The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-26 23:08:42
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
target mdb doesn't matter anyways.

For the relative increase of MAB it does. It's no different then attack, diminishing returns being what it is. Unless your going to go on record saying defense doesn't matter when determining the relative value of +30 attack.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-26 23:11:47
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Ramuh.Austar said: »
target mdb doesn't matter anyways.

For the relative increase of MAB it does. It's no different then attack, diminishing returns being what it is. Unless your going to go on record saying defense doesn't matter when determining the relative value of +30 attack.
defense doesn't matter when determining the relative value of attack until caps come into play.

(407 / 400) = (407 / 0.7) / (400 / 0.7) just like (1330 / 1300) = (1330 / 600) / (1300 / 600)
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2017-09-26 23:14:13
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I know it's bonus, if I didn't I wouldn't have said:

Quote:
At 100MAB, before belt and neck, 10MAB is a 5% damage increase, and at 300MAB, 10MAB is a 2.5% damage increase.

Also you make another good point as to why it's not reliable to assume a base -MDB. Not every enemy has the same MDef, hence it's simpler to calculate based on no -MDB.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-26 23:21:27
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Umm all you did was multiply top and bottom by the same number, which doesn't change anything and is irrelevant to our discussion. Malaise isn't a percentage.

300 / 150 = 2.0

150 * 0.7 = 105, a 45 point reduction when Malaise is a 30 point reduction. You don't multiply by malaise anymore then you'd multiply by -100 defense. What you like to do is make everything into a decimal and then add 1.0 to both parts to avoid the nasty divide by a negative that would happen. Its an overly complicated way to avoid just stating what the game is doing anyway.

Phoenix.Thorbean said: »
Not every enemy has the same MDef, hence it's simpler to calculate based on no -MDB.


That would be like calculating our damage without assuming Berserk, Frailty, Bard songs, Cor Rolls, or any of the other modifiers that exist every moment of every day. It would yield a value that's correct yet totally useless in the context of the game. Thankfully we have context, in any situation where a WAR is going to use Cloud Splitter, Malaise should be present, otherwise Mistral Axe is a far better WS, same with Savage Blade. The entire point of Cloud Splitter is to abuse uncapped mRatio and generate big numbers while sacrificing melee damage.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-26 23:29:05
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mob could have 1000 MDB and you'd get the same result, which is why mdb doesn't matter when determining relative increase, same with attack vs defense
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 Fenrir.Tarowyn
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2017-09-26 23:45:05
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Umm all you did was multiply top and bottom by the same number, which doesn't change anything and is irrelevant to our discussion. Malaise isn't a percentage.

300 / 150 = 2.0

150 * 0.7 = 105, a 45 point reduction when Malaise is a 30 point reduction. You don't multiply by malaise anymore then you'd multiply by -100 defense. What you like to do is make everything into a decimal and then add 1.0 to both parts to avoid the nasty divide by a negative that would happen. Its an overly complicated way to avoid just stating what the game is doing anyway.

Phoenix.Thorbean said: »
Not every enemy has the same MDef, hence it's simpler to calculate based on no -MDB.


That would be like calculating our damage without assuming Berserk, Frailty, Bard songs, Cor Rolls, or any of the other modifiers that exist every moment of every day. It would yield a value that's correct yet totally useless in the context of the game. Thankfully we have context, in any situation where a WAR is going to use Cloud Splitter, Malaise should be present, otherwise Mistral Axe is a far better WS, same with Savage Blade. The entire point of Cloud Splitter is to abuse uncapped mRatio and generate big numbers while sacrificing melee damage.

300/150 = 2
307/150 = 2.046

300/70 = 4.285
307/70 = 4.385

2.046 / 2 = 1.023
4.385 / 4.285= 1.023

Presence of malaise doesn't affect the percentage change when adding/removing MAB. Acumen will certainly throw things off though.
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2017-09-27 00:17:29
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Snip

Nobody is talking about what buffs are best for what WS or what WS you should and shouldn't be using. We're talking about relative % increases based on specific TP and MAB values. The only time I mentioned Malaise and % in the same paragraph was in reference to the relative %increase, which I edited once I'd taken a shower and actually thought about it. That's what happens when I accept what someone says without thinking.

Quote:
That would be like calculating our damage without assuming Berserk, Frailty, Bard songs, Cor Rolls, or any of the other modifiers that exist every moment of every day. It would yield a value that's correct yet totally useless in the context of the game.

You need a base value to work out relative %increases.
Base ftp (so we can work out how much of a % increase adding 0.1 is)
MAB (so we can work out how much MAB we need to add to increase our Total MAtt by X% (X% being the %ftp increase))

Using the zerk/all buffs thing to illustrate. on a 10.0 ftp WS, with 30%WSD is it better to add 1%WSD or 0.1 http://ftp. You don't need to know what buffs you have active to work it out, all you need is the ftp and current WSD%.


This conversation would be a lot easier on the nerves if there wasn't so many strawmen floating around...
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By Shiva.Siviard 2017-09-27 02:28:20
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Phoenix.Thorbean said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
That + 900 Dunna Maliase, which is what should be present if your using CS. -30 MDB kinda changes the mRatio calcs, which is why you should be using instead of straight MAB.

OP didn't specify a value for target MDB so I didn't include it and didn't want to assume what buffs were and weren't present.

Edit: Since -MDB applies to base MRatio (base becomes 2 at -50) and ratio from MAB, the %increase should remain the same no?

TL:DR
It's situational depending on external debuffs.

I'm sorry, I should have been a little more specific of the information while I was doing testing.

My targets were Blanched Mandragora (100-101) and as for food/buffs, I wasn't using any food. The only buffs I was getting was Haste II and x2 March from trusts, so nothing that would directly affect my damage. I also wasn't using any JA like Berzerk, Warcry, etc.
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By Phoenix.Thorbean 2017-09-27 03:08:23
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No worries! The relative increase will remain the same unless you increase your starting MAB or http://FTP.

Calculate how much of a % increase 0.1 equals compared to your starting http://ftp.
Code
Base ftp||%increase granted by 0.1ftp
------------------------------
1ftp || 10%
2ftp || 5%
3ftp || 3.33%
4ftp || 2.5%
5ftp || 2%
6ftp || 1.66%
7ftp || 1.43%
8ftp || 1.25%
9ftp || 1.11%
10ftp|| 1%


Find how much MAB you need to increase your total MAttack by 1%:
(Gear+Trait MAB + 100) = Total
187+100 = 287
287/100 = 2.87 MAB per 1% increase, so we multiply 2.87 by the % increase granted by Fotia to find how much MAB we need to match the % improvement.

Now we can add all that into 1 table with 287 Magic attack as the base line.
Code
Base ftp||%increase granted by 0.1ftp||Additional MAB required to match Fotia
------------------------------
1ftp || 10%   || 28.7
2ftp || 5%    || 14.35
3ftp || 3.33% || 9.56
4ftp || 2.5%  || 7.175
5ftp || 2%    || 5.74
6ftp || 1.66% || 4.76
7ftp || 1.43% || 4.1
8ftp || 1.25% || 3.587
9ftp || 1.11% || 3.185 
10ftp|| 1%    || 2.87


As MAB changes, just recalculate how much you need to increase by 1%, then multiply by the value in the middle column for your FTP anchors to get the MAB required to match Fotia.
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By Shiva.Flowen 2017-09-29 08:18:09
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Arico said: »
For great axe, are there any situations where chango isn't the best choice? I'd imagine maybe Bravura for some offtanking or conq if you really need that berserk bonus?

Bravura for if you need to stay alive and still deal high damage. Conq does the same thing as Rag only slightly weaker, Ukkon is a weaker version of Conq and only useful if you spend a lot of time Amnesiad.

It boils down to the best GAXE WS is Upheaval and it's 85% VIT. Then Ukko's Fury is only two hits that don't copy fTP and have low total http://fTP.

I'll add (as a bravura user) the evasion down effect also lands frequently on anything, making it the highest acc option and adding a small buff to others. Unfortunately the def down effect doesn't land on anything worth while very often. Metatron torment is a solid ws which can outperform upheaval at 1000tp (when warcry is down) with the amount of WSD+ you can pump it with these days and its 80% STR mod. GA is about skillchains and bravura helps keep you alive, hitting accurately to ensure you close that skillchain.

Upheaval > Steel Cyclone > Upheaval > Kings Justice > Upheaval > Metatron Torment for a 6 step double light is fun.

I find rag and bravura to be a great combo. As Saevel stated Chango is better for skill chains and significantly boosting upheaval.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-29 10:27:02
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Yeah I've done some pretty nice MT's before, it doesn't scale up with TP bonus but it's damage is sufficient enough. Just spamming it along (to keep AM effect up) will create light SC's and you can even get creative with Sekkanoki -> MT -> King's -> MT for a quick double light. MT's -defense down is pretty solid, unfortunately since we gear it for damage it doesn't land frequently. That's what Armor Break is for though.
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By abknight 2017-09-30 00:06:19
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What do you guys think about full Arke+1 for a full-time hybrid set? Almost caps -DT without accessories and has a ton of accuracy, but not sure how -30 status ailments resist works or how +50 dmg to TP works.

I vaguely remember, from PLD forums years ago, that the dmg converted to TP does not actually mitigate any dmg, so this wouldn't add to total damage reduction, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the formula for dmg taken to TP based on this value. I'd also be interested in knowing whether the status ailment resistance is a flat number on some larger scale, or a percentage.
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-30 07:11:50
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I know I am looking into getting at least the Arke NQ soon it looks very nice to me. Unfortunately being on a lower pop server Tartarian chains can be a pain to get ahold of. Also remember (this is directed if you are wanting to use Bravura) Bravura AM is -20% DT but does not exceed the 50% cap, gives us a lot more room to play with.

And unfortunately, Saevel, your opinion on Ukon I have to firmly disagree with. I have it, and I love it never once regretted making it. It puts out incredible dmg numbers in actual testing. It is just a different beast to work with and you must know its place. Ambuscade this month? Ukon. Schah adds, Ukon (this one is weird but tested a few times idk why it's better here) Basically if the fight isn't going to end in 1-2 mighty strikes rounds OR you do not have an easy way to put up aftermath, generally Ukon. Thos 6-9k Crits consistently add up. Sadly, I may not make Conq, but Chango is next and I am looking forward to adding it to my arsenal.
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By Taint 2017-09-30 08:17:10
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abknight said: »
What do you guys think about full Arke+1 for a full-time hybrid set? Almost caps -DT without accessories and has a ton of accuracy, but not sure how -30 status ailments resist works or how +50 dmg to TP works.

I vaguely remember, from PLD forums years ago, that the dmg converted to TP does not actually mitigate any dmg, so this wouldn't add to total damage reduction, but I'm not sure I've ever seen the formula for dmg taken to TP based on this value. I'd also be interested in knowing whether the status ailment resistance is a flat number on some larger scale, or a percentage.


Every WAR/PLD should have an Arke set. (NQ is fine)

The TP return is crazy. I currently use it as my Hybrid in all situations. The lack of meva is the only issue, I have yet to find it a problem but people love some meva on the WAR forum.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 10:33:29
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
And unfortunately, Saevel, your opinion on Ukon I have to firmly disagree with. I have it, and I love it never once regretted making it. It puts out incredible dmg numbers in actual testing. It is just a different beast to work with and you must know its place. Ambuscade this month? Ukon. Schah adds, Ukon (this one is weird but tested a few times idk why it's better here) Basically if the fight isn't going to end in 1-2 mighty strikes rounds OR you do not have an easy way to put up aftermath, generally Ukon. Thos 6-9k Crits consistently add up. Sadly, I may not make Conq, but Chango is next and I am looking forward to adding it to my arsenal.

Ukkon does the same thing Rag or Conq does, spam one WS over and over again for pure damage. In that regard it falls behind Rag (well Resolution in general) period, end of story. There are several factors but it boils down to Upheaval being VIT mod and Ukko's Fury being ***. A 3K AM effect doubles your melee damage yet does nothing for your WS damage and your stuck with a bad WS selection. Nerfing the majority of your damage to increase the minority of your is a bad strategy. Now if Ukko's copied fTP or if Upheaval was STR based then this might change a bit but neither of those are true.

This isn't an opinion, it's the raw truth. You can say you disagree that water is wet, won't change the water being wet.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 10:53:46
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Taint said: »
The TP return is crazy. I currently use it as my Hybrid in all situations. The lack of meva is the only issue, I have yet to find it a problem but people love some meva on the WAR forum.

I seen problems on almost any actual dangerous situation the game has. Things like Amnesia, Stun, Paralyze, Petrify and such can cripple your DPS. Fights fall into two buckets, ones we care about and ones we don't, the ones we care about it's a very bad idea to wear -MEVD in.

Perfect example is WoC and Kouryu, two high end fights where status ailments will cripple you. In WoC's case you would use Barthundra + Barpetra + Double Thunder Carols + Double Earth Carols resulting in a near complete immunity to the AoE stun effect and the conal petrify effect. Wearing dumb ***Argosy or Arke is a giant middle finger to all your BRD's, WHM's and fellow melees and you'll end up stunned frequently because it likes to spam Impact Stream. With all that MEVD stacked it won't land and you can just wail on him constantly. Same with Kouryu and Earth Resistance, it will let you resist his breakga and slow effect of Tebbad Wing. Lots of high end fights are like this, you pick one or two status ailments your locking out while you burn something down.

Then on the mid tier you do much the same, not as dangerous so the DD being constantly enfeebled won't cause a wipe, just an embarrassed DD. You pick out an enfeeble you don't want to deal with, put up a 230 point barspell and hopefully a bar-status and then don't TP in dumb stuff. Most heavy DD bodies have 50~60 magic evasion on them, so wearing Arke is like taking away 50~60 points from your WHM's barspell.

Then we have fights we don't care about where it's not going to make a difference. I've found that these are the places you can get away with doing silly stuff since it doesn't effect the outcome in any meaningful way. This is why I have Arke body in the "I don't care" set.

There is one more place and it's super situational, basically fights where there is absolutely zero change of you ever passing a regular resistance check. In that case the +Status Resist is a last ditch chance of avoiding something you wouldn't of anyway.

-=Edit=-

Checked the MEVD on my TP and DT gear
TP: 349 (Montante +1), 338 (Chango), 324 (Ragnarok)
DT: 335 (regular DT), 320 (Bravura AM set)

That is what's being thrown away for 5/5 Arke. Funny part is my DT set is a full 50% DT, 25% haste, 22 Store TP, 34% DA, 15% status resist and only 15~20 less accuracy then my primary TP sets. This isn't very expensive and allows a WAR to take hits like a champ and keep slugging back.
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By Blazed1979 2017-09-30 12:30:47
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has the "resist all status ailments +" been factored in?
I haven't played for 2-2.5 months but nothing was giving me any trouble as PLD in full Arke+1 (well not any more than usual)
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 12:43:11
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Blazed1979 said: »
has the "resist all status ailments +" been factored in?
I haven't played for 2-2.5 months but nothing was giving me any trouble as PLD in full Arke+1 (well not any more than usual)

It's a flat roll to ignore a status ailment after it's gone through the full MEVD rolls, it's the same as the resist status traits. And yes I factored in the +status resist and it's no where near enough.

2 Magic Evasion = 1% resist rate, the same as magic accuracy. In fact MEVD is just the opposing side of MACC. The goal is to get enough MEVD that the enemy won't pass all 2~3 rolls and thus you either fully resist the effect or get a dramatically reduced duration (5s instead of 20s). It's the exact same reason we used Vex and Attunment.

Blazed1979 said: »
(well not any more than usual)

Because you got hit with every single status effect and didn't even bother.

Stacking elemental resistance and not ignoring MEVD enables people to lock out one or two annoying status ailments. That's why I gave the WoC as an example, when we do that we never get stunned even when it's spamming Impact Stream and just burn it down. Several NM's have one status ailment that's super annoying, like Amnesia, Stun, Petrify and so forth. Locking it out makes the fight much easier.

Then again we don't SMN AC burn everything, so the people here might have trouble understanding fighting stuff past CL130 with melees.
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By Leviathan.Brotherhood 2017-09-30 12:51:10
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
has the "resist all status ailments +" been factored in?
I haven't played for 2-2.5 months but nothing was giving me any trouble as PLD in full Arke+1 (well not any more than usual)

It's a flat roll to ignore a status ailment after it's gone through the full MEVD rolls, it's the same as the resist status traits. And yes I factored in the +status resist and it's no where near enough.

2 Magic Evasion = 1% resist rate, the same as magic accuracy. In fact MEVD is just the opposing side of MACC. The goal is to get enough MEVD that the enemy won't pass all 2~3 rolls and thus you either fully resist the effect or get a dramatically reduced duration (5s instead of 20s). It's the exact same reason we used Vex and Attunment.

Blazed1979 said: »
(well not any more than usual)

Because you got hit with every single status effect and didn't even bother.

Stacking elemental resistance and not ignoring MEVD enables people to lock out one or two annoying status ailments. That's why I gave the WoC as an example, when we do that we never get stunned even when it's spamming Impact Stream and just burn it down. Several NM's have one status ailment that's super annoying, like Amnesia, Stun, Petrify and so forth. Locking it out makes the fight much easier.

Then again we don't SMN AC burn everything, so the people here might have trouble understanding fighting stuff past CL130 with melees.
So then you only need 204 M.evasion to get 102%(value I use on SIRD set) and you should be resisting every single thing in game. I think the math is not right then. Given SE likes to make 5% or more of anything unavoidable, you would only need 97% with a 2% over for error in mathing. I still think that formula is wrong. Maybe 5~10 M.evasion = 1% where did you get your number base?
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-09-30 12:54:20
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no because monsters have varying amounts of magic accuracy and some ailments may have a higher rate as well.
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 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-09-30 12:58:11
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Does anyone use Hybrid sets on things like Albumen or WoC? I certainly don't, I mele in normal TP gear. If this conversation is about the viability of Arke when you drop into a hybrid set to reduce AOE damage, I am not sure why the discussion is revolving around resisting statuses. When you are investing a lot of defensive buffs to resist certain ailments, you would not be using your hybrid set...

The Hybrid sets are for things like Kin last 25%, maybe Craven if you are choosing not to wilt, or if you rip hate and want to reduce incoming damage a bit while still being able to DD.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 13:16:36
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Leviathan.Brotherhood said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
has the "resist all status ailments +" been factored in?
I haven't played for 2-2.5 months but nothing was giving me any trouble as PLD in full Arke+1 (well not any more than usual)

It's a flat roll to ignore a status ailment after it's gone through the full MEVD rolls, it's the same as the resist status traits. And yes I factored in the +status resist and it's no where near enough.

2 Magic Evasion = 1% resist rate, the same as magic accuracy. In fact MEVD is just the opposing side of MACC. The goal is to get enough MEVD that the enemy won't pass all 2~3 rolls and thus you either fully resist the effect or get a dramatically reduced duration (5s instead of 20s). It's the exact same reason we used Vex and Attunment.

Blazed1979 said: »
(well not any more than usual)

Because you got hit with every single status effect and didn't even bother.

Stacking elemental resistance and not ignoring MEVD enables people to lock out one or two annoying status ailments. That's why I gave the WoC as an example, when we do that we never get stunned even when it's spamming Impact Stream and just burn it down. Several NM's have one status ailment that's super annoying, like Amnesia, Stun, Petrify and so forth. Locking it out makes the fight much easier.

Then again we don't SMN AC burn everything, so the people here might have trouble understanding fighting stuff past CL130 with melees.
So then you only need 204 M.evasion to get 102%(value I use on SIRD set) and you should be resisting every single thing in game. I think the math is not right then. Given SE likes to make 5% or more of anything unavoidable, you would only need 97% with a 2% over for error in mathing. I still think that formula is wrong. Maybe 5~10 M.evasion = 1% where did you get your number base?


Cause you only need 204 accuracy to hit everything in the game right.

It's (Caster Magic Acc - Defender Magic Evasion)/2 + fSTAT + <Base Value>. Think the Base Value is somewhere near 50% but it's never been confirmed. 1 Elemental resist = 1 magic evasion from everything we've seen so don't forget to add those. Also enfeebles need to overcome two separate rolls, first being the regular elemental resistance roll, then a second enfeeble specific roll. So if something is doing Amnesia, it first needs to overcome a MEVD check on fire resistance, then another MEVD check against amnesia resistance, both of these resistances checks use Magic Evasion as it's base value before adding the rest. Also your character has a C rank skill for it's base magic evasion, so around 370 at level 99. Then whatever you get from gifts so that's +36.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-30 13:24:31
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Leviathan.Sidra said: »
The Hybrid sets are for things like Kin last 25%, or if you rip hate and want to reduce incoming damage a bit while still being able to DD.

You still wouldn't use Arke for that. Cacturai have several status ailments including Amnesia and you should have Barfira + Baramnesia on you. Also we can't look at these items in a vacuum as there are several other items that also reduce damage without nerfing your resistance.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Souveran_Cuirass

Body costs 180K for the NQ abjuration. And then Sulevia's +1/2 exists along with Amn gr eaves and then the various accessories. The Arke set just sucks for defense yet it's almost entirely focused on defense. At least the Argosy set is offensively focused so you can use it for WS's. Hell the Arke stuff isn't even cheap, body is 4 million and the other pieces are various prices.

There is the set I use for "DT", it's technically a "Hybrid" because it has a ton of offensive power and maintains DPS while still reducing damage. Someone could use a different body and legs if they wanted, plenty of options to chose from, I went with those because the +accuracy and HP worked well for me.

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By Blazed1979 2017-09-30 15:04:47
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Then again we don't SMN AC burn everything, so the people here might have trouble understanding fighting stuff past CL130 with melees.
never had probs melee burning anything other than zerde and not for the reasons that are relevant in this discussion.
example (actually first attempt as blu) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKS7atW_T8U
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By Blazed1979 2017-09-30 15:11:05
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Leviathan.Sidra said: »
Does anyone use Hybrid sets on things like Albumen or WoC? I certainly don't, I mele in normal TP gear. If this conversation is about the viability of Arke when you drop into a hybrid set to reduce AOE damage, I am not sure why the discussion is revolving around resisting statuses. When you are investing a lot of defensive buffs to resist certain ailments, you would not be using your hybrid set...
yup - same.
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2017-09-30 16:34:05
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Wow... I can not believe I didn't see that arke has 0 Defensive stats other then direct DT and status resist... Thanks for bringing that up, hopefully, I would have seen it before i started having pieces made...
 Fenrir.Skarwind
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2017-09-30 16:40:31
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Wow... I can not believe I didn't see that arke has 0 Defensive stats other then direct DT and status resist... Thanks for bringing that up, hopefully, I would have seen it before i started having pieces made...

It's still fun to play with on some things. Especially if you are messing around cleaving for gain exp. I don't even bother going BLU anymore.

Bravura+Arke+Retaliation is pretty fun.

Also I ended up using the head piece in my hybrid set to cap haste.

Honestly I've used it on Omen Bosses/AV and didn't get beat down too bad.

5/5 Arke, Hearty Earring/Staunch Tathlum also seems like a pretty fun combo.

I end up going back to Souveran for full turtle or a Sulevia Hybrid set most of the time though.
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By Taint 2017-09-30 16:42:30
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Wow... I can not believe I didn't see that arke has 0 Defensive stats other then direct DT and status resist... Thanks for bringing that up, hopefully, I would have seen it before i started having pieces made...


Don't believe the hype. Arke is very useful to have. Even if you just use it for cleaving and midcore tanking. The TP returns while taking damage are incredible.
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