Haste Is NOT Exponential...
Haste is NOT exponential...
It'll end up as 2%, yes. The relative additional damage from it wont be the same as the previous 1% though.
You were poorly informed then, Lowblow. Double attack stacks just the same as haste does. The only time it's different is if double attack is on the weapon.
Example:
Joyeuse occasionally attacks twice about 45% of the time. This is not double attack, but when it procs double attack can't. This effect will also not proc on a weaponskill. Double attack in itself always stacks. It basically gives you two chances to double attack; 1 from the weapon, and 1 from the trait known as double attack. They cannot both proc in the same attack phase though, unless it's a sea weapon like Justice Sword.
For example, a WAR with 15% base double attack from merits and the trait will have a 39% chance to double attack under the effect of fighter's roll should the cor roll an 11. They aren't calculated separately. Instead all sources of double attack are added together and calculated as a net total.
Haste and slow are done in the same fashion. A comparative example of how haste works in relation to double attack and "occasionally attacks twice" weapons would be haste combined with dual wield. Those two do not stack. Dual wield will reduce your max delay separately from haste, and then haste will be calculated from the new delay that was created by dual wield.
Example:
Joyeuse occasionally attacks twice about 45% of the time. This is not double attack, but when it procs double attack can't. This effect will also not proc on a weaponskill. Double attack in itself always stacks. It basically gives you two chances to double attack; 1 from the weapon, and 1 from the trait known as double attack. They cannot both proc in the same attack phase though, unless it's a sea weapon like Justice Sword.
For example, a WAR with 15% base double attack from merits and the trait will have a 39% chance to double attack under the effect of fighter's roll should the cor roll an 11. They aren't calculated separately. Instead all sources of double attack are added together and calculated as a net total.
Haste and slow are done in the same fashion. A comparative example of how haste works in relation to double attack and "occasionally attacks twice" weapons would be haste combined with dual wield. Those two do not stack. Dual wield will reduce your max delay separately from haste, and then haste will be calculated from the new delay that was created by dual wield.
Odin.Lowblow said:
Ive heard compeltely different faiye.
Its easy to verify, just parse it. Take a large enough sample, say a few thousand mobs and parse your attacks with a brutal earring, and then do the same sample without your brutal earring.
So the only reasons war dont stack DA is because its a chance, which isnt worth risking when they can have a 100% increase from haste?
Well, that, and the fact Hastes influence on delay will lead to higher damage by the end of the day.
Ah cuz i was gonna say.. a war with trait/merit/ and ***ton of DA gear could get like a 50% da rate.. wouldnt that just be... broken?
Only reason i never tried it was because i was under the influence that it had a negative return from stacking to much
Only reason i never tried it was because i was under the influence that it had a negative return from stacking to much
yea, that's right. War's will typically only stack double attack on weaponskills aside from brutal earring because haste is more beneficial. Not strictly because the higher DoT produced and faster tp gain but also because it reduces the cooldown of utsusemi in a direct, linear fashion just like it does to delay. Shadows and faster tp gain are the core focuses of tp.
Ragnarok.Faiye said:
1) Its semantics
If you have the choice between putting Double Attack and Haste in the same slot you are better off with Haste.
Haste, when you have enough of it gives a bigger % boost to damage over time than Double Attack. Chances are if you are in a party situation you are going to be getting a Haste spell or March which further enhances the equipment Haste you are wearing.
Also, I'm not a WAR so correct me if I'm wrong but...there isn't enough Double Attack gear available for WAR to give it a comparable boost to DoT as there is Haste gear available.
Haste, when you have enough of it gives a bigger % boost to damage over time than Double Attack. Chances are if you are in a party situation you are going to be getting a Haste spell or March which further enhances the equipment Haste you are wearing.
Also, I'm not a WAR so correct me if I'm wrong but...there isn't enough Double Attack gear available for WAR to give it a comparable boost to DoT as there is Haste gear available.
Quote:
Haste, when you have enough of it gives a bigger % boost to damage over time than Double Attack.
For TP'ing, provided you're not slowed or anything HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE like that, even at 0% haste, 1% haste is better than 1% DA.
50% double attack wouldn't be too broken. Here's an example:
50% double attack:
You attack 10 times, and you proc 5 double attacks.
You've hit 15 times in roughly the same amount of time it took 25% haste to hit 15 hits.
Example based on time:
swinging 10 times with 500 delay takes 83.3 seconds.
You double attack 5x, for a total of 15 swings in 83.3 secs.
Swinging 15 times with 375 base delay (25% haste of 500 delay) takes 93.75 seconds.
(Math: 375/60 = 6.25 secs per swing. 6.25 x 15 swings = 93.75 seconds.)
The higher haste you have and the higher double attack you get will eventually make haste superior. If you're able to hit 50% double attack, it IS faster tp gain than 25% haste gear cap though.
I think only dancer can hit 50% double attack though. They cap it out with 55% with saber dance and brutal earring though. They can also hit 55% double attack WHILE still wearing 25% haste gear. Can also use haste samba for +10 haste on top of that too.
50% double attack:
You attack 10 times, and you proc 5 double attacks.
You've hit 15 times in roughly the same amount of time it took 25% haste to hit 15 hits.
Example based on time:
swinging 10 times with 500 delay takes 83.3 seconds.
You double attack 5x, for a total of 15 swings in 83.3 secs.
Swinging 15 times with 375 base delay (25% haste of 500 delay) takes 93.75 seconds.
(Math: 375/60 = 6.25 secs per swing. 6.25 x 15 swings = 93.75 seconds.)
The higher haste you have and the higher double attack you get will eventually make haste superior. If you're able to hit 50% double attack, it IS faster tp gain than 25% haste gear cap though.
I think only dancer can hit 50% double attack though. They cap it out with 55% with saber dance and brutal earring though. They can also hit 55% double attack WHILE still wearing 25% haste gear. Can also use haste samba for +10 haste on top of that too.
This would be correct.
AF Boots, Pole Grip, Askar Korazin, Relic Legs, Brutal Earring and Fourth Division Mantle are the only ones iirc. +12~13% only.
AF Boots, Pole Grip, Askar Korazin, Relic Legs, Brutal Earring and Fourth Division Mantle are the only ones iirc. +12~13% only.
Hate it when quotes aren't working :(
Anyway Lowblow, I think one interesting way to look at your question is to take the maximum DA you can get, say 50% and then compare it to the maximum Haste % WAR can get. Again I'm not a WAR so I don't know if they can reach the Haste cap on equipment or not. Anybody know the answer to that one?
EDIT: looks like Duvessa did it already.
Anyway Lowblow, I think one interesting way to look at your question is to take the maximum DA you can get, say 50% and then compare it to the maximum Haste % WAR can get. Again I'm not a WAR so I don't know if they can reach the Haste cap on equipment or not. Anybody know the answer to that one?
EDIT: looks like Duvessa did it already.
25% is the highest a WAR can get.
Uhh.. 24% without Rune Chopper.
Quote:
25% haste makes you swing 50% faster, here's the math:
500 delay x 0.75 = 375. To attack twice as fast, your delay must reach 250. 125 is half of 250, thus is a 50% increase in attack speed.
500 delay x 0.75 = 375. To attack twice as fast, your delay must reach 250. 125 is half of 250, thus is a 50% increase in attack speed.
Wrong, your math sucks.
25% haste is not a 50% increase in attack speed.
"25% haste makes you swing 50% faster, here's the math:
500 delay x 0.75 = 375. To attack twice as fast, your delay must reach 250. 125 is half of 250, thus is a 50% increase in attack speed."
That made no sense to me.
You took a "Need to reach 250" and then split it in half and said you have a 50% increase in atk speed. how the hell did that happen.
500 delay x 0.75 = 375. To attack twice as fast, your delay must reach 250. 125 is half of 250, thus is a 50% increase in attack speed."
That made no sense to me.
You took a "Need to reach 250" and then split it in half and said you have a 50% increase in atk speed. how the hell did that happen.
Yes:
Turban 5
Byakko 5
Belt 6
Hands 4
Feet 4
Ring 1
Turban 5
Byakko 5
Belt 6
Hands 4
Feet 4
Ring 1
25% with Blitz, V belt, Byakkos, Turban, Dusk+1 gloves and Unicorn+1 feet.
Warrior can't wear Tiercel Necklace.
In case you were wondering, 25% haste is a 33.333333~~~% increase in attack speed, not 50%
War can't use Tiercel.
Lowblow... look at it this way.
Your base delay is 500. You have 50% haste. Your new delay is 250. If you have 250 delay, you're swinging 'aproximately' 200% faster (twice as fast).
Your base delay is 500. You have 50% haste. Your new delay is 250. If you have 250 delay, you're swinging 'aproximately' 200% faster (twice as fast).
I see what your saying.
250 is twice as fast. so 100% 375 is 50%. but seems to simple to me
250 is twice as fast. so 100% 375 is 50%. but seems to simple to me
I'm not looking at delay, you said ATTACK SPEED, aka number of attacks.
You have 1000 delay and 25% haste
750 delay after the haste
Let's say we're attacking for 10,000 delay (166.666666666666~ seconds since you like that so much)
You get 10 attacks w/ 1000 delay
10,000/750 = 13.33333333~ attacks w/ 750 delay
13.3333333/10 = 33.33333333~% more attacks.
Your math is wrong, it's not 50% increase
You have 1000 delay and 25% haste
750 delay after the haste
Let's say we're attacking for 10,000 delay (166.666666666666~ seconds since you like that so much)
You get 10 attacks w/ 1000 delay
10,000/750 = 13.33333333~ attacks w/ 750 delay
13.3333333/10 = 33.33333333~% more attacks.
Your math is wrong, it's not 50% increase
Well, its not exact because delay is exponential. The lower your delay the greater effect every reduction it gets has. It can only be reduced by haste effects and dual wield.
50% increase in attack speed would be 15 attacks in the same amount of time the other does 10 attacks
0% haste of 500 delay = 500 delay
500/60 = 8.3 secs per attack.
in 60 seconds you swing 7.23 times.
================================
25% haste of 500 delay = 375 delay
375/60 = 6.25 secs per attack.
in 60 seconds you swing 9.6 times.
================================
50% haste of 500 delay = 250 delay
250/60 = 4.16666666666(etc) secs per attack
in 60 seconds you swing 14.4 times
================================
The Checks:
Here's an example of how this is still a somewhat linear return, though slightly exponential, and gets even more so the closer to 100 you get:
7.23/14.4 shows you that 50% haste still retains the value of delay reduction achieved. it's roughly 0.5, which is the modifier put onto delay when calculating 50% haste. In other words, 50% haste doubles your attack speed.
Now for 25%:
7.23/9.6 hits shows you the 25% haste's effect. It comes out at roughly 0.75.
So now, tiger. You're wrong. 50% haste is twice as many attacks.
0% haste of 500 delay nets 7.23 attacks per 60 secs while 50% haste nets 14.4
500/60 = 8.3 secs per attack.
in 60 seconds you swing 7.23 times.
================================
25% haste of 500 delay = 375 delay
375/60 = 6.25 secs per attack.
in 60 seconds you swing 9.6 times.
================================
50% haste of 500 delay = 250 delay
250/60 = 4.16666666666(etc) secs per attack
in 60 seconds you swing 14.4 times
================================
The Checks:
Here's an example of how this is still a somewhat linear return, though slightly exponential, and gets even more so the closer to 100 you get:
7.23/14.4 shows you that 50% haste still retains the value of delay reduction achieved. it's roughly 0.5, which is the modifier put onto delay when calculating 50% haste. In other words, 50% haste doubles your attack speed.
Now for 25%:
7.23/9.6 hits shows you the 25% haste's effect. It comes out at roughly 0.75.
So now, tiger. You're wrong. 50% haste is twice as many attacks.
0% haste of 500 delay nets 7.23 attacks per 60 secs while 50% haste nets 14.4
Quote:
So now, tiger. You're wrong. 50% haste is twice as many attacks.
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