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FFXI, Horizon, Conflict, Renaissance, and You.
By ilugmat 2023-12-27 07:00:34
Why would there be less cheating? you mean less botting? there is plenty of fish botting on horizon. You mean RMT? you know there are lots of gill sellers and buyers on Horizon. You mean addon use? there is plenty of that. You mean taking advantage of bugs? here is a lot of that and it's way worse than retail because the people running it don't understand what they are doing.
That's another thing, the people running it play it so they can abuse things or even ban people if you annoy them in any way at all while they are playing.
They also allow people to donate money, and when people can donate hundreds to thousands of dollar that person becomes a special boy in the eyes of the people running it.
On retail everyone is even no matter how much of a scrub you are compared to the best geared, there are no special boys. On a private server there are special boys all around you, and god help you if you annoy them in any way. If you run an endgame LS on horizon and you aren't giving the guy in charge money, you're in for a bad time cause the other guys will be.
Quote: -More real people playing, less multiboxing
Prove there are more "real" people playing on Horizon vs Asura though, you can't so why say it? You're just assuming it is the case because of sea all and making assumptions, you don't even know if those numbers the database spits out are accurate. Since the guy running it has an incentive (financial and otherwise) to lie about it, not like it's hard to +500 that number being spat out from the database.
Quote: -Slower gameplay that doesn't require you to tryhard
You're speaking specifically about endgame and so there is barely any endgame on horizon anyway. The majority of endgame players on retail are not tryhard, they kill stuff with trusts. Maybe the top 10-25% are considered tryhard, but they are because they want to be.
Not even though is it? it's been butchered with stupid music, awful graphics and it is completely inaccurate to how the game was becasue they still capture data from modern day retail. It's a fanfic version of what it was in the worst way possible, it's also missing most of the content still and they will never really add the majority of it all back.
The biggest fail of a private server is it's full of the most boring ffxi people you can imagine, I made a joke to a friend of mine a while ago. Even the 3 women on horizon have beards, and it's true (metaphorically speaking). It's all "classic ale" drinkers of the XI world. The scope of people you will meet on a classic server is so narrow, because most normal people won't go near a private server. I've played on a lot of private servers for many games and it's always the same kind of people on them, retail attracts a far wider array of different kind of people and that is what make social interaction enjoyable.
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By K123 2023-12-27 07:04:24
I honestly would love to know how many people on Asura are actually players playing the game properly and main accounts. I really don't think it is more than about 300 characters active and engaged in content (not botting) at any time I'm on (not NA peak hours).
I reckon Horizon is about the same, but a lot of the people online are probably afk.
If you're playing an MMO to meet women, or judging which MMO to play based on chances of meeting women, then you're probably playing for the wrong reason though.
 Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2254
By Shiva.Thorny 2023-12-27 07:19:49
Why would there be less cheating? you mean less botting? there is plenty of fish botting on horizon. You mean RMT? you know there are lots of gill sellers and buyers on Horizon. You mean addon use? there is plenty of that. You mean taking advantage of bugs? here is a lot of that and it's way worse than retail because the people running it don't understand what they are doing.
The game is simpler, so there's no need to automate everything under the sun. The mods are able to ban with relatively low bar for proof, so bots do get purged occasionally. Retail bots get banned far less frequently.
Prove there are more "real" people playing on Horizon vs Asura though, you can't so why say it? You're just assuming it is the case because of sea all and making assumptions, you don't even know if those numbers the database spits out are accurate. Since the guy running it has an incentive (financial and otherwise) to lie about it, not like it's hard to +500 that number being spat out from the database. It doesn't matter how many people are on '/sea all', if you honestly think there is more unique player-to-player interaction happening on Asura then Horizon, I have a bridge to sell you.
You're speaking specifically about endgame and so there is barely any endgame on horizon anyway. The majority of endgame players on retail are not tryhard, they kill stuff with trusts. Maybe the top 10-25% are considered tryhard, but they are because they want to be. The entire game is slower paced. You have half as many abilities, significantly less fast cast, and less TP gain.
Not even though is it? it's been butchered with stupid music, awful graphics and it is completely inaccurate to how the game was becasue they still capture data from modern day retail. It's a fanfic version of what it was in the worst way possible, it's also missing most of the content still and they will never really add the majority of it all back. I don't even disagree with this, but it doesn't mean other people won't find the broad strokes nostalgic.
Honestly, I'm never going to play Horizon. I probably wouldn't even play a perfectly managed 75-era server. But, there are reasons people would prefer them, and being unable to accept a single positive just shows a deep inherent bias in you.
By K123 2023-12-27 07:21:01
What if you could make more money selling gil on Horizon?
Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2254
By Shiva.Thorny 2023-12-27 07:26:08
What if you could make more money selling gil on Horizon?
I wouldn't consider it playing, since that'd be done solely with bots and essentially no manual interaction. But, I have no intent of trying to RMT on private servers. It's kind of shitty to the people maintaining them, and despite all the areas they are lacking they do put more effort into combating bots/cheats than retail.
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By ilugmat 2023-12-27 07:55:18
There are already lots of Chinese RMT on there that undercut western sellers, also the people running it can create and sell gil out of thin air if they wanted. They can literally just give themselves max gil over and over again if they want, then sell it on the black market sites for money.
However, surely these upstanding gentlemen who run and are effectively god of the server would never sell gil for money. Cause who wants free money.
By K123 2023-12-27 08:28:33
It is brutally hard to make gil on Horizon. They should add universal basic income for new players.
 Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2023-12-27 10:27:22
You wouldn't need to bot on horizon, there's probably a myriad of exploits they don't know how to patch in client <-> server interaction and you can likely insta-spawn billions
(I would bet, anyway, it's not something I've looked into)
((Nothing more authentic in era than client/server exploits tbh))
Fenrir.Ixn
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 70
By Fenrir.Ixn 2023-12-27 10:51:48
Back in my day, we had our "loot bat" to make our thousands of gil off of.
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 Bismarck.Nickeny
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2010
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2023-12-27 12:02:27
Logged into Horizon to test this difficulty I heard about. Loaded the game on my PC and I started to Violently throw up. I composed myself and realized it was time for work, but I left my PC on. I walked out my door and was suddenly attacked by the IRS. I was able to roll dodge away to my car and drive to work. Soon I saw Horizon IX drones speeding towards me attempting to run me off the road. I ended up flipping my car and drove into a lake. I was able to open the doors and sure enough, piranhas attacked. I was able to get to shore but was then attacked by the locals (those brooklyn natives i tell yah.)
Man Horizon is rough. I didn't expect this spike in difficulty but man its worth it.
Ragnarok.Casey
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 160
By Ragnarok.Casey 2023-12-27 12:23:34
Back in my day, we had our "loot bat" to make our thousands of gil off of.
SE shifted the mobs ages ago and clearly they did it just to exploit on private servers to sell gil to fund another XIV expansion. It was an upstream bug that wasn't caught because of DSP's god awful design assuming mobs don't change IDs.
 Bahamut.Skald
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bahamut.Skald 2023-12-27 13:04:38
Let's see a single Horizon stan with R30 Nyame, or even Bumba V25 access. My name's Jim and I played Horizon only a little for the first few weeks on launch so maybe not exactly the kind of person you're seeking however the time I spent with those broad strokes of nostalgia was thoroughly enjoyed. Probably the minority but leveling and progression as content is something that tickles my fancy, the pace in "era" is relaxing, I don't need to go brrr 37 WS per minute to have fun or feel like my time isn't being wasted. It gave me that old timey warm feels of the "experience points party" which is missing from retail and if I had more time to play both retail and private I absolutely would be.
To say Horizon or "era" is hard or difficult is both true and not at the same time imo, the struggle isn't in execution or gameplay it's the time and dedication it takes to build a job, in that sense alone it's harder than retail without doubt. Whether that's a worthy or enjoyable hurdle to overcome for an individual is likely the defining factor of whether people consider private servers worth playing to begin with. Add to that the necessity of networking and finding likeminded players with similar ambitions/progression and then making gil. It's no cakewalk, just a different kind of hard.
There's no point not to play that way when it's easier to make gil than level a job. Sense of accomplishment for time invested? You know, the thing that one would imagine the majority of horizon players would hold in high regard.
These Horizon Threads said: Some people enjoy mowing their lawns while some people do crossword puzzles while some people hate watermelon. I don't get why retail players get their hackles up about horizon and why horizon players might think retail is the devil. To be fair retail is plagued with RMT, automation and bots where horizon comes with all the trappings of a private server with bugs, well-intentioned but y u do dis adjustments and questionable management but at the end of it all both have their value and cater to FFXI players. That there even is a choice between them in this 20 year old mmo which we all love is something everybody should be thankful for if you ask me.
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Bismarck.Nickeny
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2010
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2023-12-27 13:21:50
some people hate watermelon. 
Get in the robot Shinji
VIP
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-27 15:10:16
the time and dedication it takes to build a job If we can't agree on what it means to be difficult what is the point of communicating about it.
is it difficult because it takes time? well I could take a hour to kill something but if all I did was auto attack it and then go do the dishes for an hour, that really wasn't "difficult" was it?
is it difficult because it takes dedication? I think of this as is it difficult to take small steps toward a goal each day or session? not necessarily how many steps it would take that would just be rehashing the time topic. for example some kid learning to play guitar over summer break would require less dedication than a mother of 2 with a day job and a million other things going on in her life, but none of that has to do with the difficulty of activity itself but how much dedication the person has to offer the activity, so it seems that it can not be the reason the activity is difficult.
I think something is difficult when it requires having some knowledge and the ability to execute a strategy, the more complex that strategy the more difficult the activity.
Bismarck.Nickeny
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2010
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2023-12-27 15:39:38
Don't think there is a Horizon player alive that could out ffxi me. Horizon players are just... weak and poor.
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Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15371
By Asura.Vyre 2023-12-27 15:46:29
Maybe you just need to hire a bunch of Horizon players to kill tree. Just send wave after wave of men at it!
Bismarck.Nickeny
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2010
By Bismarck.Nickeny 2023-12-27 15:51:51
20% with 7 mins left with a WC6 and..... kaboom, we dead.
It's gonna be soon I swear...
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By fillerbunny9 2023-12-27 16:15:51
Maybe you just need to hire a bunch of Horizon players to kill tree. Just send wave after wave of men at it!
you know what, I like the cut of your jib. I fully endorse Operation Tiiimbeeer
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Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15371
By Asura.Vyre 2023-12-27 16:26:27
20% with 7 mins left with a WC6 and..... kaboom, we dead.
It's gonna be soon I swear...
Part of me checking FFXIah is to see the occasional mention of your epic saga with it. I'm invested.
Bahamut.Skald
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bahamut.Skald 2023-12-27 16:30:03
I think something is difficult when it requires having some knowledge and the ability to execute a strategy, the more complex that strategy the more difficult the activity. I would say that's accurate, certainly when pinpointed on any given activity on its own and absolutely relevant to then vs now battle mechanics. If we look at it from the angle of considering all the things required of a player in 75 era to hit cap, acquire gear, complete missions, make gil, et cetera, it all together might be more appropriately labeled as time consuming but I sure as heck wouldn't bat an eyelash if someone called it a difficult journey.
To say Horizon or "era" is hard or difficult is both true and not.. just a different kind of hard.
VIP
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 463
By Fenrir.Niflheim 2023-12-27 16:48:33
If we look at it from the angle of considering all the things required of a player in 75 era to hit cap, acquire gear, complete missions, make gil, et cetera, it all together might be more appropriately labeled as time consuming but I sure as heck wouldn't bat an eyelash if someone called it a difficult journey. Except that journey isn't any longer than to get to end game in retail, you still have to level up to 99 do your merits, job points and then collect gear from dozens of different events which each require progression on various story lines to even participate in.
So I guess you need to define comparable finish lines, like making a single relic weapon is not the finish line in retail, its more like the first lap around the track and you have a few hundred more to go. Is it "easier" to do a specific thing that you can do in 75 era on retail yes, but that specific thing also means very little on retail versus a lot on 75 era.
analogy time:
75 era is like cutting up an apple with a knife, then eating it
retail is like using a food processor on the apple, but then making an apple pie, then eating it.
By Seun 2023-12-27 17:35:21
analogy time:
75 era is like cutting up an apple with a knife, then eating it
retail is like using a food processor on the apple, but then making an apple pie, then eating it.
The 'real' 75 era i.e. pre level sync, manuals/tomes, nerfed exp, ect.
Planting an apple tree and watering it for years before you're able to eat.
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Bahamut.Skald
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 89
By Bahamut.Skald 2023-12-27 17:58:46
Except that journey isn't any longer than to get to end game in retail, you still have to level up to 99 do your merits, job points and then collect gear from dozens of different events which each require progression on various story lines to even participate in.
So I guess you need to define comparable finish lines, like making a single relic weapon is not the finish line in retail, its more like the first lap around the track and you have a few hundred more to go. Is it "easier" to do a specific thing that you can do in 75 era on retail yes, but that specific thing also means very little on retail versus a lot on 75 era.
analogy time:
75 era is like cutting up an apple with a knife, then eating it
retail is like using a food processor on the apple, but then making an apple pie, then eating it.
Starting fresh in retail is daunting as well, no doubt about it, but what's precluding the idea of apple pie or successive laps in 75 era?
I appreciate the engagement but you're not gonna hear from me that 75 was/is the hardmode XI, not sure if you interpreted it that way. The only thing I would aim to define is that both offer different challenges and an experience that I find enjoyable.
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By GetHelpNerd 2023-12-27 19:16:09
OSRS/RS are probably the easiest games ever created as far as an MMO goes. OSRS is the older version of RS.
OSRS is wildly more popular than RS.
both are wildly more popular than FFXI.
retail WoW is harder than anything in classic wow by a million billion miles.
classic WoW is still insanely popular and sees insane numbers.
both are wildly more popular than FFXI, and as of late, wildly more popular than FF14 as well.
i don't think difficulty makes a game good, no idea why you all are stuck on this. ody is horrible game design, be it hard or not, it's *** ***tier game design.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 576
By Asura.Meliorah 2023-12-27 19:31:01
I wouldn't say OSRS is the easiest game ever created, Chambers of Xeric, Tombs of Amascut, Theatre of Blood, Phosani Nightmare and Corrupted Gauntlet are *** hard, not to mention the Desert Treasure 2 awakened bosses.
Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15371
By Asura.Vyre 2023-12-27 19:46:24
Now when you say old school Runescape, do you mean the 3-D variant that came out around like 2005 or whenever... Or do you mean the 2-D variant where your character customization boiled down to skin tone, sex, shirt, pants, and hair color?
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 576
By Asura.Meliorah 2023-12-27 20:03:04
RS1 is referred to as classic, its no longer playable on Jagex hosted servers. RS2 is OSRS a 2004 varient and currently keeping Jagex from folding in half. No one plays RS3 but the people who have rares and holiday tradables that could finance a house if RMT'd.
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Asura.Vyre
Forum Moderator
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 15371
By Asura.Vyre 2023-12-27 20:07:24
RS1 is referred to as classic, its no longer playable on Jagex hosted servers.
*pours one out for the game that lead me to MMOs, my first online relationships, and my good ole Rune 2hander*
By shadowordpain 2023-12-28 14:14:17
I would say that 75-era made certain things feel 'bigger' even if it was just a title. It wasn't everyday you were gonna walk around and see someone with an AV or PW title back then for example. If you saw someone with a relic or even ebody/ridill, you could kind of tell they weren't just 'average' (even if they did play average in the end). Some people want to be the 'cool kid' in school, so they play on servers like that.
I live again!!!
I used to play FF11, so did my SO. But that was long ago~
We’ve been playing FF14 for several years now with another couple, and a handful of family members and mutual friends. Every one of them has a prior history with the final fantasy franchise as a whole, though from different generations. In our banter at one time or another everyone has expressed a curiosity for FF11 which they had heard was both a masterpiece in its own right, as well as a rather daunting and at times a crushing experience. There is also a perception of boring gameplay (somehow the classic ‘I hit you, you hit me, then I hit you again’ RPG gameplay loop just isn’t doing it for em. Spoiled). Sadly, I corroborated this for them and helped to solidify that opinion. I’m sure many similar conversations have been had from former players of FF11 to curious people of a younger gaming generation about FF11 in its early iterations. I suspect this mentality and perspective is a factor in people seeking out private servers. It certainly was in the case of my group.
After Yoshi P announced the upcoming raid with ties to FF11, each of the people in our group became instantly interested in playing the game. Our messiah Yoshi Pesus had spoken. Everyone asked me, with clear apprehension "how should we go about it?? What do we have to do to experience the story and clear the 'main content'"? Initially I facepalmed and rolled my eyes, but I also figured I too would like to see the close of the FF11 story I never completed. As the pied piper considering getting ready to lead his flock into the fucking dunes, I started to dread the learning curve everyone was going to hit more or less immediately upon login.
To counter that, I figured a private server would likely be the way to go. Presumably, we could just “godmode” or something and stomp our way through all the bullshit, speed/position hack and see the story as painlessly as possible. Well not quite. It turns out I knew nothing about private servers, and it turns out “godmode” is the trust system and other QOL and travel adjustments they made to retail over the years. But let me back up for a second. In researching options for private servers I found out a lot of concerning information about private servers, and the general lack of options (WIP pet projects). All of it covered in the other threads, ranging from leadership concerns, to absolutely stupid changes to the game itself (e.g. THF changes), and a butchered soundtrack. The final nail in the coffin really being that if you want to see the full story it’s going to have to be on retail. But even without story as a consideration, after researching enough about Horizon and other private servers it’s become a no brainer for the group. Fuck it, just play retail. Turns out that was a great decision.
The learning curve for everyone is still steep, but there are guides. Everyone has been enjoying it so far, they love the story, they enjoy the simplified “zen” of exp grinding (which I bitter-sweetly remind them is “not as painful as it used to be”). They’re around lvl 70 now, starting on CoP, finished Nation rank ups, and the Zilart missions. They suck, every new moment is a challenge for them. It’s been a blast.
Now, none of this would have happened within my group without Yoshi P giving FF11 a major publicity bump by attaching it to FF14. I suspect that’s a significant factor going on for Horizons success. Just lucky with great timing. FF11 got the Yoshi P bump, but FF11 has a sort of infamy to it that gamers are aware of, and subsequently might be more likely to consider a private server first. Especially if they have had any influence on their perspective either from past play of 11 like myself, or opinions and anecdotes of past players. Horizon is definitely riding on that wave.
It’s just a perfect storm of opportunity and timing for Horizons leadership. I don’t think they’re that smart (look at their administrative in-house drama), they might be finding ways to capitalize on it now sure, but I think it’s mostly just luck and timing.
Now having said all that… I definitely now think the hostility to Horizon is warranted. My group alone resulted in 6 people buying the game and starting a sub, and the renewal of my and my SO’s sub. While 8 people is not that many people, I think its fair to say that if I didn’t look closely into private servers vs retail, I and my crew would likely have found ourselves on Horizon, and there would be that much less money going to FF11. I wonder how many other people responding to the Yoshi P bump are being funneled to horizon instead of retail due to aforementioned reasons, and what a waste that is since as far as I can tell, Yoshi P doing this crossover raid is an attempt at the initial steps for extending a lifeline to FF11.
If players do their homework and still decide to play on a… quasi-elementary-school-birdhouse-project-failure of a private server like Horizon, aight cool homie, whatever makes you happy, the world could use more happy people. Go play it champ. Throw some Ridill’s on some shit. Go get that E-body. And a pair of gaiters.
Horizon keeps getting attributed as having a sense of community, but if people come over to FF11 with their own community already from FF14, as is the case in my group. Well, that becomes a moot point. So does FF11's existing stale community. What you'll have is an opportunity for people to just start importing their own communities into your greater one. Your feelings on FF14 tourists bringing their culture to this antique game may vary, but that's another topic.
Yoshi P, and Horizon have created a renaissance opportunity for FF11 I think. The conflict you all are having is actually probably good for the game. And that will be my last point for now that I wish to make, and also a thank you of sorts to the people here who care enough about the game to make noise.
I don’t wanna name names or anything, Draylo. Because I’m definitely not here to point fingers, Homsar. But seeing everyone aggressively hash it out here was indeed a significant factor in my groups decision of where to play. It gave me things to consider and trails of information to investigate elsewhere so I could make the right decision for my groups needs/interests.
So like… thanks you guys. Please don’t stop fighting the good/stupid fight. I need you. We need you. And you didn’t even know it. Promote whatever you want, and promote with all your sincerity. Sane or not.
Never stop duking it out.
Yall are like the ROV conclusion (spoilers) The winds of conflict must ever blow over vanadiel lest it be consumed by the cloud of darkness.
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