Ninja Equipment Sets (April 2015)
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Ninja Equipment Sets (April 2015)
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 Leviathan.Vow
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By Leviathan.Vow 2015-04-22 23:39:07
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Pantafernando said: »
No haste magic: dw38
Haste samba: dw34
Haste1: dw32
Haste2: dw21
Cappedmagichaste: 0

The value for 'Cappedmagichaste' should be 1.

I generated these lists using the n/1024 values from BGwiki before making stuff for Ninja:
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
The format is probably going to get messed up, because I don't know how to forum~

Kaerin said: »
I think you missed the most important thing here Vow;

inkydo said: »
and no i don't do math so dumb it down please lol

He'll come around!

You can see the relation without taking a derivative if that's preferable.

dps = cA/R

Increase accuracy and reduce delay by an arbitrary amount, a.

dps_a = c(A+a)/R (increasing accuracy)
dps_r = cA/(R-a) (decreasing delay)

dps_a/dps (relative increase in dps as accuracy increases) =
c(A+a)/R / cA/R
= A+a / A
= 1 + a/A

dps_r/dps =
cA/(R-a) / cA/R
= R / R-a
= R+0 / R-a
= R+(a-a) / R-a
= R-a+a / R-a
= R-a/R-a + a/R-a
= 1 + a/R-a

Increasing accuracy by some amount will increase dps by a greater amount than decreasing delay by that same amount if:

A < R-a, where a is the arbitrary amount.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2015-04-23 01:19:49
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Kaerin said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »

At capped haste (or whenever you don't want a DW body) Hattori+1 > Thaumas, and I didn't expect this.

TA2 DA2 Qaaxo harness when you don't need more ACC or DW!
Nope.
If we factor Accuracy out (Qaaxo gives slightly more acc than Thaumas) Qaaxo is never better than Thaumas from a pure damage point of view, so of course it's not better than Hattori+1 either.

Granted that the difference is not huge, but still...
 Kaerin
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By Kaerin 2015-04-23 03:03:35
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Kaerin said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »

At capped haste (or whenever you don't want a DW body) Hattori+1 > Thaumas, and I didn't expect this.

TA2 DA2 Qaaxo harness when you don't need more ACC or DW!
Nope.
If we factor Accuracy out (Qaaxo gives slightly more acc than Thaumas) Qaaxo is never better than Thaumas from a pure damage point of view, so of course it's not better than Hattori+1 either.

Granted that the difference is not huge, but still...

I refuse to acknowledge not-ilvl gear exists. Thaumas is crap.

Now excuse me while I go close my eyes and hold my hands over my ears and scream LALALALALALALALA as you try and say anything back to me.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2015-04-23 04:00:57
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I kinda have the same approach with non-ilevel gear, I allowed only very few exceptions so far, and Thaumas body is one of those.
When you can make use of it, the damage difference is so large I couldn't justify my approach of "no ilevel gear".
I couldn't even use my typical "but it costs gil!" excuse, because it was absolutely free and I already own it =/

In this sense I'm glad about Hattori+1, it means byebye Thaumas at least for Ninja :D
 Odin.Nogara
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By Odin.Nogara 2015-04-23 20:17:14
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Just returned to the game after a 2 year hiatus a few weeks ago. I've decided to start gearing Nin now, in the past most of my jobs have been 2H, so coming into 1H weapon is a little different when putting together my gear sets based on Haste etc... that and I've been gone a couple years, so a lot of it I'm still rusty on.

My questions specifically revolve around delay caps, haste etc..

I understand that 80% is the total delay cap one can obtain, further more broken down into categories like such.
Gear=25%
Magic = 43.75%
JA = 25%

In these categories everything is calculated as a reduction of x/1024 to my understanding.

Now what's throwing me off is DW. Is DW not calculated as an x/1024? So it doesn't fit into either of the categories listed above?

If it works differently, is their a simple formula which I can use to figure out how much DW I would need to hit my cap?

Ex. Going by x/1024 to reach the delay cap of 80% you would need 820/1024 of haste via JA/Gear/Magic.

So if I was sitting at 600/1024 would there be a formula I could use that would tell me how much DW I would need to hit the cap?

Also, since Nin has a trait DW V which is 35%, basically what does that mean Nin starts out with in reducing the cap before even applying haste of any sort?

Because I want to say if DW V is 35% reduction, then it should be represented as 350/1024, but I know that wouldn't be true.

Any help in understanding is appreciated!
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-23 21:05:44
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Odin.Nogara said: »
Just returned to the game after a 2 year hiatus a few weeks ago. I've decided to start gearing Nin now, in the past most of my jobs have been 2H, so coming into 1H weapon is a little different when putting together my gear sets based on Haste etc... that and I've been gone a couple years, so a lot of it I'm still rusty on.

My questions specifically revolve around delay caps, haste etc..

I understand that 80% is the total delay cap one can obtain, further more broken down into categories like such.
Gear=25%
Magic = 43.75%
JA = 25%

In these categories everything is calculated as a reduction of x/1024 to my understanding.

Now what's throwing me off is DW. Is DW not calculated as an x/1024? So it doesn't fit into either of the categories listed above?

If it works differently, is their a simple formula which I can use to figure out how much DW I would need to hit my cap?

Ex. Going by x/1024 to reach the delay cap of 80% you would need 820/1024 of haste via JA/Gear/Magic.

So if I was sitting at 600/1024 would there be a formula I could use that would tell me how much DW I would need to hit the cap?

Also, since Nin has a trait DW V which is 35%, basically what does that mean Nin starts out with in reducing the cap before even applying haste of any sort?

Because I want to say if DW V is 35% reduction, then it should be represented as 350/1024, but I know that wouldn't be true.

Any help in understanding is appreciated!

Not sure about the math involved, but most of us in the forum community have agreed that too much DW can actually decrease DPS (Due to its nature of lowering TP per hit).
 Kaerin
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By Kaerin 2015-04-23 21:14:03
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Odin.Nogara said: »
Now what's throwing me off is DW. Is DW not calculated as an x/1024? So it doesn't fit into either of the categories listed above?

Dual wield is not calculated as xxx/1024.
I tested this personally like... 4 or 5 years ago and proved it, I'll search my bg history for a minute and see if I can find it and come back and link it if I do. If not feel free to search my name there (Kamugi)

EDIT; ya, cant find it, good luck with that
http://www.bluegartr.com/search.php?searchid=2700414
 Odin.Nogara
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By Odin.Nogara 2015-04-23 22:04:35
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Cerberus.Kaeviathan said: »
Not sure about the math involved, but most of us in the forum community have agreed that too much DW can actually decrease DPS (Due to its nature of lowering TP per hit).

What's the consensus max limit to DW then?

When building my sets, starting with a set which would have zero buffs, what is the most DW you would allow in gear that would not be advised to go over?

Because in a completely unbuffed situation, you could hit the delay cap with 26% gear haste and +38 DW equipment to go with the +35 from job trait if I'm doing the math right.
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-23 22:08:54
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Its very rare nowadays to go out do things without Bard songs and Haste, EVEN WHEN SOLOING! The maximum I might recommend would probably be 4~5% DW.

EDIT:
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Trust

It might be likely that you don't know of trust npc's, so I suggest in looking info about this, especially the following NPCS:

  • Joachim

  • Ulmia

  • Koru-Moru

 Kaerin
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By Kaerin 2015-04-23 22:41:41
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Odin.Nogara said: »
Because in a completely unbuffed situation, you could hit the delay cap with 26% gear haste and +38 DW equipment to go with the +35 from job trait if I'm doing the math right.

If you can cap delay reduction, its pretty much always best to cap it, unless your hit rate is crap.

The max limit on how much DW you want is whatever makes you hit 80% total delay reduction. Also this;
Leviathan.Vow said: »
Pantafernando said: »
No haste magic: dw38
Haste samba: dw34
Haste1: dw32
Haste2: dw21
Cappedmagichaste: 0

The value for 'Cappedmagichaste' should be 1.

Which I assume is right because only 1 thing was corrected.
 Odin.Nogara
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By Odin.Nogara 2015-04-23 22:48:20
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I know of trusts, but for the sake of my lua I would create a set in which to use with no buffs applied, regardless of how rare it may get used, like today when I was solo Nin/War in Aby for procs.

So Suppa is the only piece of DW equipment you would ever have in a gear set of yours?

Or is their some math to point out the point of diminishing returns for DW? Because equipping only Suppa leaves you 25% short of the delay cap unbuffed, which to me I would think anyways that you would still see good returns on more DW than just Suppa.

Edit: Just seen your post Kaerin, and it completely conflicts with Kaevs!
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-23 22:58:58
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DW is not my area of expertise ><.
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-24 00:06:59
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*The following data targets Tojil.*

No Haste/Songs:Dual Wield 76%
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Haste: Dual Wield 68%

  • Mochi. Hakama+1 ---> Taeon Tights


Haste & Victory March: Dual Wield 56%
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

Haste & March X2: Dual Wield 39%
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Cerberus.Reiden
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By Cerberus.Reiden 2015-04-24 00:09:37
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kaeviathan i dont see you online >.>
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-24 00:18:08
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Cerberus.Reiden said: »
kaeviathan i dont see you online >.>

3 more CPA exams to go ><
 Shiva.Verohawke
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By Shiva.Verohawke 2015-04-24 07:24:05
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Anyone already tested the Hattori Zuki+1?

Is the 9% DA active when Innin is up no matter in what position you are facing the mob or only when innin is up AND you're directly behind the mob?
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-24 08:13:36
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Shiva.Verohawke said: »
Anyone already tested the Hattori Zuki+1?

Is the 9% DA active when Innin is up no matter in what position you are facing the mob or only when innin is up AND you're directly behind the mob?

Looks like you need to be behind the mob.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/26764/hattori-zukin
 Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
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By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2015-04-24 09:21:21
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Odin.Nogara said: »
I know of trusts, but for the sake of my lua I would create a set in which to use with no buffs applied, regardless of how rare it may get used, like today when I was solo Nin/War in Aby for procs.

So Suppa is the only piece of DW equipment you would ever have in a gear set of yours?

Or is their some math to point out the point of diminishing returns for DW? Because equipping only Suppa leaves you 25% short of the delay cap unbuffed, which to me I would think anyways that you would still see good returns on more DW than just Suppa.

Edit: Just seen your post Kaerin, and it completely conflicts with Kaevs!

I would setup your lua to switch sets at 4 intervals. 0%/15%/30%/Max Magical Haste. It's common to fall into these 4 groups, even during end game events. i.e. You will get slowed repeatedly, not get both marches, not get hasted, get haste dispelled, or get haste I instead of II.

You can use my sets as a basis if you want to know the appropriate DW levels.

If anyone is trying to figure out how much DW they need, it's pretty easy. Use the DPS sheets! Otherwise, If you're masochistic, I'll regurgitate how the DPS sheet handles it. (using Kannagi + Achiuchikapu with 30% magical haste, 21% DW from gear)

First, find your Minimum Delay. With these katanas, that is: (main delay + off delay * 0.2) or 210 + 180 * 0.2 = 78. Now we know 78 is our minimum delay, and anything that goes below it isn't lowering our delay any further.

Now we need to find our Round Delay. This is floor((210+180)*(1 - DW%)) DW is 35% from job trait, 21% from gear, so 56% total. floor((210+180)*(1 - 0.56)) = 171

Finally, the value you're after is the Nominal Delay, which is: (Round Delay * (1 - Haste%))
25% Haste from gear, and 30% haste from spells, so 55% total haste.
(171 * (1 - 0.55)) = 77

You can see, 21% DW in gear with 30% magical 25% gear haste yields us 77 nominal delay, which is 1 less than the cap of 78. You can run the calculation again with 20% DW from gear.

round: floor((210+180) * (1 - 0.55)) = 175
nom: (175 * (1 - 0.55)) = 78.8
78.8 > 78, so 20% DW is not capping our delay, even though it's very slight.

You always want to be either directly at Min Delay, or a little less. Anything over it isn't capping delay, so DPS is lost at a greater rate.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2015-04-24 09:48:39
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Cerberus.Kaeviathan said: »
Shiva.Verohawke said: »
Anyone already tested the Hattori Zuki+1?

Is the 9% DA active when Innin is up no matter in what position you are facing the mob or only when innin is up AND you're directly behind the mob?

Looks like you need to be behind the mob.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/26764/hattori-zukin
Meh... Can anybody test to be 100% sure?

Why you do this to me SE, WHYYYY.
Basically this piece is, almost, only useful when you have no haste.
Because if you're in a situation where you can make use of Innin (party play), 99% of the times you're gonna be magic haste capped.
So silly.


Well, there's hope SE will change how Yonin and Innin work. Removing the overtime degradation and positioning rules.
Which would make the piece much more interesting in return.
 Giaden
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By Giaden 2015-04-24 10:17:31
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Looking for a good DT/Hybrid set, anyone have any good suggestions for it on Nin? Was trying to find a good balance, something that can be full timed on things like Delve NMs. So something around 119-125mobs/nms.

*Edit* Also assuming you have basic buffs. Something like double marches, Cor rolls or possible Geo bubbles. I don't want to be vague, just trying to find a balanced set for those type of things.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2015-04-24 10:20:14
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Otronif+1 with 3-4 MDT and PDT not good enough?
There's also Jushimatsu for some additional DT
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-24 10:41:20
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NIIICE, I learned to use the node and spoilers are working as intended! No longer need to use the "Izuna Set" topic.
 Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
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By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2015-04-24 11:10:05
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Giaden said: »
Looking for a good DT/Hybrid set, anyone have any good suggestions for it on Nin? Was trying to find a good balance, something that can be full timed on things like Delve NMs. So something around 119-125mobs/nms.

*Edit* Also assuming you have basic buffs. Something like double marches, Cor rolls or possible Geo bubbles. I don't want to be vague, just trying to find a balanced set for those type of things.

Something like this.
ItemSet 332655

You could swap around a few pieces. The main goal is PDT + Acc, but this set would fall a little short on something like Tree. I'd probably swap out legs/feet for some taeon with +acc.
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-24 11:15:43
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Quetzalcoatl.Orestes said: »
Giaden said: »
Looking for a good DT/Hybrid set, anyone have any good suggestions for it on Nin? Was trying to find a good balance, something that can be full timed on things like Delve NMs. So something around 119-125mobs/nms.

*Edit* Also assuming you have basic buffs. Something like double marches, Cor rolls or possible Geo bubbles. I don't want to be vague, just trying to find a balanced set for those type of things.

Something like this.
ItemSet 332655

You could swap around a few pieces. The main goal is to maintain a decent hit rate, but this set would fall a little short on something like Tree. I'd probably swap out legs/feet for some taeon with +acc.

I can create a Miscellaneous section to the topic and make a -DT set under it. Also would take the evasion set applied to the melee set and move it to the Miscellaneous sections well. How does that sound?

Can work on it later at night, feel free to post you down -DT sets, evasion sets, and any other sets.
 Giaden
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By Giaden 2015-04-24 11:54:04
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Thank you^^ something I was looking for :D
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-04-24 15:39:32
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Odin.Nogara said: »
Because in a completely unbuffed situation, you could hit the delay cap with 26% gear haste and +38 DW equipment to go with the +35 from job trait if I'm doing the math right.

38.something actually, but yeah, basically 38~39 DW in gear will cap delay reduction with capped gear haste and zero magical or JA haste. Easily obtainable these days with the many DW options from reforged gear, Taeon, and accessories.

/DNC Haste Samba only reduces the amount needed by 2, need DW+37 (actually 36.__) with subjob Samba. Probably not worth even bothering with.

NIN with only haste 1 spell, no marches or JA haste, needs DW+32 in gear to cap.
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-25 01:22:35
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A more detailed melee set related to 0%|15%|30|MAX Haste has been added, but would need to do one for ACC.

Spreadsheet Test was done with Tojil as Target.
 Cerberus.Kaeviathan
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By Cerberus.Kaeviathan 2015-04-25 10:38:50
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Izuna VS Kannagi VS Nagi

Race: Hume
Target: Tojil
Food: Red Curry Bun

Buffs Active:

  • Innin

  • Berserk

  • Aggressor

  • Ionis

  • Haste

  • Songs: March X2 & Minuet V

  • Rolls: Chaos & Rogue's



ItemSet 334419 ItemSet 334957 ItemSet 334960
DPS:1,047.248 DPS 1,018.301 (AM1) DPS 1,068.025 (AM3)
DPS 1,041.828 (AM2)
DPS 1,065.355 (AM3)


Izuna
Quote:
ItemSet 334419
Izuna Augments
Atk & Acc +15; Crit Hit DMG +5%;DMG+17 (Main) Delay -10% (Off-Hand)
Taeon Augments
(1/4) Atk & Acc +20;Crit. Hit Rate +3;Crit. Hit DMG +3%
(3/4) Atk & Acc +20;TA +2%; STR & DEX +7
Kannagi
Quote:
ItemSet 334957
Izuna Augments
Atk & Acc +15; Crit Hit DMG +5%; Delay -10%
Taeon Augments
(4/4) Atk & Acc +20;TA +2%; STR & DEX +7
Nagi
Quote:
ItemSet 334960
Izuna Augments
Atk & Acc +15; Crit Hit DMG +5%; Delay -10%
Taeon Augments
(1/4) Atk & Acc +20;Crit. Hit Rate +3;Crit. Hit DMG +3%
(3/4) Atk & Acc +20;TA +2%; STR & DEX +7
 
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 Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
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By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2015-04-25 11:47:33
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Kaev, did you set ODD in the Setup Tab @ 30% 40% 50% for Kannagi AM1,2 & 3?

I'm getting a larger spread in DPS than you're numbers are showing.

Also, be careful, the spreadsheet will allow ODD to affect other weapons. Looks like you know that, but just a heads up.
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