Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
Prime WS Information, Testing, Discussion
Care to explain why "lol shining one"???
All the 2H and ranged weapons are best in class for their weapon type, no exceptions. Even Opashoro as a mage weapon not a physical weapon is super strong for magic damage dealing with its aftermath and stats.
How is GS any better than GA/GK/Polearm.
Only thing it has is four jobs can use it which only matters if you actually play two of those jobs at any high level. And if you do, probably want the strongest weapon for that job, which is not the prime GS but one of the other primes.
The other two jobs are tanks and do not typically use a DD weapon.
How is GS any better than GA/GK/Polearm.
Only thing it has is four jobs can use it which only matters if you actually play two of those jobs at any high level. And if you do, probably want the strongest weapon for that job, which is not the prime GS but one of the other primes.
The other two jobs are tanks and do not typically use a DD weapon.
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RUN with GS is a great option, but yeah I've never used it on PLD. The 7-10stp on the GS really helps its value along with the job options.
GKT is crazy good but that's also because it gives SAM's toolkit its best physical WS. I've even started using it for Jinpu/Kagero spam since the TPbonus on Aeonic gets wasted so often on SAM.
GKT is crazy good but that's also because it gives SAM's toolkit its best physical WS. I've even started using it for Jinpu/Kagero spam since the TPbonus on Aeonic gets wasted so often on SAM.
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Guess we roll in different circles, but what are the situations where you're on RUN and doing damage? EP farm?
Every time we use RUN, they're tanking something and trying to hold hate, and rarely if ever have the DD buffs to take advantage of a PDL GS. Seems like the PDT II and +23 Enmity from Epeo would be better than doing a smidge more damage with a prime weapon. I'd say unless you're buffed to the teeth, the AM3 from Epeo would do better DPS than prime as well.
Guess if you're ***-stomping some ambu and don't need to worry about taking damage then you could swap onto your prime GS, but I'd hardly call that a compelling reason to advocate for GS over a different weapon, to faceroll easy content on RUN faster. It's definitely a factor (if you play that job), but like...1% bump in favorability to me.
Every time we use RUN, they're tanking something and trying to hold hate, and rarely if ever have the DD buffs to take advantage of a PDL GS. Seems like the PDT II and +23 Enmity from Epeo would be better than doing a smidge more damage with a prime weapon. I'd say unless you're buffed to the teeth, the AM3 from Epeo would do better DPS than prime as well.
Guess if you're ***-stomping some ambu and don't need to worry about taking damage then you could swap onto your prime GS, but I'd hardly call that a compelling reason to advocate for GS over a different weapon, to faceroll easy content on RUN faster. It's definitely a factor (if you play that job), but like...1% bump in favorability to me.
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Guess we roll in different circles, but what are the situations where you're on RUN and doing damage? EP farm?
Not for doing damage, but for closing Gravitation to Darkness skillchains on B/F and potentially D/H bosses. Drastically speeds up those boss kills for mage strat.
I haven't gone out and parsed RUN in a DD setup to compare to Lionheart R15, but maybe I'll go check it out.
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Taint said: »
GKT is crazy good but that's also because it gives SAM's toolkit its best physical WS. I've even started using it for Jinpu/Kagero spam since the TPbonus on Aeonic gets wasted so often on SAM.
I'm on Kusanagi 100% of the time now even for hybrids. The ridiculous magic accuracy skill on Kusanagi makes the hybrids viable even on really high magic evasion mobs, eg the Sortie basement bosses.
Kusanagi makes hybrids hit for 99s on sortie basement bosses. No other weapon can do that.
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Quote:
All the 2H and ranged weapons are best in class for their weapon type, no exceptions. Even Opashoro as a mage weapon not a physical weapon is super strong for magic damage dealing with its aftermath and stats.
There's is also testing on the monk forms that indicates Maru Kala performs more like a 2 handed weapon than a 1 handed weapon. It may also fall into the same tier as the G axe, G sword, scythe, bow, etc
Asura.Melliny said: »
Quote:
All the 2H and ranged weapons are best in class for their weapon type, no exceptions. Even Opashoro as a mage weapon not a physical weapon is super strong for magic damage dealing with its aftermath and stats.
There's is also testing on the monk forms that indicates Maru Kala performs more like a 2 handed weapon than a 1 handed weapon. It may also fall into the same tier as the G axe, G sword, scythe, bow, etc
I assume you're talking about just output numbers, not something crazy like they changed the pDIF cap on it.
Quote:
I assume you're talking about just output numbers, not something crazy like they changed the pDIF cap on it.
We have a pretty good idea of what Maru kala's mods are in the ballpark of.
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55614/mnk-h2h-choices/6/
Quote:
It's somewhere around
3.092 at 1000
11.93~11.95 at 3000
60%STR/DEX
Which means H2H is closer to 2h WSs than 1h WSs, so MNK and PUP can be happy.
EDIT: Assuming it scales exactly linear. 2000TP would be around 7.516
3.092 at 1000
11.93~11.95 at 3000
60%STR/DEX
Which means H2H is closer to 2h WSs than 1h WSs, so MNK and PUP can be happy.
EDIT: Assuming it scales exactly linear. 2000TP would be around 7.516
The exact numbers are still a little fuzzy, but they're close enough to zero in on the weaponskil's power level. It's more on par with a 2 handed weaponskill than a 1 handed one. Maru Kala is a lot better than people realize. And Varga Purnikawa is also damn good with victory smite when impetus is up. Like... it's close to Verethragna. Not so much when impetus is down of course, but then you have maru kala to fall back upon. It's looking pretty impressive.
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Dodik said: »
Taint said: »
GKT is crazy good but that's also because it gives SAM's toolkit its best physical WS. I've even started using it for Jinpu/Kagero spam since the TPbonus on Aeonic gets wasted so often on SAM.
I'm on Kusanagi 100% of the time now even for hybrids. The ridiculous magic accuracy skill on Kusanagi makes the hybrids viable even on really high magic evasion mobs, eg the Sortie basement bosses.
Kusanagi makes hybrids hit for 99s on sortie basement bosses. No other weapon can do that.
Dodik said: »
Taint said: »
GKT is crazy good but that's also because it gives SAM's toolkit its best physical WS. I've even started using it for Jinpu/Kagero spam since the TPbonus on Aeonic gets wasted so often on SAM.
I'm on Kusanagi 100% of the time now even for hybrids. The ridiculous magic accuracy skill on Kusanagi makes the hybrids viable even on really high magic evasion mobs, eg the Sortie basement bosses.
Kusanagi makes hybrids hit for 99s on sortie basement bosses. No other weapon can do that.
I see this a lot, but Doji can do that.
Magic accuracy wise, Kusanagi wins but it's only by 41 @ stage 4 via more MACC skill, 54 @ stage 5 (statistically insignificant number of people even need to know this).
Damage wise, Kusanagi either loses or at best ties. +155mdmg and 500 TP Bonus (faster WSs = more damage, hybrids are extremely sensitive to fTP) on Doji. vs 10 or 12% PDL from AM3.
I have never had macc problems in Sortie w/ Jinpu and Kagero. BRD sings a Wind Threnody on E and Fire Threnody on G as we're running in and that's your macc sorted; the extra 41 from Kusanagi is meaningless (especially if you're using stewpots or Oden over grape). I swap to Doji for all Hybrid bosses for the faster WSs (especially useful against C/G because of the frequent TP wipes) and have no trouble hitting 99k. Kusanagi for everything else. The weapon that I haven't used since getting Kusa stage 4 is Masamune; even on things where I'm compelled to spam Light SCs, Kusanagi's AM makes up for the 10% Fudo bonus on Masamune and then some as long as I've got good enough ratio.
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Should have said that Kusanagi is more consistent than Doji with hybrids, at least for me.
Typically only have wind threnody on E boss for $reasons and prime hits 99s consistently on G boss (koki) and Botulus (kagero) in the basement.
YMMV but my hybrid sets have some macc specific pieces to make them more consistent taking into account the fact I will not have threnody most of the time. Also use rolanberry daifuku for the extra macc because of this.
The TP bonus on doji often goes out the window with how much TP sam gets and potentially warcry on top of that.
Typically only have wind threnody on E boss for $reasons and prime hits 99s consistently on G boss (koki) and Botulus (kagero) in the basement.
YMMV but my hybrid sets have some macc specific pieces to make them more consistent taking into account the fact I will not have threnody most of the time. Also use rolanberry daifuku for the extra macc because of this.
The TP bonus on doji often goes out the window with how much TP sam gets and potentially warcry on top of that.
Asura.Melliny said: »
Quote:
I assume you're talking about just output numbers, not something crazy like they changed the pDIF cap on it.
We have a pretty good idea of what Maru kala's mods are in the ballpark of.
https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/55614/mnk-h2h-choices/6/
Quote:
It's somewhere around
3.092 at 1000
11.93~11.95 at 3000
60%STR/DEX
Which means H2H is closer to 2h WSs than 1h WSs, so MNK and PUP can be happy.
EDIT: Assuming it scales exactly linear. 2000TP would be around 7.516
3.092 at 1000
11.93~11.95 at 3000
60%STR/DEX
Which means H2H is closer to 2h WSs than 1h WSs, so MNK and PUP can be happy.
EDIT: Assuming it scales exactly linear. 2000TP would be around 7.516
The exact numbers are still a little fuzzy, but they're close enough to zero in on the weaponskil's power level. It's more on par with a 2 handed weaponskill than a 1 handed one. Maru Kala is a lot better than people realize. And Varga Purnikawa is also damn good with victory smite when impetus is up. Like... it's close to Verethragna. Not so much when impetus is down of course, but then you have maru kala to fall back upon. It's looking pretty impressive.
They are on the better side of PDL traits and okayish on the equipment side. As a 1h they need less attack/defense down to use it. Plus it's a WSD WS so Mpaca coming up shallow on PDL options doesn't hurt it as it might other h2h WSs or mpaca users. They'd get plenty of damage out of PDL AM or Song.
So the question is, what is the rate of the double/triple damage ? or is it only on first swing? and is it true there it proc more when it higher stages than stage 3 and by how much?
Dubaiii said: »
So the question is what is the rate of the double/triple damage ? or is it only on first swing? and is it true there it proc more when it higher stages than stage 3 and by how much?
AFAIK:
Stage 3: no double/triple proc
Stage 4: ~15% chance to double proc
Stage 5: ~30% chance to triple proc
First swing only, like relics, except gun/bow, which can proc on all shots of multi-shot.
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Thank you for the replay, so not all first swing will be triple damage. so what is cosidered first swing? like weapon off then engage hit? or after weapons skill ?
Gun bow are different league then the the rest regarding white hits.
Gun bow are different league then the the rest regarding white hits.
First attack of an attack round (not possible on double, triple, quad, follow-up attack, whatever). If you get insanely lucky it could be the first attack of every round, but on average it will be roughly the percentages above (of each round).
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Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Dubaiii said: »
So the question is what is the rate of the double/triple damage ? or is it only on first swing? and is it true there it proc more when it higher stages than stage 3 and by how much?
AFAIK:
Stage 3: no double/triple proc
Stage 4: ~15% chance to double proc
Stage 5: ~30% chance to triple proc
First swing only, like relics, except gun/bow, which can proc on all shots of multi-shot.
Tested on Stage 4 polearm using DA- gear to push multi hit down to only 2%(No wyvern to avoid gift DA) so extra hits where the ODD can't proc couldn't mess with the proc rate. Sample size was around 3k hits after removing DA procs. Came out to 32.23% rate. Due to some imperfections in the sample gathering, I can't say with complete confidence if it's 30% or 33%, but I can very solidly state that it's not ~15%.
EDIT: Come to think of it... has any difference in proc rate or damage multplier been found between one handed and 2 handed Prime weps? Relics had all kinds of differences for the hidden ODx effect. But I feel like they went for a more consistent system for primes.
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »
Dubaiii said: »
So the question is what is the rate of the double/triple damage ? or is it only on first swing? and is it true there it proc more when it higher stages than stage 3 and by how much?
AFAIK:
Stage 3: no double/triple proc
Stage 4: ~15% chance to double proc
Stage 5: ~30% chance to triple proc
First swing only, like relics, except gun/bow, which can proc on all shots of multi-shot.
Tested on Stage 4 polearm using DA- gear to push multi hit down to only 2%(No wyvern to avoid gift DA) so extra hits where the ODD can't proc couldn't mess with the proc rate. Sample size was around 3k hits after removing DA procs. Came out to 32.23% rate. Due to some imperfections in the sample gathering, I can't say with complete confidence if it's 30% or 33%, but I can very solidly state that it's not ~15%.
EDIT: Come to think of it... has any difference in proc rate or damage multplier been found between one handed and 2 handed Prime weps? Relics had all kinds of differences for the hidden ODx effect. But I feel like they went for a more consistent system for primes.
Thanks for correcting and thanks for doing the testing. I don't have a melee weapon at stage 4 or 5 so I can't really provide much other than what others have said.
I could test the gun but haven't taken the time to do so. It's also kind of arduous to do vanilla since it would involve recording the data manually which is obnoxious.
Would be interesting to see more discussion about the ODD/ODT, testing, and updates to the weapon pages especially.
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Impressive numbers on the JINPU/KAGERO spam. I'll need to try incorporating those to our 8-boss melee runs. And with that, I'm looking for some advice on what we can do to increase kill speed, specifically E boss which we're currently just letting SAM be solo DD 4-step with Doji. Our WHM has Yagrush now so we feel the poisona spam will allow more DD to engage E boss. Here's our setup/WS allocation. We do the standard Distract III (stymie F/H), Dia III, Box Step x1-2, Light Shot, Ageha, Inundation. Route: F(2hrs)>G>C>B>Botulus>E>A>D>H(2hrs)
RDM_______BRD_______COR_______WAR_______SAM
Stg3 Dag__Stg4 Inst__Stg3 Gun____Stg4 GS____Stg3 GKT
E: _____________________________________4-step Doji
F: BH______Rudra______Evis______Fimb______Mumei
G: BH______Savage____Terminus__Upheav____Fudo
H: BH______Savage____Terminus__Fimb______Mumei
I'm quite happy with our kill speeds (especially F/H now, 35-40 sec max), but if we could shave a few seconds off (E boss), we could open up the door to trying Aminon (although it would be a different setup I guess).
RDM_______BRD_______COR_______WAR_______SAM
Stg3 Dag__Stg4 Inst__Stg3 Gun____Stg4 GS____Stg3 GKT
E: _____________________________________4-step Doji
F: BH______Rudra______Evis______Fimb______Mumei
G: BH______Savage____Terminus__Upheav____Fudo
H: BH______Savage____Terminus__Fimb______Mumei
I'm quite happy with our kill speeds (especially F/H now, 35-40 sec max), but if we could shave a few seconds off (E boss), we could open up the door to trying Aminon (although it would be a different setup I guess).
Out of all the primes people are talking crap about katana doesn't deserve it.. I find it to be one of the best primes. It just depends if u compare to to the options the jobs already have.
The TP Speed is nuts it SCs with itself and makes light with savage. It honestly feels like if aeonic actually hit hard. Using Mpaca head + moonshade + tp bonus offhand is pretty required for it but it makes it just pump dmg.
The TP Speed is nuts it SCs with itself and makes light with savage. It honestly feels like if aeonic actually hit hard. Using Mpaca head + moonshade + tp bonus offhand is pretty required for it but it makes it just pump dmg.
Can WAR swap to DNC? Our 8/8 runs are way faster now with DNC and SAM rather than WAR/DRK or WAR/SAM.
With that said you can do Upheaval and Jinpu on A/E. Savage and BH spam as well.
We also save second SV songs for E and carry them over to F.
Enter SV at D or can do at H with the rest of the SPs and cut the BRD. Try to pull H at 48min at the latest. Split for ABC KIs, ABC bosses. G boss, E Bot. SV again at E then do F.
We do this with PUG players a static could start with H or F for better timing of SPs. E dies so fast we don’t need Bot but we are typically waiting for Naak to pop so might as well.
With that said you can do Upheaval and Jinpu on A/E. Savage and BH spam as well.
We also save second SV songs for E and carry them over to F.
Enter SV at D or can do at H with the rest of the SPs and cut the BRD. Try to pull H at 48min at the latest. Split for ABC KIs, ABC bosses. G boss, E Bot. SV again at E then do F.
We do this with PUG players a static could start with H or F for better timing of SPs. E dies so fast we don’t need Bot but we are typically waiting for Naak to pop so might as well.
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Could have the WAR switch to RDM and the RDM switch to DNC since he has the stage 3 dagger and literally hasn't used it yet. If I do that, what are your WSes per boss then, specifically DNC?
For E:
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
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Dodik said: »
For E:
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
Alternatively:
WAR: Impulse
BRD: Savage
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Dodik said: »
For E:
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
War: Savage
Cor: Savage
Sam: Ageha at start then jinpu with wind threnody
Brd: box step and look pretty. No WS.
Rdm: Black halo.
Sam TP gain is fast enough the two savages won't wall each other. Sam might with back to back jinpus.
Savage does a lot more dmg than upheaval.
OK A/E Jinpu what about the rest C you can fudo for sure but B D FG?
Asura.Thunderjet said: »
i use seraph blades on E, seems to be better than Halo, i dunno why? but halo for jester fights i dunno
Are you getting MAB buffs somehow? I have doubts, in a physical buff setup, that Black Halo will under perform Seraph Blade. I would also recommend checking your Black Halo WS set.
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Our rdm tried seraph blade on E and black halo does a lot more with melee buffs.
On G I use Koki with prime GK. He is weak to light, even without threnody prime GK hits for 99s. Kagero with fire threnody is an option.
F/H Mumei.
On G I use Koki with prime GK. He is weak to light, even without threnody prime GK hits for 99s. Kagero with fire threnody is an option.
F/H Mumei.
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