NIN TANK

Learn to put them up better in the first place.

37-70 evasion is the way to go. 70+ with Dual Wield IV evasion becomes less important and damage output is where you should rely on your hate. This is what I can agree with.

Without a good evasion setup you will have Colibri picking off every shadow you put up and then hit you with pecking flurry and you'll be sol.

Evasion nin in xp = F A I L

ok is there anything else you can say besides "FAIL FAIL FAIL FAIL"
Teach me something today <.<

Yes you've reiterated that many times. Care to say something to backup your thoughts on the subject?

Edit: Oh right, use -Damage% gear when shadows are down. How about you don't let them go down in the first place by using evasion gear and stop being a MP sink.

if your having issues keeping shadows up . morethen likly the mob your fighting is a mnk mob or is to high for you to be xping off of. i personally requimend someoen else in the party to pull it off long enough to get yor shadows up thus allowing the thf to SATA u and you re astablish hate.

i personally am not a fan of the ninja tank. due to the amounts of damage i dish out as a SAM it its very hard for me to do my job. becasue ihave to hold back with a ninja tank. but if u find a ninja that knows what he/she is doing they can hold hate rater well.

Learns to count better and don't let them go down in the first place.

First of all, in xp your fighting things that are higher level than you, and are going to have near acc cap on you regardless of what your wearing (If your not totally gimping yourself).

Secondly, if you have stacked such massive evasion (I.E. every slot to every bit of evasion possible) then wtf do you expect to actually be able to hit? The entire about of hate generated by provoke is gone in 30 seconds. If you have a very poor hit rate, you will be generating next to nothing hate wise between vokes = useless nin.

The key to Nin tanking is combining decent to good damage along with provoke to keep your hate line just above that of the rest of the party for as long as you can. AND counting shadows well. Also, as someone else pointed out before, the rest of the party is nearly as important to nin tanking as the nin itself. Having a second voke for the moments, say when you just put up Ni and a bird flurrys them all away and your still 10 seconds on ichi is a God send.

Evasion Nin only evades hate. This is truth. Do good damage, count your ***, party with people who don't suck.

Me either. I prefer a PLD over a NIN most of the time. Plus a lot of nin's (and I'm definitely including myself since I was this way, cuz I was poor) don't do the things that keep hate, like elemental wheel and such.

My real question is, though, that I was always told EVA is a nin's bread and butter, and some peeps are saying it's fail. I genuinely wanna know why EVA isn't the most important thing.

Not trying to flame or cause an argument, I'm really interested. I have a friend leveling nin on the side and I'm sure he'd be interested to know...

I hate NIN tanks, every party I've been in, I stripped hate from the NIN tank like the IRS stripped $33M from MC Hammer.

Like everyone said... keep your shadows up, do high damage, and use Provoke. Only reason I don't suggest EVA gear is because shadows already reset hate by a small percentage.

carry on...

You're going on the assumption that wearing a realistic amount of evasion will actually cause you to evade XP/merit level mobs at a rate that'd make a real difference. That assumption is wrong. NIN doesn't evade especially well against higher level mobs like that, not at mid/high level. The level difference for the mob gives them more than capped accuracy, and it takes quite a lot to really reduce that.

Against EM or T mobs? Sure, you can see a difference. A good evasion setup on EP-DC range mobs will likely floor their hit rate at 20%. But on VT+ mobs, it's just a very large gap to overcome.

Again, proper support wins. A NIN with Haste and March, decent Haste gear, and fighting a mob with Carnage Elegy on can often go Ni to Ni wearing a full-on DD kit. They'll hold hate better, the mob dies faster, and so on.

Anyone blink tanking will have no shadows at one point or another. TP move wipes 'em, double attacks, whatever. You learn the timing for it. It's also a lot more reliable to reduce recast times and increase the time between mob attacks than it is to increase evasion rate.

Oh, and DWIV is level 65 >_>

I have <3's for you.

elemental wheel past lvl 50 is lol, dont waste your gill and invitory space. save up and buy yourself some nice katanas.

the blind spells and stuff work nice, but one round of your katana crits should get you more hate then that.

OHh and use acc food like sole and squid. Both equaly good in nin exp situations

I'm not sure what all has been said, but most of it looks like garbage so far.

If you want to hold hate as a Ninja in an exp party, just do this simple little thing.. gear it up as if you were a primary damage dealer. That should be easy enough for anyone to understand. Once you've geared it up the way you want, start off the fights with Hojo and/or Jubaku while the mob is coming back to camp, and provoke it after that, and keep provoking it every 30 seconds. All you need to be is a kick *** damage dealer that provokes. Not sure why everyone makes it out to be harder than that.

Wearing enmity and evasion gear isn't productive. The little boost in enmity you get from gear is negligible compared to the enmity you gain when you deal a shitload of damage. The best way to hold hate is to do boatloads of damage, so put on that hauby, put on that republic subligar, put on that ochiudo's kote, put on those woodsman rings, and put on those Beetle Earring +1's. Don't waste your time with any ninjutsu other than Hojo and/or Jubaku, and don't ever pretend that you're going to evade anything with evasion gear. I'm pretty sure I had around -29 to -40 evasion when I leveled my NIN, but I was always the top damage dealer in my party even though I was the main tank.

As far as HNMs go, it looks like people have been getting it right with NIN/DRK.

i'm not an expect either, but in my opinion you need more evasion when you can't have any haste gear. enmity gear is important as well. if you have people trick attacking on you then you can use more eva or atk or w/e.
from watching my friends and their nins evasion is less important at higher levels because they can recast shadows more often.
idk but focus on haste first then some evasion, but don't forget some enmity pieces. swap gear when necessary (haste WS enmity sets etc).
i'm not a 75nin, but i'm trying to be helpful. Isiolia and Anye's posts are good, too. Frobeus has a solid point. You need to be doing damage and counting your shadows correctly.
Good luck because being a good nin is very difficult for a lot of people. I am not looking forward to it if/when I take it past 40.

This this this & this ^

THF & NIN go together like peanut butter and jelly <3
DD pulls a massive hate move? Boom SATADE <3
DD pulled another massive hate WS when SATA isn't up or TP isn't @100%+ yet? Weeeee accomplice/collab <3

It all works out great and keeps hate stable so DDs can go nuts and makes for very fast exp ^^

I think pre-37 it's acceptable to be an evasion ninja. There's no denying Utsu-Ichi only is a royal pain.

There was a time when it was more acceptable to be a evasion ninja for a very long time, however, with all the updates to other DDs, the situation has changed. You need to do as much damage as possible in order to keep up and maintain hate, at least at the beginning of the fight.

Of course, there are situations where you can be stuck in a judgment call. If you have a THF supplying you hate and you want better survivability, then evasion. I've seen ninjas without BRDs struggle with the early Colibri, perhaps that's a judgment call. But once you get Jin there is no other choice: keep shadows up and all out DD all the time.

So just enimity + and act like a DD.
Thankss.

Nice post +1.

I agree completly. My Nin is 64, I level sync to 54-57 a lot for bird parties. A skilled Nin does not need a Thf, they just need to be well geared and know how to build enmity fast.

I actually don't like having a Thf with my Nin pre-60, as some seem to take too long setting up for SATA and/or try to get the last 10-20 tp so they can WS with it. In the time it takes to accomplish that, the first voker's shadows are gone and they are taking damage, putting a burden on the healer which can cause a hate shift (screwing up SATA, making for an even harder fight.)

For low level tanking, here is what I use:

1. Debuff spells - Very useful, great for some extra hate. I recommend buying the Ninjitsu earring lvl 35 for swapping in on these.

2. Enmity Gear - Mermaid's Ring, Eris Earrings x2 swap in for Provoke (+6 Enmity, can add in Hateful Collar/Rival Ribbon for an extra +3), full time Gothic Gauntlets/Sabatons and High Breath Mantel (+9 Enmity). Once you hit 64, you can swap in some of the Arhat gear for some added Umph.

3. WS timing - Either start with it or have another DD open a SC and close it. Timing is crucial. Be aware though, if fighting birds you will more than likey rarely have TP, so use it when you get it. Make sure you have DD gear for hitting these off with most damage.

4. Nin damage spells - These are ok, they lose a lot of their usefulness depending on race/gear once you are on birds.

That's +18 Enmity, along with attacking fast and some decent hate spells. Don't forget though, you will need Acc to land blows to keep hate. Don't be a Wiff King.

I manage to keep hate very well with Drg, Sam, War, Brd, Rdm setup. Of course, it will be more difficult with a Sam doing with a Soborro spamming WS, but if you keep your head you should still do very well.

Kalix maybe dumb ranger man, but he is smarts lvl sync ninja man!

lol, my rng rocks, don't knock it until you see it.

I didn't say you were poor damage rng man, or sux rng man, just dumb rng man :D

yea you know, I'm really trying to break 600 posts. you're pathetic, just coz you seem to think post count = knowledge, doesnt mean everyone else think that way. And you're pretty much a living proof that postcount has nothing to do with knowledge.

How to tank as Ninja depends what you're tanking, what support you have, and what gear you have available to you.

If you're in the 40s to 50s you can do crazy damage with elemental Ni spells.

Evasion being terrible or awesome depends entirely on what you're doing as well.

In a midlevel party with a Bard and RDM or WHM between Elegy+Hojo on the mob and March+Haste on you the thing will be swinging so slowly that keeping shadows up is a cinch. With no Bard and a shitty RDM or WHM who can barely manage to Haste you not so much.

Somebody will inevitably reply with some *** about "Just don't get bad parties!" or "Make your own parties!" or whatever. But, in the real world where the rest of us live that's not always possible everyone.

There's a very noticeable difference in how much you will evade EXP mobs if you TP in AF body, SH, Osode, Usu body, etc compared to a Hauby with its Eva-20. With minimal support it's sometimes a good idea to lose some damage in order to stay alive more easily.

Besides, if someone's going to piss on Evasion in EXP, then I'll piss on tanks in EXP. An outstanding EXP party doesn't have one. They have somebody who gets the mob off the puller while he goes off to get another mob. If the DDs don't suck and you've got a buffer job or two the mob won't be alive very long anyway.

i had a similar experience to this in my last party. syncd to level 68, rng rng nin thf sch whm. i voked from the rng that pulled, both would stand either side, far enough away to miss amnesia, and tanked untill both rng's had TP when they would let rip and kill the mob via sidewinder/barrage. i used a mix of evasion and enmity, as i couldnt rely on ninjutsu because they werent very accurate. i couldnt keep the hate after the sidewinders, but i held it long enough so they would die shortly after i lost hate. mp was nearly unlimited, being as only me and thief required haste, and the occasional silena for us.

Just stop acting like a hypocrite :D

Resorting to a mule with a lower post count to hide? Real nice...

You're thinking about it too much.
That was a mistake.

Anyways... To stay on topic, having a NIN tank is nice if you don't have a class that is able or in the circumstance to debuff as ninja can pull that off quite well. However, to make things balanced with today's hardcore DDs, everyone needs to show some self control or you can support your local thief in keeping enmity balanced.

i merit all the time on ninja cause its fun on birds, love torque blau merits etc. yea fun. anyways point being. i can put on an evasion set with capped evasion merits and they will still rip my shadows just as much as putting on my haub full time. so evasion set tanking in merit pt is fail. the acc the exp mob has is above and beyond anything an evasion set will save you from. has anyone here mention making macros at all?

for example. i would tp in haste/acc > attk> str gear, voke with Enmity+ gear and for lower levels, toss on evasion and haste for utsusemi and if you want to a lesser extent, ninjutsu. gear swaps are crucial for ALL levels for almost alllll jobs. utilize what SE has given us to your advantage. ninja tanks cant be lazy thats just the truth.

as far as HNM/Gods tanking. /drk is the general way to go unless you are tanking something that really cant be stunned to often. stuff like faf/nid, omega, kiting lolkirin (just *** TP burn it in a minute jeeze) /drk is awesome. lock out that pld if you want to but its not smart. on things like ouryu, tiamat, khim, id go /rdm. you can cure yourself which isnt a big deal but more importantly the MDB, and spamming of spells not to mention the ever important fast cast will make all the difference in the world.