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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-12 08:55:37
so we're just straight up letting people create sock accounts and post fan-fic now? Oh man the day has finally come!
In a dark deep pit, two manly men duke it out. Draylo the stalwart fan and Homsar the great detractor. Each lands devastating deceive blow after blow but neither will give any ground. After days of battle a small penguin enters the fray. The penguin utters 3 simple words "Get Help Nerds", the two combatants turn to look at the penguin in sheer shock as the simple phrase uttered so callously cause them to suddenly go find a therapist to help them work through their issues in a more healthy and productive manner. The End
Is that a better fan-fic for you GHN?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-12 09:01:25
I think maybe the problem with retail XI is the classic MMO problem, summarized by most players over the last 30 years: "The game doesn't start until endgame".
All the things people are looking for (partying up, challenge, making friends, helping each other out, chatting, etc.) are there, but they only really happen after you hit 99. The leveling experience has basically been turned into a laughably easy stepping stone you do to get yourself ready for the real game.
The problem with this is that the leveling experience is the first thing people see when they join the game, and it being an unchallenging solo-fest probably scares a lot of people away.
I don't see a great solution for this though, as has been pointed out a million times before, there aren't ENOUGH new players to facilitate a party-based leveling system. Even if there were, you'd need a constant supply of new players constantly raising new jobs to help the newest players. It's just not realistic in this day & age with this kind of interest in FFXI.
I'm sure this exists on private servers but that's a whole different ball of wax. As much as Nynja makes jokes about the poors, I think it's hard to deny that a server and game being free VASTLY improves people's willingness to give it a try, which helps to create a constant flow of new players to fill those dunes parties.
I think the decision to essentially eliminate the leveling process was a good one, and I think people should seek community in the actual challenging and interesting content (the stuff I listed above) instead of trying to find a community to kill bat trios with.
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Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-12 09:07:02
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »As much as Nynja makes jokes about the poors Who says they're jokes?
Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 09:13:38
Leveling was easy even back in the 75 era. It was just a grind. It's not like any of the mobs were that difficult back then, you just had to have decent gear.
The only 'difficulty' of 75-era leveling was finding the time to wait around for a party to form only for it to end within an hour or two. Grind isn't difficulty.
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By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-12 09:27:39
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Leveling was easy even back in the 75 era. It was just a grind. It's not like any of the mobs were that difficult back then, you just had to have decent gear.
The only 'difficulty' of 75-era leveling was finding the time to wait around for a party to form only for it to end within an hour or two. Grind isn't difficulty. I see you ignored the point I made about wanting challenge from content such as 6-4, CoP was always regarded as a challenge, and that's what was fun.
Why do you people always redirect to levelling as if that's the only *** thing classic ffxi had to do?
Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 09:29:33
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Leveling was easy even back in the 75 era. It was just a grind. It's not like any of the mobs were that difficult back then, you just had to have decent gear.
The only 'difficulty' of 75-era leveling was finding the time to wait around for a party to form only for it to end within an hour or two. Grind isn't difficulty. I see you ignored the point I made about wanting challenge from content such as 6-4, CoP was always regarded as a challenge, and that's what was fun.
Why do you people always redirect to levelling as if that's the only *** thing classic ffxi had to do?
CoP is not a challenge on these era servers because we know the mechanics of the fights and can easily prep for them. They WERE a challenge because a lot of people didn't prep for them, didn't have current gear, didn't have experience of the fights and didn't have experience of MMO's in general. Voice chat wasn't so much of a thing back then so we had to communicate through in-game chat which made it harder to react and carry a group through. Now everyone has discord. Again why are you being so hostile when we are just having a discussion?
Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-12 09:39:25
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Leveling was easy even back in the 75 era. It was just a grind. It's not like any of the mobs were that difficult back then, you just had to have decent gear.
The only 'difficulty' of 75-era leveling was finding the time to wait around for a party to form only for it to end within an hour or two. Grind isn't difficulty. I see you ignored the point I made about wanting challenge from content such as 6-4, CoP was always regarded as a challenge, and that's what was fun.
Why do you people always redirect to levelling as if that's the only *** thing classic ffxi had to do? Guy said CoP was a challenge lol
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By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-12 09:40:03
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »CoP is not a challenge on these era servers because we know the mechanics of the fights and can easily prep for them. There WERE a challenge because a lot of people didn't prep for them, didn't have current gear, didn't have experience of the fights and didn't have experience of MMO's in general. Voice chat wasn't so much of a thing back then so we had to communicate through in-game chat which made it harder to react and carry a group through. Now everyone has discord. Again why are you being so hostile when we are just having a discussion?
Knowledge and execution are different things. People can know how to do something and not be able to execute it in practice. There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is in current retail, which again, I explained but you ignored.
I'm hostile because I and others wrote somewhat lengthy posts explaining our points, and you just circled back to "nah levelling isn't a challenge you're wrong".
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 09:46:29
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »CoP is not a challenge on these era servers because we know the mechanics of the fights and can easily prep for them. There WERE a challenge because a lot of people didn't prep for them, didn't have current gear, didn't have experience of the fights and didn't have experience of MMO's in general. Voice chat wasn't so much of a thing back then so we had to communicate through in-game chat which made it harder to react and carry a group through. Now everyone has discord. Again why are you being so hostile when we are just having a discussion?
Knowledge and execution are different things. People can know how to do something and not be able to execute it in practice.
I'm hostile because I and others wrote somewhat lengthy posts explaining our points, and you just circled back to "nah levelling isn't a challenge you're wrong".
Playing with bad players will make it more challenging sure, but anyone that can hit a couple of macros and move away from bad stuff isn't really a high bar if it's with players who you know and you can help coach in voice chat.
When I first started the game I died to many, many rabbits and gobs in Ronfaure because I didn't understand the mechanics of the game. Now? I breeze through the starting areas in private servers because I know what to expect.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-12 09:49:01
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is in current retail
Luckily I wasn't drinking hot coffee when I read this line. You could've seriously hurt someone, you should consider others when you write such hilarious jokes on the internet.
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Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-12 09:49:32
CoP did have some tough fights and dungeon crawls, and i remember having to get level appropriate gear for each cap which was also a pain. Cop definitely had the old dungeon crawl vibe since you had to run your way through a bunch of true-aggro mobs in most zones.
But I did it once at the proper cap, and one time was enough.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-12 09:54:11
"Walk behind the backs of the Taurus" or "Wait until the Ghrah change forms" isn't exactly what I would call the same level of difficulty as V25 Ongo, but I guess I'm misremembering how difficult it was to kill Tenzen. I'm sure I had to fight some of the CoP battlefields more than once, but I was never stuck on one for more than like...5 tries? Probably no more than 3. And this is back when I was a teen/early 20s, with no Discord, no YouTube video tutorials, nothing.
There are plenty of arguments to be made about the pros and cons of 75 vs ilvl, but difficulty of content is not the road you want to go down.
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-12 09:58:57
Theres a 100% chance this dude cleared CoP with the Astral Flow crutch.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-12 10:01:13
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »"Walk behind the backs of the Taurus" or "Wait until the Ghrah change forms" isn't exactly what I would call the same level of difficulty as V25 Ongo, but I guess I'm misremembering how difficult it was to kill Tenzen. I'm sure I had to fight some of the CoP battlefields more than once, but I was never stuck on one for more than like...5 tries? Probably no more than 3. And this is back when I was a teen/early 20s, with no Discord, no YouTube video tutorials, nothing.
There are plenty of arguments to be made about the pros and cons of 75 vs ilvl, but difficulty of content is not the road you want to go down. Additionally there is incentive to repeat V25 fights for points to put toward upgrading the gear augs, but like.... why would I ever do 6-4 on repeat? you only NEED to do it once, and any time after that is you just helping someone else. At least if I help someone with a V25 I can get something worth my time too, not that that is the only reason to help people but is is nice.
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By Asura.Iamaman 2023-12-12 10:14:43
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is in current retail, which again, I explained but you ignored.
That's just not the case by any measure.
This is ultimately why I quit engaging in these discussions, there are a lot of people who haven't participated in retail for years, couldn't adapt to it and barely saw what was there, or barely scratched what's there and have gathered opinions on what it is and isn't. I do agree that the content in retail requires a lot of efficiency, gearing, and progression to participate in before you can see it (something Savel kindof pointed out also), but it is there.
Saevel's reply on 75-cap leveling and the clarification on wanting that experience again, I can relate and understand even if it's not my thing. If you wanted to experience that again (or for the first time), then retail isn't going to be a true experience even if you consider many of those fights have higher tier forms in HTBFs, UNMs, and GF mobs. The progression then felt more meaningful and drawn out, with less intensity to reach the more difficult content and less optimization required. You developed job knowledge as you earned skills/spells/etc instead of at the end of what was available. I get that a lot of people 'missed out' on that era and want to experience it again or do what they didn't before.
but saying things like "retail doesn't require groups", "retail has no community" (yes I realize you didn't say this, but I read it somewhat regularly from others), and "retail doesn't have content as difficult as 75 cap" is just not the case and it shows what I've observed about most people beating the drum on Horizon: they couldn't adapt to current retail content and wanted what was familiar and simpler. I know some good players who made great progress in current content who play Horizon, so that's not across the board, but it seems like the majority of players I know who left retail and comment about Horizon constantly. The gear, job, and skill floor for participation in the game right now is a lot higher than it used to be for doing engaging/non-trivial content, but it doesn't mean it isn't there. The same applies to groups and community, both those things absolutely exist and are required to be successful in retail. You just don't see it as soon because more work is required to get there.
Retail has its problems, but let's at least be honest about what they are and a lack of difficult content isn't one of them.
By Nariont 2023-12-12 10:17:34
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »"Walk behind the backs of the Taurus" or "Wait until the Ghrah change forms" isn't exactly what I would call the same level of difficulty as V25 Ongo, but I guess I'm misremembering how difficult it was to kill Tenzen. I'm sure I had to fight some of the CoP battlefields more than once, but I was never stuck on one for more than like...5 tries? Probably no more than 3. And this is back when I was a teen/early 20s, with no Discord, no YouTube video tutorials, nothing.
Hey there was also dodging pots cause everyone who gets sent on the tower climb has no/cannot cast or land a cc spell to save their lives.
CoP had a fair few difficult fights for the time, but thats mostly due to level cap/crap gear/lack of game knowledge/1 party caps then the fights themselves, if you had the "right" jobs, easy, otherwise you gotta improvise or just get the right job leveled up, then they started easing that by adding debuff items/think snoll got nerfed a bit, been ages.
Compared to todays content its brain dead but noone touches that that would say those fights were difficult, especially if those items are there and if BLU gets added you will faceroll that entire thing(or they nerf headbutt on NMs)
Omen midbosses are harder than just about anything CoP offered
Asura.Vyre
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By Asura.Vyre 2023-12-12 10:19:06
The elephant in the room that no one's gotten around to yet with the old standard of FFXI leveling is that there were pariah jobs.
In the old FFXI leveling system, people making parties generally were go-getters. Some would just try to make a basic party, and were satisfied with jobs that may not work too well for that level range or work to well in EXP at all. Then be satisfied with under 6k per hour for a few hours while socializing. And this, this was the enjoyable tedium that I feel most people are talking about. I miss that sometimes too, especially as someone who made parties for my SMN friend so he could get his Maat's Cap asap.
But you know, then there was the majority of party makers. They all had at least one job that they required for their parties. For most it was the preferred tank that was Ninja, post 37. Then for some more, they always wanted to have a BRD. Later on a COR or a BRD or both. They would eschew people leveling certain jobs, namely: DRG, PUP, BST, PLD, THF, BLU, BLM, SMN.
These jobs could and did get parties, but certain level ranges, some as vast as a 20~30 level span, saw them doing things like Campaign battle more or weird Beastmen pet solos or carby kiting bombs etc.
In old XI, job balance was somewhat whacko, and while it didn't matter as much as people made it out to, it did still impact how fast you could EXP.
While I'm sure "era" servers all have a different flavor of this, the taste remains, and depending on whatever changes they make alters it some, all that does is create a new batch of pariah jobs that no one wants to party with.
Further still, the endgame of old FFXI had specific jobs that did things best, and if you had leveled one of the HOT jobs, like BRD, there was a good chance you would always be demanded to be that HOT job over jobs you enjoyed more.
In current retail, you may not be able to get the slow, people filled leveling experience that you want, but please don't act like era FFXI was necessarily socially welcoming to literally every player/job.
At least in retail, you can level whatever you want and figure out how it works with your trusts. It may feel lonely and weird and different, but for anyone without a good friend group or good socialization skills or the desire to level at the speed of ground mail, it's much better.
Bear in mind that, it's literally possible to go from 1 to 99 in roughly 16 hours if you follow the speedruns that do that. Obviously, that wouldn't be a great way to enjoy the game, but getting to where the people are at, to get your shot at playing with people, is really not that far away from level 1 in retail.
It's not ideal, and I do miss old EXP parties sometimes. But that's just how nostalgic memories go. I also miss my mom, Transformers G1 being on TV, VCRs, Blockbuster Fridays, and other things. But some things we just have to be content with the nostalgia of the memory. It serves us less to cling to that which we cannot have anymore.
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 10:26:41
That's the thing about nostalgia for me, the actual thought and memories of something when put into reality only disappoints. And that's why I don't stay on these era servers for long because it just highlights the glaring faults with playing that way in 2023 when I have a family and a job which I didn't have back in 2006.
A lot of the challenge boils down to grinding and time in general. Time to make a group, time to fail because of bad players, time to learn fights, time to level, time to wait for time-gated content, time to travel across the vast zones.
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By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-12 10:27:25
Not quoting because multiple people replied to the same point I made here:
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is in current retail, which again, I explained but you ignored.
I am talking very specifically about old, 1-75 content. It is factually true that this content is easier now in retail due to retuning of abilities, weaponskills and other things, that has trivialised that content. I explained this from the perspectve of someone who wanted to redo that old content as it was intended at the time it was made. It is not possible anymore on retail. To deny this is idiocy.
I am not saying that classic FFXI is harder than retail, that is also idiocy. Sheol Gaol is probably the hardest content FFXI has ever had and I love it. Please don't twist my words just to make yourselves seem right.
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Bismarck.Stephenjd
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 10:29:45
People weren't talking about 1-75 on retail, they were saying about 75-era. I've done the whole 1-75 thing on era-servers. It isn't hard, it just takes more time to do things. it was an artificial challenge. I already know that content inside out and know how jobs and the game works so it is no longer a challenge in the same way it was back in 2006.
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-12-12 10:32:05
I literally cleared CoP with a static of PLD DRGorNIN THF RNG RDM BLM. It wasnt hard.
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By Asura.Iamaman 2023-12-12 10:34:23
I am talking very specifically about old, 1-75 content. ... Please don't twist my words just to make yourselves seem right.
That's fair. This wasn't clear to me in the post I quoted, so my apologies. I haven't been reading the longer or more drawn out discussions, so I must have missed that.
I read this constantly, though, which is why I replied the way I did. It's a common belief on /r/ffxi and a few other places.
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-12 10:43:53
But you know, then there was the majority of party makers. They all had at least one job that they required for their parties. For most it was the preferred tank that was Ninja, post 37. Then for some more, they always wanted to have a BRD. Later on a COR or a BRD or both. They would eschew people leveling certain jobs, namely: DRG, PUP, BST, PLD, THF, BLU, BLM, SMN. I leveled pup mostly solo doing the tried and true method of Deploy -> Deactivate -> Activate. It was fun but yeah did not get many invites unless it was from LS or people I knew. so many years of being an lolPUP :/ still had it better then lolDRG though.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2023-12-12 10:44:53
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is in current retail
I mean you have to admit there are multiple interpretations of this sentence, don't blame us for not understanding which one you meant.
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is (a challenge) in current retail.
There's also certainly more of a challenge in that content than there is FOR THOSE FIGHTS in current retail.
It's not like people are changing your statements to twist them into something different, you wrote it, not us.
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By Bismarck.Stephenjd 2023-12-12 10:47:37
Yeah there is more challenge doing 6-4 CoP on Horizon than on retail right now (for obvious reasons). But that's not to say that 6-4 CoP is difficult on Horizon, it's not. And it's easier than the perceived difficulty of that fight back in 2006 where it wasn't actually that difficult either.
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By Asura.Sensarity 2023-12-12 11:10:30
Bismarck.Stephenjd said: »Yeah there is more challenge doing 6-4 CoP on Horizon than on retail right now (for obvious reasons). But that's not to say that 6-4 CoP is difficult on Horizon, it's not. And it's easier than the perceived difficulty of that fight back in 2006 where it wasn't actually that difficult either. Agree with both of these points. I'd just rather have some resistance than none at all. I'd also prefer to be able to do it with actual people than with trusts.
I'm not saying they're hard, I'm saying they provide more of an accurate/intended challenge than retail does.
I had my partner join me in FFXI because she wanted to do the story, and she hated how we just steamrolled through all the fights in the story, which she was really invested in because FFXI's story is really good. I wish she could have had a similar experience to what I did when I did them, but she didn't get that and it definitely hurt her impression of the only part of the game she cared about doing.
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By Asura.Gweivyth 2023-12-12 13:11:13
Yall remember when Allakhazam used to have that emoji that was just a smiley face beating a dead horse?
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I live again!!!
I used to play FF11, so did my SO. But that was long ago~
We’ve been playing FF14 for several years now with another couple, and a handful of family members and mutual friends. Every one of them has a prior history with the final fantasy franchise as a whole, though from different generations. In our banter at one time or another everyone has expressed a curiosity for FF11 which they had heard was both a masterpiece in its own right, as well as a rather daunting and at times a crushing experience. There is also a perception of boring gameplay (somehow the classic ‘I hit you, you hit me, then I hit you again’ RPG gameplay loop just isn’t doing it for em. Spoiled). Sadly, I corroborated this for them and helped to solidify that opinion. I’m sure many similar conversations have been had from former players of FF11 to curious people of a younger gaming generation about FF11 in its early iterations. I suspect this mentality and perspective is a factor in people seeking out private servers. It certainly was in the case of my group.
After Yoshi P announced the upcoming raid with ties to FF11, each of the people in our group became instantly interested in playing the game. Our messiah Yoshi Pesus had spoken. Everyone asked me, with clear apprehension "how should we go about it?? What do we have to do to experience the story and clear the 'main content'"? Initially I facepalmed and rolled my eyes, but I also figured I too would like to see the close of the FF11 story I never completed. As the pied piper considering getting ready to lead his flock into the fucking dunes, I started to dread the learning curve everyone was going to hit more or less immediately upon login.
To counter that, I figured a private server would likely be the way to go. Presumably, we could just “godmode” or something and stomp our way through all the bullshit, speed/position hack and see the story as painlessly as possible. Well not quite. It turns out I knew nothing about private servers, and it turns out “godmode” is the trust system and other QOL and travel adjustments they made to retail over the years. But let me back up for a second. In researching options for private servers I found out a lot of concerning information about private servers, and the general lack of options (WIP pet projects). All of it covered in the other threads, ranging from leadership concerns, to absolutely stupid changes to the game itself (e.g. THF changes), and a butchered soundtrack. The final nail in the coffin really being that if you want to see the full story it’s going to have to be on retail. But even without story as a consideration, after researching enough about Horizon and other private servers it’s become a no brainer for the group. Fuck it, just play retail. Turns out that was a great decision.
The learning curve for everyone is still steep, but there are guides. Everyone has been enjoying it so far, they love the story, they enjoy the simplified “zen” of exp grinding (which I bitter-sweetly remind them is “not as painful as it used to be”). They’re around lvl 70 now, starting on CoP, finished Nation rank ups, and the Zilart missions. They suck, every new moment is a challenge for them. It’s been a blast.
Now, none of this would have happened within my group without Yoshi P giving FF11 a major publicity bump by attaching it to FF14. I suspect that’s a significant factor going on for Horizons success. Just lucky with great timing. FF11 got the Yoshi P bump, but FF11 has a sort of infamy to it that gamers are aware of, and subsequently might be more likely to consider a private server first. Especially if they have had any influence on their perspective either from past play of 11 like myself, or opinions and anecdotes of past players. Horizon is definitely riding on that wave.
It’s just a perfect storm of opportunity and timing for Horizons leadership. I don’t think they’re that smart (look at their administrative in-house drama), they might be finding ways to capitalize on it now sure, but I think it’s mostly just luck and timing.
Now having said all that… I definitely now think the hostility to Horizon is warranted. My group alone resulted in 6 people buying the game and starting a sub, and the renewal of my and my SO’s sub. While 8 people is not that many people, I think its fair to say that if I didn’t look closely into private servers vs retail, I and my crew would likely have found ourselves on Horizon, and there would be that much less money going to FF11. I wonder how many other people responding to the Yoshi P bump are being funneled to horizon instead of retail due to aforementioned reasons, and what a waste that is since as far as I can tell, Yoshi P doing this crossover raid is an attempt at the initial steps for extending a lifeline to FF11.
If players do their homework and still decide to play on a… quasi-elementary-school-birdhouse-project-failure of a private server like Horizon, aight cool homie, whatever makes you happy, the world could use more happy people. Go play it champ. Throw some Ridill’s on some shit. Go get that E-body. And a pair of gaiters.
Horizon keeps getting attributed as having a sense of community, but if people come over to FF11 with their own community already from FF14, as is the case in my group. Well, that becomes a moot point. So does FF11's existing stale community. What you'll have is an opportunity for people to just start importing their own communities into your greater one. Your feelings on FF14 tourists bringing their culture to this antique game may vary, but that's another topic.
Yoshi P, and Horizon have created a renaissance opportunity for FF11 I think. The conflict you all are having is actually probably good for the game. And that will be my last point for now that I wish to make, and also a thank you of sorts to the people here who care enough about the game to make noise.
I don’t wanna name names or anything, Draylo. Because I’m definitely not here to point fingers, Homsar. But seeing everyone aggressively hash it out here was indeed a significant factor in my groups decision of where to play. It gave me things to consider and trails of information to investigate elsewhere so I could make the right decision for my groups needs/interests.
So like… thanks you guys. Please don’t stop fighting the good/stupid fight. I need you. We need you. And you didn’t even know it. Promote whatever you want, and promote with all your sincerity. Sane or not.
Never stop duking it out.
Yall are like the ROV conclusion (spoilers) The winds of conflict must ever blow over vanadiel lest it be consumed by the cloud of darkness.
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