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Mainly, for the real RDM, but,... Ninja nerfga.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 7
By Asura.Dreamercreamer 2010-06-26 15:06:53
Ramuh.Ilvex said: Redmage as a whole isn't dead, just one of the more enjoyable aspects of rdm, tanking, it's dead and gone, there is no way to tank in a viable fashion on rdm anymore.
Maybe after this specific update, yes. However, we'll see if they bring back our tanking ability. If not, it's not a big loss. ^^
Bahamut.Paulus said: I was hoping for a new enfeebling spell like plague or maybe a really weak version of break. However I'm very happy with the update and don't think we got shafted. Now if they hadn't given us composure some time back I'd certainly be on this band wagon.
I agree with you on the composure end. If they didn't have Composure then everyone that complains about this update would have a leg to stand on. Right now, though, they do not.
 Ramuh.Ilvex
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 202
By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-06-26 15:15:41
Asura.Dreamercreamer said: Ramuh.Ilvex said: Redmage as a whole isn't dead, just one of the more enjoyable aspects of rdm, tanking, it's dead and gone, there is no way to tank in a viable fashion on rdm anymore.
Maybe after this specific update, yes. However, we'll see if they bring back our tanking ability. If not, it's not a big loss. ^^
Maybe not a big loss to you, but this was one of my favorite parts about rdm, I am pretty saddened that if this doesn't change I'll never be able to accomplish one of my "game" goals of tankign JoL, may not be the biggest thing to everyone but was to me.
 Lakshmi.Glaciont
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 750
By Lakshmi.Glaciont 2010-06-26 15:21:26
It's not like RDMs are useless... the OP makes it sound like they are!
Why.... who can still convert, refresh and cure while leveling up 40 to 79 :)
Bismarck.Rinako
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1193
By Bismarck.Rinako 2010-06-26 15:37:12
Idk, RDM can still tank it'll just take a hell of a lot more work to keep hate. I honestly think it's kinda good we lost the enm on what we did cause honestly. There wasn't anything a RDM couldn't do and so many jobs are limited on the capabilities they have. I don't see it as a issue cause there are some times the enm on those spells weren't helpful but there are others when they were.
We don't know what they have in store for rdm from 80-99. Maybe they'll add new spells to RDM that'll help tanking and maybe they won't. It'll be something we'll have to work with and accept; it doesn't really change the game just makes it a lot harder to work with.
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 185
By Sylph.Reaplife 2010-06-26 15:39:49
Two things: Have to go to work soon, as such I only read half of the posts on the first page, so I may be posting stuff that has already been said. Also, I tend to rant, so I apologize.
Honestly, as RDM is my only job at 75, eventually 80, and I'm rather pleased with the update. Yeah, RDM didn't get much in this one, but in a 24 level spread it's likely going to get a lot more. This update, some of our subs received a nice boost: /sch will make buffing party easier (accession + Enspell II, anyone?), as well as mass enfeebling targets, /blm (okay, mainly for fun) opens up chainspell warp IIing annoying members, /nin since we get another fastcast tier Utsusemi timers are lower, and /dnc samba's stack enspell II's providing enspell damage with aspir samba to keep MP topped off. We are starting to get Tier IV, which will likely be a god send, and SE said we'll get new Enfeebs, another refresh tier, and pictures showing what looks like another enspell tier. Everyone that doesn't like it should get over it. If things still suck at 99, then ***, until then patience will be a virtue.
In my honest opinion, NIN (Others with Dualwield), SAM (Lowering of sekkanoki), and WHM (SCH and RDM already beat it, /sch and /rdm got a lot more powerful no matter who is subbing them) got hit a lot harder by this update than RDM.
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6173
By Bahamut.Stanflame 2010-06-26 16:41:57
Siren.Miayoko said: Cata it's no use your in a thread full of butthurt RDM's that no matter what SE does they will whine and complain they got shafted and screwed over somehow.
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Bismarck.Dierdreh
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 383
By Bismarck.Dierdreh 2010-06-26 17:43:24
I skimmed through this forum and I have very briefish answers. Being a 75 RDM, I read the update and said "Oh, well, RDM didn't get any DRASTIC changes" but that didn't bother me in the least since RDM is already... I dunno... Pretty effin' powerful already as is? (its not a melee or tank of course but RDM is what it is and it does its job well). I mean, a cool new ability or job trait would be nice but come on, its level 80. Five levels more. I wasn't expecting much. I was joyed with SCH starting to become useful as a sub job and most likely at 99 will become one of the main sub jobs of a RDM. Do not forget also at 80 RDM will get warp II sub BLM unless SE said no so thats not so bad. Would be nice to D2 people or CS D2. (could be a bad thing depending on the situation >.> ) Anyway, By the end of all these updates RDM will be just as important as it has been and will be just as powerful or better.
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-26 17:56:19
Well I hit 80 this morning and I think this update was awesome for RDM's. You do get D2 as sub BLM dierdreh. /whm stona. /sch accession. /nin(ugh) faster timers on shadows. You also at 80 get increased fast cast (which is noticable!) 2 tier 4 dmg spells which in my nuke build was doing decent dmg. Regen2(secks) Protect5(see regen2), oh yea and 3 more base MND(which would have taken 18 merits otherwise to obtain), 2 more base INT(I think its 2).
You can't change whats given to you, so instead of everyone spending all their time and energy QQ'ing why not go utilize what you have? (which for RDM, is a ton.)
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Server: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2328
By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-06-26 18:50:34
You obviously don't tank, we get it, RDM still got new stuff, and there's still 19 levels to go, the problem is SEs random decision to kill RDM tanks.
Cerberus.Eltreille
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1
By Cerberus.Eltreille 2010-06-27 00:22:17
All whining aside, RDM tanking was quite fun. I really don't understand the reasoning behind the nerf since it's not like rdm's all over were taking over tanking. It was simply something some of us enjoyed doing under specific circumtances. Honestly, we have another 19 levels to go, lots of new gear (especially enmity related), new mobs and many job combinations. I look forward to finding a way to keep rdm tanking, half the fun of this game is figuring stuff out, oherwise... It's just a big chat room >.>
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Odin.Arnor
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
Posts: 150
By Odin.Arnor 2010-06-27 00:36:13
i still dont get how job abilities like the afflatus whm abilities and yonin and innin are kept to main job only yet people will get convert and refresh as a sub then are given sekkanoki... thats 2 jobs that imo lost part of thier identity while nin and whm keep abilities that would ahve made more sense to sub.. and its not just rdm nin/drk and pld/rdm both took a hit on tanking with this nerf too.. just makes no sense to me
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-27 03:00:30
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: You obviously don't tank, we get it, RDM still got new stuff, and there's still 19 levels to go, the problem is SEs random decision to kill RDM tanks.
yes you're right. it was killed for ppl who lack the creativity to be a good tank to begin with. You do realize there are other ways to grab hate right? i have tanked on rdm plenty of times. I will continue to also, because im creative enough to still keep hate even though some hate tools were nerfed. The fact that ppl think rdm tanking is dead shows how little of the tools of hate they used to begin with.
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Ramuh.Ilvex
Server: Ramuh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 202
By Ramuh.Ilvex 2010-06-27 13:37:39
Siren.Catabolic said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: You obviously don't tank, we get it, RDM still got new stuff, and there's still 19 levels to go, the problem is SEs random decision to kill RDM tanks.
yes you're right. it was killed for ppl who lack the creativity to be a good tank to begin with. You do realize there are other ways to grab hate right? i have tanked on rdm plenty of times. I will continue to also, because im creative enough to still keep hate even though some hate tools were nerfed. The fact that ppl think rdm tanking is dead shows how little of the tools of hate they used to begin with.
BS outside of helaing, a horrible method of grabbing hate (mp wise), damage, again MP is an issue with that too, you as a rdm/nin are left with the following options for CE: Tier 2 enspells which generate 80 CE / 240 VE (pitiful compared to what used to be our other options).... yep that's it.... yeah you could nuke to hold hate.... lol or after you drop 3-4 cure4 you'll have a decent chunk of hate, of coarse you'll have no MP either at that time. It's not about being creative to tank, like you're magicly fing better then every other tanking rdm out there and have some enmity tools we don't have, it's just not viable anymore.
Can we solo still? sure we can who gives a rats *** about enmity when solo though. Can we backline or main heal? sure that just became a ***tone easier honestly, this update will create a new breed of dumbass rdm's that have no concept of a hate threshold.
This update make one of the first things I used to tell newb rdm's & blm's in the dunes, don't start the fight with blind lol, go in a lower hate order, but thats *** pointless now *** spam w/e the hell you want, rdm has no hate tools so it w/e now
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Server: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2328
By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-06-27 13:45:16
Siren.Catabolic said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: You obviously don't tank, we get it, RDM still got new stuff, and there's still 19 levels to go, the problem is SEs random decision to kill RDM tanks.
yes you're right. it was killed for ppl who lack the creativity to be a good tank to begin with. You do realize there are other ways to grab hate right? i have tanked on rdm plenty of times. I will continue to also, because im creative enough to still keep hate even though some hate tools were nerfed. The fact that ppl think rdm tanking is dead shows how little of the tools of hate they used to begin with.
You're still missing the point. Do enlighten us with your creativity though, I can think of cure cheats, and that's it. They can be used, but PLD isn't efficient doing that, they dump a lot of MP, RDM would have to dump even more to match PLDs enmity gain. The point of a RDM tank was to be able to tank with less support than a traditional tank would need (hasting/freshing self). Now they nerfed Aquaveil too. Share your creative tanking with us, only suggestion thus far is to have a low lvl SMN accompany RDMs everywhere...
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-27 13:45:21
Siren.Catabolic said: Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: You obviously don't tank, we get it, RDM still got new stuff, and there's still 19 levels to go, the problem is SEs random decision to kill RDM tanks.
yes you're right. it was killed for ppl who lack the creativity to be a good tank to begin with. You do realize there are other ways to grab hate right? i have tanked on rdm plenty of times. I will continue to also, because im creative enough to still keep hate even though some hate tools were nerfed. The fact that ppl think rdm tanking is dead shows how little of the tools of hate they used to begin with. Show me an efficient method of CE gain that still remains open to RDM.
Oh wait, you can't.
Level 10 mules don't count, can't take them everywhere. Cure cheats don't either, terribly inefficient CE gain.
You're arguably worse than an unengaged PLD now, and by a decent margin. You just went from top tier unengaged tank to third tier at best in a single update.
RDM's advantage was extreme durability and lack of reliance on support. The first remains, but you're going to be more reliant on support than other jobs now because you have to dump all your MP on low-enmity (relatively speaking) cure cheats to generate CE.
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Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 493
By Siren.Catabolic 2010-06-27 14:05:58
you realize there are items that when used create hate on all mobs yea? ever used a hi pot tank? amongst other things?
I didn't say it got easier. I said it still can be done.
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 Asura.Steam
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 63
By Asura.Steam 2010-06-27 14:14:33
Lancenageem said: I forgot to post about the SCH Debate ~vs~ RDM Enfeebling "Skill". Sitting at my current Lv77 with 346 Enfeebling Skill, being able to still add: Nash Pants, Alt Cape, Earring & Advocate's(crap)Pigaches that would be another 16 for a total of 362 currently. In order for another job to have nearly that skill they sacrifice the INT & MND needed to extend the duration and effectivness of the spells. I Choose not to own the Earring & The Advocrap Pigaches and I dont own the Nash Pants or Alt. Cape b/c fate is a cruel ***.
Yes the skill matters a lot. YES YES YES it does but having the *** to back it up counts equally as much. By the time you stack & stack what it would require on another job, to reach anything near a RDM you just have skill without any umph.
Attack this comment as you see fit with the barrage of c&p factoids you may find.
Honestly I'm just still pissed at the original post & a few that followed for being a WHAA Fest. Really.
lol
Server: Ifrit
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2328
By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2010-06-27 14:17:01
Siren.Catabolic said: you realize there are items that when used create hate on all mobs yea? ever used a hi pot tank? amongst other things?
I didn't say it got easier. I said it still can be done.
You're kidding right? If hi-pots grant any enmity it's sure going to be low.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-27 14:23:28
Siren.Catabolic said: you realize there are items that when used create hate on all mobs yea? ever used a hi pot tank? amongst other things?
I didn't say it got easier. I said it still can be done. Sure, and a PUP/WHM could tank with enough support. It's not easy, but it can be done.
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Gilgamesh.Nezea
Server: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 200
By Gilgamesh.Nezea 2010-06-28 00:00:25
I've actually heard Hi-Potions generate a pretty decent amount of enmity but I've never done any testing or seen confirmation of it myself.
Cerberus.Rayik
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 924
By Cerberus.Rayik 2010-06-29 07:35:17
I've seen a lot of ppl QQing over rdm not getting enough from the update, but Catabolic mentioned some really good things, and I just noticed something while skimming for Evoliths in the "Fast Cast" page:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Fast_Cast
Yes, we got Fast Cast IV at level 76. 5% more Fast Cast, as in, the stuff end game gear has that we crave. That and Regen2 were enough of a boost for me, let alone all the new subjob love we get when we hit 80. Just wanted to throw that out there, I haven't seen anyone else mention it(I apologize if you did!).
 Ragnarok.Vitaru
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 255
By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2010-06-29 08:07:28
While tanking HNMs on RDM we usually bring DDs/thf, and the new fast cast is more than enough to keep shadows on. If you are talking about kiting hate, the enmity gear is sufficient to get you hate with cure cheat.
Stop QQing, rdm's ability to tank and kite wasn't from the hate generated from spells. it was from the fast cast and survivability tools they have. Even if they increased the enmity from the spells they nerfed instead. a full enmity PLD can blow you off with a sentinel.
Something to clear about the 3 main tanking jobs:RDM,PLD,NIN.
Survivability: RDM/NIN>PLD/NIN>NIN/DRK.
Hate management: PLD>NIN>RDM.
In summary: The reason why they nerfed RDM spell's hate is because with Fastcast 4 rdm will be really overpowered.
P.S. some servers still live in the dark and use PLD onry tank.
Bahamut.Habs
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 58
By Bahamut.Habs 2010-06-29 08:35:22
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-29 13:41:03
Ragnarok.Vitaru said: While tanking HNMs on RDM we usually bring DDs/thf, and the new fast cast is more than enough to keep shadows on. If you are talking about kiting hate, the enmity gear is sufficient to get you hate with cure cheat.
Stop QQing, rdm's ability to tank and kite wasn't from the hate generated from spells. it was from the fast cast and survivability tools they have. Even if they increased the enmity from the spells they nerfed instead. a full enmity PLD can blow you off with a sentinel.
Something to clear about the 3 main tanking jobs:RDM,PLD,NIN.
Survivability: RDM/NIN>PLD/NIN>NIN/DRK.
Hate management: PLD>NIN>RDM.
In summary: The reason why they nerfed RDM spell's hate is because with Fastcast 4 rdm will be really overpowered.
P.S. some servers still live in the dark and use PLD onry tank. Wrong. RDM blew PLD out of the water in enmity generation. Making Sentinel the cornerstone of your argument is pretty weak given that it's on a 4:10 recast after merits and you may need it for other purposes. RDM's ability to spam high CE and VE spells nonstop made it unrivaled in overall enmity generation. Extra survivability and reduced dependence on support made it even better still.
If you really want to get into who gets the most hate when they blow long-recast abilities, hi2u BLU. Diffusion > Exuviation with a strong enmity set will get you more than halfway to capped hate and you can easily cap from there in short order. Hell, for that matter RDM could just Chainspell and cap hate easily enough.
Also, DD/THF with RDMs? Am confused.
Ragnarok.Vitaru
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 255
By Ragnarok.Vitaru 2010-06-29 13:45:24
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Ragnarok.Vitaru said: While tanking HNMs on RDM we usually bring DDs/thf, and the new fast cast is more than enough to keep shadows on. If you are talking about kiting hate, the enmity gear is sufficient to get you hate with cure cheat.
Stop QQing, rdm's ability to tank and kite wasn't from the hate generated from spells. it was from the fast cast and survivability tools they have. Even if they increased the enmity from the spells they nerfed instead. a full enmity PLD can blow you off with a sentinel.
Something to clear about the 3 main tanking jobs:RDM,PLD,NIN.
Survivability: RDM/NIN>PLD/NIN>NIN/DRK.
Hate management: PLD>NIN>RDM.
In summary: The reason why they nerfed RDM spell's hate is because with Fastcast 4 rdm will be really overpowered.
P.S. some servers still live in the dark and use PLD onry tank. Wrong. RDM blew PLD out of the water in enmity generation. Making Sentinel the cornerstone of your argument is pretty weak given that it's on a 4:10 recast after merits and you may need it for other purposes. RDM's ability to spam high CE and VE spells nonstop made it unrivaled in overall enmity generation. Extra survivability and reduced dependence on support made it even better still.
If you really want to get into who gets the most hate when they blow long-recast abilities, hi2u BLU. Diffusion > Exuviation with a strong enmity set will get you more than halfway to capped hate and you can easily cap from there in short order. Hell, for that matter RDM could just Chainspell and cap hate easily enough.
Also, DD/THF with RDMs? Am confused.
I noticed you usually speak without thinking on most of your replies. Please level a real tanking job before starting to teach people and spread wrong info.
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-06-29 13:48:28
Ad hominem in two separate threads, nice. Do continue.
Gilgamesh.Nezea
Server: Gilgamesh
Game: FFXI
Posts: 200
By Gilgamesh.Nezea 2010-06-29 13:54:43
Bahamut.Habs said: o ya btw enspell 2,pro 5 and regen 2 are ***.dont talk about those spells or your an idiot.
o ya btw if you're going to call someone an idiot you could at least make yourself not look like one by learning the difference between "your" and "you're."
In any case either you're trolling or you really are just an idiot because Regen II is pretty awesome if you actually have a clue how to heal...
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Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4554
By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-06-29 14:18:52
Regen 2 is ***? Hell, I was using Regen1 a lot...
Quote: Please level a real tanking job before starting to teach people and spread wrong info.
What is a "real tanking job"?
Sentinel for enmity? Rarely if ever is this necessary. I tend to use it for damage mitigation and that's it... minus odd things like hate reset moves.
Those DD/THFs with the RDM could be DD/WARs or whatever with a PLD and the fight would go a lot quicker.
BLU is also a very underrated tank.
Necro Bump Detected!
[87 days between previous and next post]
Diabolos.Karisa
Server: Diabolos
Game: FFXI
Posts: 168
By Diabolos.Karisa 2010-09-24 20:30:01
I dont know why anyone would complain tbh. im 2-3manning almost everything as RDM/NIN nowadays. Refresh II doesnt last as long as I like but im never out of MP. You can still -tank- but low man shite and it will pay off (assuming you have traverser stones... Ive been pretty lucky now, talking of which YYYYYAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYY Estoqueur's Collar!!!!!!!!!!! =D
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Where, in the grand scheme of things, does RDM sit now(as level 80)?
This is a serious question, and it's directed towards those who actually care about RDM(If you don't care about RDM, you're gonaa tl;dr; And I have words for you at the end, if you can get that far. "tl;dr;" people are kinda a joke anyways.). What do we still have, compared to any other job? I'm having a hard time finding our purpose post-75.
The plain and simple truth is, RDM has had a LOT of potential in it. And it's been tapped, time and again, by good players. RDM has been not only almost completely neglected this update, it was also specifically nerfed... And specifically neglected. Ya know how great that 5/tic refre
RDM was stripped of tanking... The closest thing the job had to what a lot of us consider the job to be by it's history... The traditional melee mage.
The feature that was unique to RDM as a mage in the game, MP endurance, was handed to anything that subs RDM. (Much akin to how Samurai had self-SCing handed away at ease...)
I have to make this statement. SE had a choice here. Things were off kilter. Jobs had their roles overshadowed by other jobs.
What has SE done as a fix? Taken the easy way out. They handed every job in the game that can/will make use of it, the aspects that made those "elite" jobs elite.
Will it make much difference in the grand scheme of balance? I think not. I'll admit it, Samurai was broken. It became an easy way for people to get their rocks off. Big number in the chat log, "oh yeah, I'm the shit!" SAM has been Epeen on crutches.
Good SAMs don't Die. Good RDMs don't either.
For those wh
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