. WoW has the rested exp to award time away from the game. Aion also has a form of bonus exp when you log off for awhile. I think they're aiming for something different, while still having a similar effect. You really could say that the WoW and Aion method is a 'penalty' to hardcore players, as they get less bonus exp from playing more than casual players. Just need to take a positive approach.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-09-16 14:08:17
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Here, let's do the numbers ourselves. My best ballpark figures from experience in the industry:

A reasonable development (pre-launch) budget for a current-generation MMO is approximately $100 million. (FFXI's budget was probably about $10M. WoW's current investment is, reasonable guess, about $500M. The Star Wars: Old Republic game is currently burning over $1M per week in development.)

The average monthly subscription is about $15/month.

Once you've launched, the overhead from paying for a Live team, plus hosting and bandwidth costs, is about $10 of those $15, so you're making about $5/month off each player.

That requires you to have a stable 1.6 million subscribers to just make your money back in the first year. And that's assuming you have no additional people working on expansions or any further content after launch.

Unless you can guarantee profitability (not breaking even) within the first year or two, your parent company will never even give you the $100 million to make your game in the first place. You must somehow guarantee them, from the moment you submit your design proposal, that you can provide that.

FFXI at its peak usage was about 500-600,000 users, almost all of which were hardcore due to the nature of the game design. For most of its launch and long-tail history, the number is estimated to be about 200-250k or less, so you can't use that 500k number to divide over all time. Even if you attracted back every hardcore player that was in FFXI at its peak, and held them, it would take you over 3 years to break even.

So, you need to find another ~1M users to play your game from the moment it launches. The hardcore MMO market in most Western countries (and Japan) is now saturated: almost every potential hardcore MMO player is already playing an MMO. This number will thus not increase unless your game is good enough to steal some from other MMO's, but you don't want to bank on that.

So you have to tap into the only resource that isn't yet saturated: casual gamers. And the only way you can tap into them is to provide them a method to feel they are just as competitive a hardcore. This needs to be written into your game design from square one and be available on launch day. How do you do that?

Better come up with a good answer quick, or you're not getting your $100 million to even start your game.

Go!
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By Artemicion 2010-09-16 14:10:10
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I think ultimately, if you enjoy the game as a whole rather than strictly playing for the competitive endgame scenario of it, no penalty or freedom to hardcore players will prevent you for playing month in and month out. I'd like to think at least some people out there play because it's the most enjoyable and overall a better game than what is currently available.

I love endgame as much as the next guy, but I rather do it in XI than WoW, even if I could access such scenarios significantly easier in WoW.
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 Kujata.Maugris
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By Kujata.Maugris 2010-09-16 14:11:05
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
FFXI was the last MMO to linearly reward hardcore time investment over casual play. That was seven years ago, and the MMO landscape and market has changed. Budgets are now too high to pay for themselves off the (vanishingly small, by comparison) number of potential hardcore customers alone. You guys are too expensive, you don't pay any more than casual players, you're notoriously impossible to keep happy, and there just aren't enough of you.

Thank God you pointed this out. Despite the vocal cacophony the extreme may make, the video game market is much, much wider than blog trolling tweens-twenty somethings. I think if you actually ask you'll find that a lot of your gaming companions are gen x-ers people between say mid-twenties through thirties. At this age, beer swilling all-nighters followed up by beer swilling all-dayers (because you skipped classes, don't have a job, don't have kids, etc.) are no longer possible, feasible, enjoyable, etc.

I like that they are actually catering to a market that A.) Doesn't ceaselessly complain about EVERYTHING, B.) Has little time, but a strong desire to play and enjoy a massive game regularly, C.) Is not paying any less to play (since there are more of us out there we actually pay more of the overall market share than hard-core nerd-ragers).
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 Lakshmi.Jaerik
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-09-16 14:15:30
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Kujata.Maugris said:
Despite the vocal cacophony the extreme may make, the video game market is much, much wider than blog trolling tweens-twenty somethings.
You still need them. The hardcore players provide that sense of value for your items, and provide the upper level of acheivement to push the edge of your content. They're still necessary for the health of a virtual world. Without them, you get say... Farmville.

You just can't exclusively rely on them for your revenue anymore. You probably can't even rely on them for a substantial part of it.
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 Diabolos.Chupacabra
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By Diabolos.Chupacabra 2010-09-16 14:17:45
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Curious, how much do initial sales of the games factor into the first year profitability? $50-80 for the initial sales, estimating what, $15 for the actual printing and shipping costs per DVD (I have no idea how much it costs to make a box art and ship it.)?

That has to factor in somewhere. I know for a fact I bought the Conan MMO when it was released, but never played it past the free month.
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By Lakshmi.Jaerik 2010-09-16 14:20:18
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You'd be surprised. The lot of retail box sales go to the printing, packaging, and shipping companies. The bulk then goes to the retail company. Whenever you see a game sitting prominently on a shelf, or on an aisle end cap, it's not because the retail company thought it was cool enough to put there: it's because the developer probably paid about $100,000 to have it put there.

I know that as of about 10 years ago (the last time I did games that really 'shipped' on disk as their primary delivery method), the developers only made about $4-5 off each retail copy sold.
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 Fenrir.Schutz
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By Fenrir.Schutz 2010-09-16 14:21:07
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Obviously the solution is for gaming companies to encourage higher population growth in target market countries to start raising gamers now, to engage in daily denial-of-service attacks on competitor products, and tap that lucrative-but-untouched 65+ year old retired senior gaming demographic. All of those pensioners stuck in nursing homes all day long with disposable incomes...instant hardcore gamers (if you market to them!) BAM--revenue!
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By Phoenix.Oumura 2010-09-16 14:22:09
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
You'd be surprised. The lot of retail box sales go to the printing, packaging, and shipping companies. The bulk then goes to the retail company. Whenever you see a game sitting prominently on a shelf, or on an aisle end cap, it's not because the retail company thought it was cool enough to put there: it's because the developer probably paid about $100,000 to have it put there.

I know that as of about 10 years ago (the last time I did games that really 'shipped' on disk as their primary delivery method), the developers only made about $4-5 off each retail copy sold.
Staggeringly much lower than I ever would have thought...christ.
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By Diabolos.Chupacabra 2010-09-16 14:22:51
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Lakshmi.Jaerik said:
You'd be surprised. The lot of retail box sales go to the printing, packaging, and shipping companies. The bulk then goes to the retail company. Whenever you see a game sitting prominently on a shelf, or on an aisle end cap, it's not because the retail company thought it was cool enough to put there: it's because the developer probably paid about $100,000 to have it put there.

I know that as of about 10 years ago (the last time I did games that really 'shipped' on disk as their primary delivery method), the developers only made about $4-5 off each retail copy sold.

Ouch... no wonder so many game companies are pushing digital download copies nowadays. Must save a small fortune for them.
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