The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-30 17:08:51
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You can not change Ranged weapons, ammo is fine.
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-09-30 17:12:11
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DirectX said: »
I see a lot of people put Staunch tathlum in their DT set. Have I been missing something for years and you can change ammos without losing TP? I always assumed you would.
I know you can change Ammo with a ranged weapon equipped and not lose TP of course.


Ammo is fine, but if you switch to a boomerang or chakram, you lose tp.
 
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 Odin.Foxmulder
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By Odin.Foxmulder 2017-09-30 17:39:49
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Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Ammo is fine, but if you switch to a boomerang or chakram, you lose tp.

Can always pull with Darts!
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-09-30 18:47:34
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Odin.Foxmulder said: »
Fenrir.Skarwind said: »
Ammo is fine, but if you switch to a boomerang or chakram, you lose tp.

Can always pull with Darts!

I usually carry Tathlums to pull with on DRG, those work too.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 19:46:46
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Wow... I can not believe I didn't see that arke has 0 Defensive stats other then direct DT and status resist... Thanks for bringing that up, hopefully, I would have seen it before i started having pieces made...

The set is mostly useless, especially when it's cost is taken into account. No magic evasion means status ailments out the *** and that's a bad thing on a defensive set on anything worth talking about. You average gear set should have around 300 or so magic evasion removing that completely negates any ability to block status ailments and the +Resist's is too small to compensate unless your going to be under the floor anyway. So either your fighting extremely weak stuff that we don't care about, or your fighting something incredibly strong and choosing not to use any defensive buffs in your strat. I bought the body to play around with and the effect is very noticeable, went from resisting malign invocation to getting amnesia'd every time on Omen boss's. Same results with reisen T2/T3 NM's. Anyone saying otherwise likely doesn't use barspell stacking to block status ailments and is just used to always eating them.
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-30 23:04:00
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Wow... I can not believe I didn't see that arke has 0 Defensive stats other then direct DT and status resist... Thanks for bringing that up, hopefully, I would have seen it before i started having pieces made...

The set is mostly useless, especially when it's cost is taken into account. No magic evasion means status ailments out the *** and that's a bad thing on a defensive set on anything worth talking about. You average gear set should have around 300 or so magic evasion removing that completely negates any ability to block status ailments and the +Resist's is too small to compensate unless your going to be under the floor anyway. So either your fighting extremely weak stuff that we don't care about, or your fighting something incredibly strong and choosing not to use any defensive buffs in your strat. I bought the body to play around with and the effect is very noticeable, went from resisting malign invocation to getting amnesia'd every time on Omen boss's. Same results with reisen T2/T3 NM's. Anyone saying otherwise likely doesn't use barspell stacking to block status ailments and is just used to always eating them.

Yeah just shocked I didnt notice that, and happy i didnt spend the gil on that....
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 09:59:14
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Can always use an MEVA set when a mob casts something or readies a move that has heavy status debuffs and swap back to Arke for normal 'dt'. React allows this for all situations other than instant abilities such as 1 hrs.

-Sam
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 Asura.Arnan
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By Asura.Arnan 2017-10-01 12:54:56
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Personally I've had a lot of fun on PLD with arke gear, I cant speak for WAR but for PLD it opens up a lot of possibility's. I wouldn't be so quick to call it junk until you try tanking in 5/5 set against heavy damaging mob. Don't use it as your main, oh ***DT set no way, never but in the right situation it can give you insane amounts of tp.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 13:01:31
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Sammeh said: »
Can always use an MEVA set when a mob casts something or readies a move that has heavy status debuffs and swap back to Arke for normal 'dt'. React allows this for all situations other than instant abilities such as 1 hrs.

-Sam


This has nothing to do with boting your character. Virtually all dangerous ***have additional effects on their TP moves, otherwise this falls into the "stuff we don't care about category".

Asura.Arnan said: »
Personally I've had a lot of fun on PLD with arke gear, I cant speak for WAR but for PLD it opens up a lot of possibility's. I wouldn't be so quick to call it junk until you try tanking in 5/5 set against heavy damaging mob. Don't use it as your main, oh ***DT set no way, never but in the right situation it can give you insane amounts of tp.

Speaking purely from a DD's point of view, -DT sets are purely for taking a hit and then moving on, your not supposed to stay in them for any length of time. Hybrid -DT sets are for hanging out in and those won't involve Arke.

Arke is only useful in the situation where something is dangerous enough to warrant sacrificing DPS for damage reduction, but doesn't have any status effects. That is a pretty slim category and completely not worth SU3 gear made with millions of gil in crafting materials.
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 13:35:50
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Asura.Saevel said: »

This has nothing to do with boting your character. Virtually all dangerous ***have additional effects on their TP moves, otherwise this falls into the "stuff we don't care about category".


It's no more boting than gearswap. It's swapping in gear when the right situation fits.. Hardly different than measuring TP for Warcry like you posted a few threads ago. It looks at what's going on in game and taking those variables to equip for best possible outcome.

Also if no one cared, they wouldn't have posted asking about Arke. So stop being so self righteous on here. Just because it doesn't fit *you* doesn't mean other people don't want it.

-Sam
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 14:40:30
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Sammeh said: »
It's no more boting than gearswap. It's swapping in gear when the right situation fits..

It's boting. Gearswap changes gear based on actions you provide it, React on the other hand automatically generates those actions based on what the monster does. I'ts no different then a stun bot, heal bot, song bot, roll bot or farm bot.
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 15:03:59
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Gearswap allows you to react to things in game.. again no different. Let's take a very basic example: Most NIN LUA's automatically equip the AF boots at night time, by watching the game clock, for movement speed gear. Are you suggesting that is boting?

Gearswap has every capability of doing what react does through hooking into any of the functions that Windower offers. I've just moved it off to its own add-on and given it a command line interface to make it easier to manipulate while in-game.

Just because a tool has the capability - doesn't make it so. You sound like a democrat gun grabber; Guns don't kill people - people kill people. React doesn't bot - people can program it to do botish things, but it in itself doesn't bot - very similar to any lua/gearswap script/etc.

If you are so convinced of that - then I recommend you denounce Windower, Gearswap, and any other addon. As boting capability is 'programmed in' these tools.

My definition of boting/cheating is quite like what I've seen from other developer posts. "I don't allow you to do, what you couldn't natively do within the game." A fast eye and fast human reactions allow you to do everything 'react' does. It doesn't warp you around, change your speed, walk through walls, duplicate gil, sell items, trade things, automatically target things, etc.

There's gray area no doubt, but no more gray than other tools.

-Sam
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 15:17:01
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Haha a boter defending the use of said bot, like that hasn't happened before. Submit it to the Windower folks and have it posted on the addons for everyone to download instead of it being a *if you don't know then you don't deserve to know*.

And yes React is a bot, it crossed that line when it does actions for the player instead of automating actions the player made.
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 15:24:03
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Haha a boter defending the use of said bot, like that hasn't happened before.

When you can no longer debate the differences, you result to name calling. Like that hasn't happened before.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 15:34:10
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I already told you the difference, you just refuse to acknowledge your using a bot to play your character. Just because it's written in lua instead of DotNet or C doesn't change anything.

The difference is very simple, what is the initiator of the action, the player or a program? Are you playing the game or is your program playing it while you watch. React crosses that line because it's reading the action packets of the enemies along with party members and then directing your character accordingly.

It's no different then OhNoYouDont, which is used for stunning but also to turn away from TP moves.
 Bismarck.Gippali
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By Bismarck.Gippali 2017-10-01 15:35:37
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I'm confused, isn't this a thread about WAR?
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 15:37:59
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So if a script does things automatically its considered boting. So you agree that users of Gearswap bot? What about the augmenting addon for Oseem MAGA? What about reading in-game memory to determine distance of things like the distance plugin? Or automatically hitting the enter key with enternity? Or getting chat logs faster automatically through battlemod? How about aecho and using echo drops automatically? How about AutoRA to automatically shoot?

Please.. uninstall Windower... you boter and cheater.

-Sam
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 15:42:59
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Bismarck.Gippali said: »
I'm confused, isn't this a thread about WAR?

It was until a handful of people came charging in, some of whom didn't understand how magic resistance works. Then the answer was to use a bot to control your character like the elite boys do, which was a snide swipe at anyone who doesn't use React to automate all their characters (it's used for FAR more then just -DT swaps).

In a few hours its' going to turn into a gang fight, then it'll calm down later.

The original discussion was someone asking about the use of expensive defensive gear that doesn't have magic evasion. The response should be kind of straight forward, defensive gear that's missing defensive stats is missing the entire point of being defensive gear in the first place.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 15:49:09
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Sammeh said: »
So if a script does things automatically its considered boting

If a script initiates an action it's boting.


Sammeh said: »
So you agree that users of Gearswap bot?

Gearswap doesn't initiate an action, though because it's lua someone can craft action packet code into it to make it do this.

Quote:
What about the augmenting addon for Oseem MAGA?


That's an augment bot, yets it's boting.

Quote:
What about reading in-game memory to determine distance of things like the distance plugin?

What action is being initiated? That's just displaying information and is no different then displaying enemy HP percentage or parsing.

Quote:
How about aecho and using echo drops automatically?

Yep boting.

Quote:
Or getting chat logs faster automatically through battlemod?

How is that initiating an action?

By now your foaming at the mouth, yet the distinction should be pretty clear. Anything that initiates actions is by definition boting, things that automate actions the player has already initiated are not boting nor are things that display information already available in the game.

You are boting and recommending others to do the same. Now we can discuss whether it's benign or not, but don't piss on someone's leg and tell them it's raining.

Again have your code submitted to the Windower peoples and have it posted to the addon download list. If it's not boting there should be zero issue with them accepting it and making it available to all users.
 Quetzalcoatl.Langly
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By Quetzalcoatl.Langly 2017-10-01 15:51:33
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Welcome to the parthenon, a warrior's exercise in pedantry.
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 Odin.Umopepisdn
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By Odin.Umopepisdn 2017-10-01 15:57:16
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Changing gear isn't an action?

Come on guys, everyone decides for themselves what their acceptable level of "cheating" is in this game. To posture otherwise is a bit ridiculous, when we all know that windower and it's plugins are against the Terms of Service.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 16:02:19
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Odin.Umopepisdn said: »
Changing gear isn't an action?

Come on guys, everyone decides for themselves what their acceptable level of "cheating" is in this game. To posture otherwise is a bit ridiculous, when we all know that windower and it's plugins are against the Terms of Service.

I'm not talking about cheating at all, never once did I say cheating nor anything negative about it. Hell those who know me would laugh at the notion of me being against bots.

Just don't lie and *** about it. React is a bot for the simple reason that it's scanning for the actions of others and then initiating an independent action on the player. The player didn't chose to switch into DT gear, the program decided to do it. The player isn't reacting to an action in battle and making a strategic decision, the program is doing it for them. That's kind of the definition of a bot.
 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2017-10-01 16:08:40
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I the arke would be pretty useful for soloists like me. Party is a luxury and a decent whm as well as decent non-rare/ex gear are pretty hard to come by for pure soloists.

I could definitely use it for card farming or CP or cleaving. I might even use it on my pld for low tier fights where I don't have a strong whm support.

A lot of people just stick around their circle and thinking "yeah, this is the majority of the population". I have been around with lots of groups and I can see that there are about 5-7 out of 10 people know what they are doing. Out of those 5-7 only about 4ish have the gear for their stuff. The remainder couldn't be bothered because nobody they know is well equipped e ought to use it or just don't really know how to do it. I even have a 'dedicated' whm who convinced himself that he can't use yagrush because he changes weapon often.
 Odin.Umopepisdn
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By Odin.Umopepisdn 2017-10-01 16:12:36
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I also agree, but that doesn't mean everyone else does. The tone of your post seemed awful negative is all. And the definition you gave for a "bot" fits gearswap also in our minds. That's all. I also am not against any of these tools, but then again that's my choice to use on my character.

He was suggesting to use React, not forcing anyone to do so or quailfying it as necessary.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 16:16:53
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Leviathan.Andret said: »
I the arke would be pretty useful for soloists like me. Party is a luxury and a decent whm as well as decent non-rare/ex gear are pretty hard to come by for pure soloists.

I could definitely use it for card farming or CP or cleaving. I might even use it on my pld for low tier fights where I don't have a strong whm support.

A lot of people just stick around their circle and thinking "yeah, this is the majority of the population". I have been around with lots of groups and I can see that there are about 5-7 out of 10 people know what they are doing. Out of those 5-7 only about 4ish have the gear for their stuff. The remainder couldn't be bothered because nobody they know is well equipped e ought to use it or just don't really know how to do it. I even have a 'dedicated' whm who convinced himself that he can't use yagrush because he changes weapon often.

Yes it would be useful, if the cost isn't an issue, for low level stuff where your not really in danger anyway. I said as much earlier too.

When I give advice I'm normally speaking towards the high end because that's where tweaking and pushing the envelope become super important and lots of hard decisions are made. At the lower end you can get away with lots of stuff, hell I have a H2H set I made with RF, DK and TK sets for /MNK silliness. The funny part was I can almost keep up with real MNKs.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 16:31:50
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Odin.Umopepisdn said: »
And the definition you gave for a "bot" fits gearswap also in our minds.

GS in it's default configuration doesn't, it will change into gear you manually tell it to change into.

Odin.Umopepisdn said: »
The tone of your post seemed awful negative is all.

That's projection, people have a very negative emotional reaction towards the word "Bot" and project that on me. Personally I don't care, I've used lots of automated programs since the very first got made. I know the developers of several of the more popular ones and participate in that community.

The discussion was originally about Arke gear for defensive sets, Arke doesn't have magic evasion which renders the user especially vulnerable to additional effects which SE loves to give to NMs. The Amnesia / Stun / Petrified / ect.. effect is more problematic then the 500 damage received. I stated this and the reaction was "but but React!".
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By Sammeh 2017-10-01 16:44:20
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Asura.Saevel said: »
The player didn't chose to switch into DT gear, the program decided to do it.

The thing that's funny is you're using the exact same logic of programming gearswap.

Quote:
GS in it's default configuration doesn't, it will change into gear you manually tell it to change into.

React in it's default configuration doesn't do anything.

Quote:
The player isn't reacting to an action in battle and making a strategic decision, the program is doing it for them. That's kind of the definition of a bot.

The player had to decide to react and program into react the reaction. And also take into account what may happen negatively to this reaction. For example - equipping Cure Potency received gear while tanking - could take you out of DT gear at a critical moment.

Ultimately the player still made the decision. They just made the decision well prior to the event occuring. This is no different than making the decision to equip a different earring depending on Warcry or your TP during a weapon skill. YOU didn't decide that. The script did.. on your behalf... based on what you told it to do.

Your own examples justify its use.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-10-01 16:55:31
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Your not even reading anymore...

Dude you wrote a bot, the same as a stun bot or a cure bot.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-10-01 17:19:37
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TLDR: Using Arke makes you a bot.

You will never change Saevel's mind. And if you do, he will claim it was his idea all along.
I've found, just post your opinion and move on. Most are quietly agreeing with you.

Saevel, you do great when you explain why you think what you think. It all falls apart when you act like you know why others think what they think.

Back to WAR things please! This is one of the few job threads that is still interesting and on topic.
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