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What makes a {Veteran} vs {Amateur} player?
 Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-23 23:47:31
I completely agree which is why I said previously that knowing STP and Acc values are not a gauge of player skill. Its more like FFXI-201.
Amateur: "The pointy end is for stabbing, not holding right? Which is the pointy end anyways?"
Novice: "Stab with sword, block with shield. I know!!!"
Noob: "I know what I am doing!!!" *charge*
Experienced: *stab* *swab gear* *block* "[Light] --- [Weapon Skill] >>> [Weapon Skill] in 3 [ping] ---"
Veteran: "Back in my day, we used to call that Buttersheep!"
Expert: "You need XX Store TP for X-Hit then XXXX Acc to cap hit rate"
you forgot the filthy casual and weekend warrior groups
Credit Card warriors probably fit in there somewhere as well.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-01-23 23:49:21
The players that know how to find such values and come up with strategies to defeat new content are literally just a handful and are in a category well beyond what the general player base would consider 'veteran'.
Finding accuracy and Store TP is piss easy. It's a matter of /checkparam and knowing the Store Formula.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Tactical_Points
Take something like a Ragnarok, 431 delay is 122 base TP for each swing. 5-hit is 200 per swing so basic grade school math, 200/122 = 1.639, round up to 1.64 or 64% extra TP per swing, aka 64 Store TP. You can get more elaborate with WS return and such but that's the basic way to do it.
Accuracy is just /checkparam vs content level's with a ballpark knowledge. The guys on the Apex Camp thread have already nailed down ballpark evasion numbers for various content levels. I knowledgeable player would know how and where to look those up.
Meh, its even simpler than that. Just plug in your information on this Store TP Calculator and you literally have your value.
It could be off because it hasn't been updated since 2012, but it certainly gives a great ballpark which has worked for me.
Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-23 23:55:47
For newer players I've always directed them to FFXI Calculator. They will not only be able to calculate x-hits but also accuracy and skillchains to a reasonable extent. For mage jobs the statistics tab also has a section for cure potency and phalanx.
By Calinar 2017-01-24 00:00:33
Even as a player for entire NA release, I still can't tell you if 2 random weaponskills will skillchain without *** using ffxicalc.
It's a really useful tool.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 80
By Asura.Bloodlusty 2017-01-24 00:03:45
There's people like Bloodlusty too, always showing DRK is still relevant no matter how many people say it isn't. Basically, to me, the people with passion who break all the supposed rules to achieve their dreams of doing things on the jobs they love to play is something I look up to. Here is a video of someone using autoRA:
Thought I was doing well for a second there lol :)
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 00:10:32
You definitely did do well, it died after all! It's undeniable however that without it you would have done even better (even tho it probably only would have shortened the fight by less than a minute.)
 Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9728
By Asura.Saevel 2017-01-24 00:12:34
Meh, its even simpler than that. Just plug in your information on this Store TP Calculator and you literally have your value.
It could be off because it hasn't been updated since 2012, but it certainly gives a great ballpark which has worked for me.
No, just use the damn formula on Wiki and your calculator application on your PC. Using an outdated incorrect online calculator because your too lazy to do it yourself is the very definition of "amateur". I just outlined how easy it was to figure out, find your weapon of choice on the wiki, and it's base TP value should be listed (most are already updated). If it's not then use the formula on the wiki for the delay to find it's base value. Then just run the numbers real quick to determine your needed Store TP and go from there.
This ***is on a "I'm too lazy to mess with macros their just too complicated and I don't need them, I'm good enough as is".
So far as I can tell there has been no updated calculator since the last round of changes, which were pretty damn significant.
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 00:17:27
FFXICalc was updated in 2016. After pointing someone to the tool they replied back with values being off. A simple email to the creator fixed all that. There are also spreadsheets that while even more complicated than a tool, will still give you correct values.
That said, FFXI math has never been hard and no one should be using outdated sources while saying its "good enough". It's the opposite of what a 'veteran player' would say.
In fact, I see a correlation between such comments and the need to shout for 'veterans'.
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 00:27:21
I would also like to add that anyone that would truly consider themselves knowledgeable of the workings of FFXI would already know who the ***vs good players are on one's current server, thereby negating the need to shout for vet players. You filter out the crap as you get replies. On the other hand though, if its ambuscade and you have room to carry a noobish geo or something, for *** sake invite them they could obviously use the gear. Hell, to any nub player on Bismarck that could really use the help (by help I mean not be carried on your favorite DPS job) I'm willing to participate on almost anything as long as a schedule is setup ahead of time.
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Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9728
By Asura.Saevel 2017-01-24 00:47:10
Veteran = player who actively attempts to be good at whatever their doing, puts in lots of time and effort to optimize gear-sets for the content they are doing. Is constantly fine tuning their sets to eek out that last bit of performance.
Amateur = player who just "does enough to get by", won't put in the extra effort to craft utility and specialized sets, won't fine tune and just does bare minimum to be accepted into stuff.
Groups tend to form around a core of Veteran players who then bring along some Amateur friends to round them out.
Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 00:51:15
Casual player = player that has been playing for a significant amount of time but for whatever reason decides to stay on the amateur side of the player equation. Tends to pull the "RL/This isn't a job" card whenever they are called out for not being able to do the bare minimum.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2007
By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2017-01-24 02:38:08
After reading this thread, I don't think the term "veteran" is really meaningful in this context. I imagine most people use it because it's in Auto-Translate, but "veteran" has some connotation that is not required (or even useful) in the context of endgame events.
Normally I would chalk this up as useless semantics, but others in the thread are bringing up things like length/breadth of play, so I think some things are being conflated.
IMO, the meaningful question isn't "what separates a veteran from an amateur player?" but rather "what does it take for a player to be competent at a job?" I think the OP is looking for some criteria which define the minimum level of readiness for a given event on a given job.
It's tough to come up with a single set of qualifications per job per event, given the diversity of roles in this game, but one trait I think stands out regardless of context is "awareness." Awareness of the meta, awareness of the player's role, awareness of the events they enter, awareness of the self (what is lacking, what affordances they provide). Awareness is something that comes with experience and research.
An aware, well-geared player will be able to handle the tasks required in a given setting. They possess the knowledge and the means to perform their jobs.
An aware, poorly geared player will likely not attempt to participate in an event, or at least will disclose this information to the party leaders.
An unaware, well-geared player will have some mathematical advantage over poorly-geared players, but will fail in terms of communication, teamwork, and understanding, which will harm the party as a whole.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: The issue here is that something like "awareness" cannot be measured as easily as looking at gear, so it isn't a totally useful measure for party leaders to filter out unskilled players. You can approximate this kind of measurement based on looking at gear choices and through asking questions.
 Lakshmi.Lenus
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 517
By Lakshmi.Lenus 2017-01-24 02:46:32
Veteran's are people with aeonics, cause they've beaten the hardest content in the game.. .
I mean people who don't turn when pain sync is readying up
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 02:50:43
Veteran's are people with aeonics that suckered someone else into dual boxing their clears, cause they've beaten the hardest content in the game...
Fixed!
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 02:55:23
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »The issue here is that something like "awareness" cannot be measured as easily as looking at gear
Player awareness is easily measured by player reputation. There's a huge world of difference between (hate using names) say a high tier SAM like Llewelyn and the dumb ***that was Nabis and his 3 hit Nanatsusayanotachi. Awareness can also be measured by how long it takes someone to perform an action or even just reply to a question in /tell or /party. If it takes 5 min for something to be answered its a good gauge that you are in ***player territory.
With the current content that is available today, for most low/mid-game players your reputation will come from your participation in PUG shouts, namely Ambuscade. Perform like crap there, chances are you aren't going to be joining any Omen shouts.
 Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9893
By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-24 03:14:19
Meh, its even simpler than that. Just plug in your information on this Store TP Calculator and you literally have your value. OMG who's this Robert Heck? I love that! Are there other calculators on his site?
I always used to do the TP calculation on my own using the wiki formulas but that's so boring! I love this! :D
Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 03:20:48
Meh, its even simpler than that. Just plug in your information on this Store TP Calculator and you literally have your value.
Are there other calculators on his site?
Yes they are all here, however I'm sure they are severely outdated (aka useless) compared to other options. In all seriousness however, no one should be using anything that outdated, especially with the changes to Store TP.
By Afania 2017-01-24 03:21:50
The massive amount of generalization in this discussion is fun to read lol.
When I see "veteran" almost every time it means "I'm being lazy i need 5 people to carry me" or "I'm terrible but I think I'm a veteran, so I shout for veterans even though I dont even change gear"
I like the term "veteran" when recruiting because it saves a lot of headache of having to communicate gear requirements. If someone that just came back and don't have good gears, they usually would avoid replying /shout with "veteran" due to the lack of confidence, and those who replied to shout usually* have much higher confidence to get things done. So it's basally just lazy way of filtering.
I personally don't see correlation between wanting to get carried and put Veteran in shout.
Casual player = player that has been playing for a significant amount of time but for whatever reason decides to stay on the amateur side of the player equation. Tends to pull the "RL/This isn't a job" card whenever they are called out for not being able to do the bare minimum.
I consider myself pretty casual, some of my jobs has less than 20 pieces of gears even. That being said I've never use "RL/This isn't a job". IMO you either work in a pt/group, or you don't. If I don't work in a group then I just leave and look for new ones.
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »The issue here is that something like "awareness" cannot be measured as easily as looking at gear
Player awareness is easily measured by player reputation. There's a huge world of difference between (hate using names) say a high tier SAM like Llewelyn and the dumb ***that was Nabis and his 3 hit Nanatsusayanotachi.
I don't see how player reputation has anything to do with awareness/reaction speed/knowledge either. From my experience, players gain reputation by:
1) post on forums, or have youtube channel or something.
2) plays a dps job and constantly brag about their parses, and this kind of performance difference is way easier to notice than others.
3) Lead a successful endgame LS or group.
4) Often talk about their jobs with others, which shows knowledge(?) I think.
Someone with strong awareness but don't do any of 1) to 4) won't have much rep, and vice versa. Certain jobs are much harder to gain strong reputation especially if the job isn't DD. personally i find it near impossible to tell whether someone is good or not unless I've seen their entire GS scripts/rules, and played with that person for a very long time. But if that player plays dps job, then it's MUCH easier to tell with parses. If you don't have parse though, it's still hard to tell.
Tl;dr, reputation is 70% talk, 30% actual performance. But that's life, people that's better at talking about their accomplishments often have better life.
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 03:43:02
I could care less if someone has a youtube channel, there are plenty of videos showing nothing but players revisiting FFXI after quitting X amount of years/months. There's only a very small handful of players creating strat videos. Same goes for forum posts, there are plenty of players with over 10k posts, does that mean they are top tier players?
Parses also mean absolutely nothing to me as there are many factors as to why X player performed better than Y or Z player assuming all had equal skill and gear.
I don't see how player reputation has anything to do with awareness/reaction speed/knowledge either
Player reputation is directly tied into how well your perform in whatever said content a player decided to participate in. WS slowly, die repeatedly as a tank, fail to keep buffs/debuffs on, all these things directly affect how others see your skill. Do any of these things poorly and you suddenly have a ***player rep. I don't remember seeing any shouts for ***players, ever.
I'm not from Ragnarok and I've never had the pleasure of playing with you, but given the comments from various other players on this forum I can easily come to the conclusion that your rep is being one of the few non-***casual/vanilla players. (I wouldn't even label you as casual.) If I was shouting for something, I'd take you over a ***gearswap ffxiah copy-pasta dps. Why? Based on player rep.
Player rep is 100% based on talk from other players, which is 100% based on player performance.
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Asura.Sechs
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9893
By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-24 03:48:42
Player rep is 100% based on talk from other players, which is 100% based on player performance. Nope.
I mean a large part of it? Very likely, but 100% sounds like an exxageration.
Yes they are all here, however I'm sure they are severely outdated (aka useless) compared to other options. In all seriousness however, no one should be using anything that outdated, especially with the changes to Store TP. Remind me, what has changed in STP calculations recently? I forgot there had been any major updates to STP calculations post Adoulin
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Bismarck.Phaded
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
By Bismarck.Phaded 2017-01-24 03:55:11
You gain more TP per hit now than you did previously. The June 2014 patch wasn't just adding a 0 at the end.
Instead of adding stupid ***like mounts and master trials I would rather SE back port the above. Especially #6. FFXI's party finder has been due for an overhaul since 2004.
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Bismarck.Snprphnx
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2691
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2017-01-24 06:18:08
Player rep can also be heavily tied to their ah.com/bg.com rep. We all know of a few people who, no matter how good they are as a person, if they continually ask stupid questions online, that stigma will follow them into FFXI
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 Cerberus.Tidis
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3927
By Cerberus.Tidis 2017-01-24 06:49:35
I do like working out things like "How much sTP do I need for an X-hit?" "How much DW do I need in these varying situations to cap delay reduction, if I can even do so".
I dunno what type of player that makes me though.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-01-24 07:28:38
I do like working out things like "How much sTP do I need for an X-hit?" "How much DW do I need in these varying situations to cap delay reduction, if I can even do so".
I dunno what type of player that makes me though.
A nerd.
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Bismarck.Snprphnx
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2691
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2017-01-24 07:31:44
I feel like we need more categories other than Veteran vs Amateur. More like:
Newb : someone absolutely new to the game
Newb : someone who plays like they are brand new, even though they may have been playing for a long time. Often times lacking general knowledge, or retaining basic strategies from previous fights, no matter how often they have done them.
Rookie : someone relatively new, but has a general understanding of basics, like JAs, spells, major zones/regions, and beastiary.
Amateur : someone who knows enough to fake being knowledgeable, but not enough to actually be successful, without hands on guidance.
Casual : someone who knows how to play, most of the game mechanics, but plays rarely, due to real life commitments, sometimes using that as an excuse as to why their gear is lacking or for a failure.
Journeyman : someone who has played the game for years, and experienced the vast majority of the content it has to offer.
Veteran : someone who not only has a vast knowledge of the game and its mechanics, knowing the ins and outs of most jobs, and can successfully use that knowledge to lead a group of others in new content.
Elitist : someone who knows what to do, but often times criticizes those who don't.
Just my opinion.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2666
By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-01-24 07:33:43
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »Noob : someone absolutely new to the game
If you want to get old school, this would be spelled "newb". A "newbie" is an "endearing" term describing someone brand new to a game. A "noob" is more of a derogatory term of someone who plays like they're new to the game, regardless of whether they are in fact new or not.
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Asura.Saevel
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9728
By Asura.Saevel 2017-01-24 07:38:03
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »It's tough to come up with a single set of qualifications per job per event, given the diversity of roles in this game, but one trait I think stands out regardless of context is "awareness." Awareness of the meta, awareness of the player's role, awareness of the events they enter, awareness of the self (what is lacking, what affordances they provide). Awareness is something that comes with experience and research.
What your talking about is the military concept of Situational Awareness and is a part of the OODA loop.
Observe
Orientate
Decide
Act
It's used religiously at high strategic levels but also at the lowest level in combat. The speed of someone's OODA loop is a large determiner of their success in situations where reaction time is critical (aka games and combat).
Situational Awareness is the ability to accept large amounts of incoming data and synthesis it into something usable in the immediate future for making decisions.
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Bismarck.Snprphnx
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2691
By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2017-01-24 07:42:53
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »Noob : someone absolutely new to the game
If you want to get old school, this would be spelled "newb". A "newbie" is an "endearing" term describing someone brand new to a game. A "noob" is more of a derogatory term of someone who plays like they're new to the game, regardless of whether they are in fact new or not.
Edited, for Noob/Newb differential
By Numquam 2017-01-24 08:08:59
The quicker something dies, the better you are at this game.
Ragnarok.Graspee
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 13
By Ragnarok.Graspee 2017-01-24 08:30:26
Surely the quality of their decision in the D part of that OODA loop (/rolleyes at some people's love of acronyms) is of great importance? It's no good zipping about making fast decisions on the battlefield if they are like "throw sandwich at fafnir", "tell linkshell about how funny the dragon looks eating my friends in this bcnm" or "run in circles because it's soothing and I'm on fire".
Seems to me that a good number of players don't know exactly what makes a "Veteran" player. Normally in shout groups, you'll see someone asking for "SMN {Veteran} PLD {Veteran}". I happen to shout fairly regularly for various groups, and I use the term often.
However, from time to time, when I push back and ask if they are a veteran at their job, sometimes they reply "define veteran". Some people don't really know what makes a veteran player vs an average player, and was wondering what the community's general consensus and benchmark for being considered "Veteran". Because while there is clearly an acceptable standard of what is expected of a player when they join an event, there are also (at times) an unrealistic benchmark that give players a bad vibe as to what they are expected to have before joining something (Ever see a shout for something like Leviathan VD or SR asking for a REMA BLU ?)
Here's my list of what I would and would not consider criteria for being a Veteran:
A {Veteran} {Job} must:
• Have to be able to follow a strategy. This may include skillchains, magic bursts, and other things.
• Have invested a good amount of time into the job. Simply being lvl99 and geared is not enough anymore.
• Understand when to use JAs/Spells and how they affect monsters/party. You cannot be a WAR and not understand why you need to merit Savagery (Warcry). Unacceptable.
• Must possess all WS/JAs and spells that are expected at any level of play, including seemingly useless ones, unless they are extremely impractical in nearly every scenario (This may be debatable depending on what job you play. WAR probably doesn't need to unlock Stardiver, for instance); i.e. COR should have every roll, no exceptions. You do need to buy spells like Frazzle 1 and Flurry 1, even if you have the lvl2 version on your RDM main.
• All Support jobs unlocked for your main. This includes /sch for mage, /sam, /drk, /run for DD, and /blu for tanks.
• Possess a DT50% build, or very very close to it. No exceptions, mage, tank, or melee.
• [If you're a DD] Possess the requisite amount of accuracy for the content. If you're a mage, you will need magic accuracy for the content.
• [If you're a DD] Have advanced job knowledge and monster mechanics. You cannot just spam CDC all day. You'll need to visit forums and websites to learn some things. You'll also need to know what you're fighting before we fight it. Do a small bit of research.
• [If you're a DD] Have "sets" for different situations, and the appropriate gear that augment special abilities, like Diffusion and Angon. This is very important as it adds some pretty potent boons from just having it equipped on activation. (It drives me crazy when I see 3~minute diffusion MG from BLUs)
• If you're a tank, you may need an REMA, or maybe not...at the very least a combination of good play, good gear, and great sets (including enmity, damage taken, healing, and occasional DD) to be worth inviting.
• If you're a mage, must have all skill levels unlocked/maxed.
Maxed Potency which is reasonably attainable through time and gear (for instance, 900 skill GEO, High lvl Bar spell WHM or max Curna set for WHM)
• [If on job that uses MP] Possess a FC set. It's no longer acceptable to take 4 full seconds to cast stoneskin.
• You need to bring meds, regardless of your job. This includes RR, Vile+1 if needed, silent oils if needed, remedy/holy water/panacea/echo drops at the very least. This is probably debatable, but it makes the difference sometimes.
A {Veteran} {Job} does not need:
• Master JP. Master is not required, but certainly helps your argument, as it means you've spent time on your job and you're more likely to understand it.
• a REMA, though it certainly doesn't hurt and may make you more attractive in content.
• HQ abjurations or the like. You could be an above average geared player and perform well. But gear does make a ton of a difference, so it doesn't hurt to have "good gear".
• To have cleared said content previously, but it helps to have some knowledge of the NM and its tricks.
• To be the best of the best, elitist by some people's terms.
Discuss how you would define a Veteran Player. I hope this thread can actually educate some people who may have been unfamiliar with what the term specifically meant, because I have noticed it has different meanings depending on who you ask. Its good to get the answer out in the open.
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