I joined a new Dynamis LS which started early February (the past month), and was made an officer.
What I'm looking for are tips and stories about the kind of problems other people had when starting Dynamis LS's--would be nice to head off troubles before they start. (Though, some have already found us. lol.)
* * *
A little bit about the LS: it's a "sell currency and split profit" kind. The Wednesday runs and the Sunday runs' books are kept separately, so people who can only attend one day but not the other won't penalized.
Up until now, we've pretty much taken all comers as long as they can enter Dynamis city zones (including a few people under Lv.70).
Our one month record stands at:
Wed: 31 relic armor, 8,030,355g payout distributed
Sun: 21 relic armor, 10,369,073g payout distributed
Win: Jeuno, Bastok, and San d'Oria--can't seem to get to Windurst mega, yet.
Going by gut feeling (for lack of anything to compare to), it seems like we're doing OK except for not winning Windurst and unlocking Beaucedine. However, there are pockets of unhappiness:
1. People seemed a bit put off by rule adjustments. I'd thought that since it's a new LS, tweaks are inevitable and people should expect it. (No gil related rule was altered, AFAIK.) How can people become so set in their ways in just under a month? ._.;
2. Related to the above, standing out as the worst example: there was a hole in the rules where people who didn't have a Lv.70+ job could not set a main lot. Didn't think the leader ever intended for anyone not able to set a main lot, and he has said so as much.
Thus, when someone under Lv.70 was able to set lot choice and actually cast lot (in technical violation of the rules), there was a lot of grumbling, and apparently a few people have quit the LS over that.
When the hole was brought to the leader's attention, he fixed his wording and added a provision for people without Lv.70+ jobs (a tiny minority of the members). Shortly after, he thought that instead of making an exception, just drop the city relic armor requirements to Lv.65, so it would be applied uni formally to all members.
One of the officer then promptly quit the officership over that change. ^_^;;
Never thought city drops could trigger that much emotional response in the general membership or in the officer circle. /sigh
3. After that little fiasco, the last run had pretty low attendance: 19 people instead of the 30+ we had in the previous few runs. Could be coincidence, could be not.
4. In general, though, I've noticed a significant amount of churning in membership, even before the loot controversy. Guess that's expected for a LS which was formed from shout, word-of-mouth, and personal recruits, but still makes planning difficult.
* * *
Anyway, enough of our story; share yours? What kind of teething pains did your Dyanmis LS go through at its infancy? And, how did you overcome them?
Also welcome tips on how to avoid problems, recruit good players, etc.
Wated: Dynamis Growing Pain Stories
Wated: Dynamis growing pain stories
Well, I remember that when my LS first started out, I didn't know what I was in for. I thought it would be an easy task. Well, to those who don't know it's not.
I guess in our early development (first month) we had issues keeping the same people. We would get the Bastok win for like 5 people, then 5 other people would leave. It was really frustrating, but one thing you need to know... People come & go very quickly in a new LS. People want entitlements, so if you want to keep them, you have to give. I did not give. Instead of giving to the new people, I just let them leave because I didn't want people like that in my shell. Eventually, I started a recruitment trial for people who had friends that wanted to start endgame. Those who brought a friend, were rewarded 20k. This is, sadly, how we ended up with most of our members today, and it wasn't the 20k reward, then we would get members from people asking "hey can my friend come for the win tonight?" or just random people that I met in merit parties or farming.
Lotting rules were simple.... Each person could pick 1 dream piece. That would take priority over others. No matter what the piece. Every person got one, and once you received the piece, that was it. You had to spend points on everything else. I realized down the road that this was a mistake and cancelled the rule, because we had some people who joined for just 1 piece, then left. Now, if you have points, then you can lot. They are your points, you can do whatever that you want with them. No /seacoms. I don't understand why LS's do that. If you've worked hard for your point, then you shouldn't have to limit yourself to like 2 items.
Strategies were basic... Most of them composed by me through compiling other LS's strategies and mixing them together. BLM's sleepga 2 before nuking any statue. SAM main assist. One RDM per party. Usually, we only had 1 BRD, which went to the BLM party for refreshga and threnody. I never liked taking more than 4 blms into any dynamis unless one of them sucked. Xarcabard is the only exception, which I take 6 BLMs. The THF pullers have left a lot, lol. Once I taught one person how to pull, they'd leave and I'd have to teach someone else. Now the THF puller we have doesn't pull unless I tell him too because he's afraid that he might mess up. Oh well, everyone can't be perfect.
Currency has always gone to upgrading peoples' gear and funding future runs. I spent a lot on M.Kris for our drks, and other various items for our PLDs.
Well all-in-all I've been very, VERY kind to all my members. I've not once spoken down to anyone and ive kept it as fair as humanly possible. I've made the LS into a group of friends, and if you ask me, those are the shells that carry on. All of my members love how I run things, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them reply to this lol.
Hope my story helps, wish I could type more but my phone batter is about dead :(.
I guess in our early development (first month) we had issues keeping the same people. We would get the Bastok win for like 5 people, then 5 other people would leave. It was really frustrating, but one thing you need to know... People come & go very quickly in a new LS. People want entitlements, so if you want to keep them, you have to give. I did not give. Instead of giving to the new people, I just let them leave because I didn't want people like that in my shell. Eventually, I started a recruitment trial for people who had friends that wanted to start endgame. Those who brought a friend, were rewarded 20k. This is, sadly, how we ended up with most of our members today, and it wasn't the 20k reward, then we would get members from people asking "hey can my friend come for the win tonight?" or just random people that I met in merit parties or farming.
Lotting rules were simple.... Each person could pick 1 dream piece. That would take priority over others. No matter what the piece. Every person got one, and once you received the piece, that was it. You had to spend points on everything else. I realized down the road that this was a mistake and cancelled the rule, because we had some people who joined for just 1 piece, then left. Now, if you have points, then you can lot. They are your points, you can do whatever that you want with them. No /seacoms. I don't understand why LS's do that. If you've worked hard for your point, then you shouldn't have to limit yourself to like 2 items.
Strategies were basic... Most of them composed by me through compiling other LS's strategies and mixing them together. BLM's sleepga 2 before nuking any statue. SAM main assist. One RDM per party. Usually, we only had 1 BRD, which went to the BLM party for refreshga and threnody. I never liked taking more than 4 blms into any dynamis unless one of them sucked. Xarcabard is the only exception, which I take 6 BLMs. The THF pullers have left a lot, lol. Once I taught one person how to pull, they'd leave and I'd have to teach someone else. Now the THF puller we have doesn't pull unless I tell him too because he's afraid that he might mess up. Oh well, everyone can't be perfect.
Currency has always gone to upgrading peoples' gear and funding future runs. I spent a lot on M.Kris for our drks, and other various items for our PLDs.
Well all-in-all I've been very, VERY kind to all my members. I've not once spoken down to anyone and ive kept it as fair as humanly possible. I've made the LS into a group of friends, and if you ask me, those are the shells that carry on. All of my members love how I run things, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them reply to this lol.
Hope my story helps, wish I could type more but my phone batter is about dead :(.
The reason people left after one month is because they would have signed up liking the rules that were set. If those rules are changed, the reason they joined has evaporated.
It's always wise to get any rules done before you start your group. And if you change them allow the ls to decide how to play it.
To begin with the rules for my Dyna group were that you could only lot if you could equip it. After the first run, the ls and I had come to the decision that it should be 65+ for lotting. Noone left, because the whole decision was done openly and with the ls's backing.
My ls also operates a pay out from the profits, but we've never had 10 mil from a run. How did you do that?Or is it a cumulative total?
So I guess my advice is keep everything out in the open. Dont make any shady leadership decisions.
Allow people to voice their concerns without fear of starting a fight.
Without all the pawns there would be no dynamis, so listen to them and treat them as equals.
By doing the above my ls has gone from strength to strength(40+ members on some runs). Everyone feels like part of a team and we work together to acheive our goals.
As for recruiting. As soon as people catch on that you're operating a fair system they'll start coming to you, bringing friends etc. Just got to wait as the word gets around your server. (I give members 10 points if they recruit a new member. Also an incentive :D)
God im rambling.. another thing. Please try not to kill your players too much. Theres nothing more demoralising that an ls relying on multiple wipes to win a zone. It can be done without all the death!
Hope my ramble helps somewhat lol
It's always wise to get any rules done before you start your group. And if you change them allow the ls to decide how to play it.
To begin with the rules for my Dyna group were that you could only lot if you could equip it. After the first run, the ls and I had come to the decision that it should be 65+ for lotting. Noone left, because the whole decision was done openly and with the ls's backing.
My ls also operates a pay out from the profits, but we've never had 10 mil from a run. How did you do that?Or is it a cumulative total?
So I guess my advice is keep everything out in the open. Dont make any shady leadership decisions.
Allow people to voice their concerns without fear of starting a fight.
Without all the pawns there would be no dynamis, so listen to them and treat them as equals.
By doing the above my ls has gone from strength to strength(40+ members on some runs). Everyone feels like part of a team and we work together to acheive our goals.
As for recruiting. As soon as people catch on that you're operating a fair system they'll start coming to you, bringing friends etc. Just got to wait as the word gets around your server. (I give members 10 points if they recruit a new member. Also an incentive :D)
God im rambling.. another thing. Please try not to kill your players too much. Theres nothing more demoralising that an ls relying on multiple wipes to win a zone. It can be done without all the death!
Hope my ramble helps somewhat lol
I would have started off at 65+ for lotting, by changing it I can see why you stepped on some people's feet but I really wouldn't see what the big deal is for them. Most shells normally start out with members being able to main lot 65+, or either main lot 70+/only equippable and anything unlotted would go 65+ and then into open or free lot.
One thing that I noticed though (and I've never run an endgame ls but have ran event ls) is that if you make any changes to the rules, it tends to upset people because they feel that they could get screwed over either by that rule change or future rule changes. It makes them lose trust in you, and without some level of trust, people will start to lose interest and the ls won't work. If you have to change any rules, probably best to go over it with the ls as a whole, rather than just within the officer circle. Either take open suggestions, or bring it to a vote, or just go over it and explain why it's being done just so that no one gets surprised.
One thing that I noticed though (and I've never run an endgame ls but have ran event ls) is that if you make any changes to the rules, it tends to upset people because they feel that they could get screwed over either by that rule change or future rule changes. It makes them lose trust in you, and without some level of trust, people will start to lose interest and the ls won't work. If you have to change any rules, probably best to go over it with the ls as a whole, rather than just within the officer circle. Either take open suggestions, or bring it to a vote, or just go over it and explain why it's being done just so that no one gets surprised.
[+]
Remora.Willoflame said:
Well, I remember that when my LS first started out, I didn't know what I was in for. I thought it would be an easy task. Well, to those who don't know it's not. I guess in our early development (first month) we had issues keeping the same people. We would get the Bastok win for like 5 people, then 5 other people would leave. It was really frustrating, but one thing you need to know... People come & go very quickly in a new LS. People want entitlements, so if you want to keep them, you have to give. I did not give. Instead of giving to the new people, I just let them leave because I didn't want people like that in my shell. Eventually, I started a recruitment trial for people who had friends that wanted to start endgame. Those who brought a friend, were rewarded 20k. This is, sadly, how we ended up with most of our members today, and it wasn't the 20k reward, then we would get members from people asking "hey can my friend come for the win tonight?" or just random people that I met in merit parties or farming. Lotting rules were simple.... Each person could pick 1 dream piece. That would take priority over others. No matter what the piece. Every person got one, and once you received the piece, that was it. You had to spend points on everything else. I realized down the road that this was a mistake and cancelled the rule, because we had some people who joined for just 1 piece, then left. Now, if you have points, then you can lot. They are your points, you can do whatever that you want with them. No /seacoms. I don't understand why LS's do that. If you've worked hard for your point, then you shouldn't have to limit yourself to like 2 items. Strategies were basic... Most of them composed by me through compiling other LS's strategies and mixing them together. BLM's sleepga 2 before nuking any statue. SAM main assist. One RDM per party. Usually, we only had 1 BRD, which went to the BLM party for refreshga and threnody. I never liked taking more than 4 blms into any dynamis unless one of them sucked. Xarcabard is the only exception, which I take 6 BLMs. The THF pullers have left a lot, lol. Once I taught one person how to pull, they'd leave and I'd have to teach someone else. Now the THF puller we have doesn't pull unless I tell him too because he's afraid that he might mess up. Oh well, everyone can't be perfect. Currency has always gone to upgrading peoples' gear and funding future runs. I spent a lot on M.Kris for our drks, and other various items for our PLDs. Well all-in-all I've been very, VERY kind to all my members. I've not once spoken down to anyone and ive kept it as fair as humanly possible. I've made the LS into a group of friends, and if you ask me, those are the shells that carry on. All of my members love how I run things, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of them reply to this lol. Hope my story helps, wish I could type more but my phone batter is about dead :(.
I run a dynamis LS and have since NOV 09, definetly more work than it seems. I wasn't even looking to do it initialy, there was a hole in leadership and my previous shell almost disbanded, so A friend and I stepped up grabbed whoever was left and built one almost from scratch. I love doing it now, wouldn't change it for the world, but I will say this...
Dynamis is NOT for the fussy, new shells die ALOT. Heck even veteran shells have an off night, and while it can be boring at times everything really depends on everyone doing the specific job they are asigned very well. You get some ppl that want gear drops every run for them and complain that it doesn't (like it's my fault). Other people who complain about not getting R3 when there is little time to spare. People who think hey deserve special treatment for comming thf brd rdm or nuker. Oh and my personal favorite people who think they can cut the lines for gear.
I can't say I blame the desire to get your gear quick and get out, but this is FFXI, you should know that the quick in and out gear nab doesn't exist an ANY endgame event.
Still I am happy to say that the good helpful people FAR outweight the jerks and if anyone from my shell is reading this let me just say, thank you everyone for making mon and fri nights so much fun!
Dynamis is NOT for the fussy, new shells die ALOT. Heck even veteran shells have an off night, and while it can be boring at times everything really depends on everyone doing the specific job they are asigned very well. You get some ppl that want gear drops every run for them and complain that it doesn't (like it's my fault). Other people who complain about not getting R3 when there is little time to spare. People who think hey deserve special treatment for comming thf brd rdm or nuker. Oh and my personal favorite people who think they can cut the lines for gear.
I can't say I blame the desire to get your gear quick and get out, but this is FFXI, you should know that the quick in and out gear nab doesn't exist an ANY endgame event.
Still I am happy to say that the good helpful people FAR outweight the jerks and if anyone from my shell is reading this let me just say, thank you everyone for making mon and fri nights so much fun!
yeah as a linkshell officer myself through multiple endgame linkshells, I've had my share of setting up and maintaining the administration of linkshells for quite some time now.
From my experience, linkshells tend to operate best with two factors: first, the simplicity of the rule set. Second, friendship.
Simple rule sets, while leaving much open for debate, tend to do best for retaining new members. A new player who joins your ls for gear and fun, now has to read a laundry list of rules on your website and somehow remember and comply with all of it immediately. This is too complicated for many people and is intimidating and overwhelming for newer players. I've run into people who, even with a concise set of rules, just simply won't even read them and are then bewildered by the fact that there even ARE rules. It's ridiculous. Simplifying your rule set will likely do everything it can to make things less of a headache for everyone involved.
Friendship is a tough one, but entirely necessary. Sure, you're not gonna get along with everyone you meet in game, and even fewer you'll actually befriend. However, creating these bonds with other players builds trust, and makes for more enjoyable events as you're playing with friends and not strangers. I've noticed that the overall morale in linkshells filled with /shout members and random people is relatively low, and exhibit more of a selfish atmosphere ("I only joined to get my *name of gear here*"). Defeats and losses only bring morale in these groups lower, where continuous failure can easily break your linkshell or leave you with so few members that events are impossible to complete.
I'd definitely encourage you to try to befriend as many players as you can. Speak with them on vent, maybe get a few phone numbers and send silly text messages to them at random times, play other online games together... just anything that could let you get to know people better. I cant even tell you the number of runs that have been saved through being with friends... where things go sour and everyone just starts laughing and trying to mpk each other.
When you're comfortable inside dynamis-beaucidine or sandy, I highly recommend playing a "bounty" game with the orc NM's. Since they can use charm, place bounties on the heads of charmed players and see who gets the kill shot! It becomes incredibly entertaining watching the results. Just to keep the game fair and you dont have everyone just killing any charmed people they see, make sure only a leader can call bounties and be sure to set the bounties BEFORE a player gets charmed (beginning of the run, or on your way to the NM is your best bet). If you're the one calling bounties, be sure to rotate players you've placed bounties on so you're not singling out players, and instead attempting to kill your ls mates evenly. LOL But again, this mini-game probably wont go over so well with strangers, it tends to work best with friends.
From my experience, linkshells tend to operate best with two factors: first, the simplicity of the rule set. Second, friendship.
Simple rule sets, while leaving much open for debate, tend to do best for retaining new members. A new player who joins your ls for gear and fun, now has to read a laundry list of rules on your website and somehow remember and comply with all of it immediately. This is too complicated for many people and is intimidating and overwhelming for newer players. I've run into people who, even with a concise set of rules, just simply won't even read them and are then bewildered by the fact that there even ARE rules. It's ridiculous. Simplifying your rule set will likely do everything it can to make things less of a headache for everyone involved.
Friendship is a tough one, but entirely necessary. Sure, you're not gonna get along with everyone you meet in game, and even fewer you'll actually befriend. However, creating these bonds with other players builds trust, and makes for more enjoyable events as you're playing with friends and not strangers. I've noticed that the overall morale in linkshells filled with /shout members and random people is relatively low, and exhibit more of a selfish atmosphere ("I only joined to get my *name of gear here*"). Defeats and losses only bring morale in these groups lower, where continuous failure can easily break your linkshell or leave you with so few members that events are impossible to complete.
I'd definitely encourage you to try to befriend as many players as you can. Speak with them on vent, maybe get a few phone numbers and send silly text messages to them at random times, play other online games together... just anything that could let you get to know people better. I cant even tell you the number of runs that have been saved through being with friends... where things go sour and everyone just starts laughing and trying to mpk each other.
When you're comfortable inside dynamis-beaucidine or sandy, I highly recommend playing a "bounty" game with the orc NM's. Since they can use charm, place bounties on the heads of charmed players and see who gets the kill shot! It becomes incredibly entertaining watching the results. Just to keep the game fair and you dont have everyone just killing any charmed people they see, make sure only a leader can call bounties and be sure to set the bounties BEFORE a player gets charmed (beginning of the run, or on your way to the NM is your best bet). If you're the one calling bounties, be sure to rotate players you've placed bounties on so you're not singling out players, and instead attempting to kill your ls mates evenly. LOL But again, this mini-game probably wont go over so well with strangers, it tends to work best with friends.
I'm sure as hecks not a leader and don't want to be, but as a dyna pawn/minion/baby, I can tell you reasons I've left ls's so you can see it from a non-leading point of view.
Linkshell 1: Rules were not enforced for certain players (in particular, a leader's girlfriend.) The boiling point for me was when the girlfriend had ditched dynamis for a long enough time to be considered inactive (inactive people are not allowed to lot, mind you, according to the ls rules, and you have to attend 3 dynas in a row to become re-active) but when she came to 1 dyna after being inactive and another member lotted against her for a piece of gear, the other member was told to pass the gear. It was not me nor any of my friends on the ls who was told to pass, but I thought it was unfair and I left shortly after. (Moral: be fair to all members, no special treatment.)
Linkshell 2: This ls was supposed to have two equal leaders and the two of them had been friends for quite some time. They made the new ls together, but a few weeks into it they got into a fight and the ls broke up as a result. (Moral: I guess iron out any troubles you can foresee before even making the ls. If the leaders need to argue to get things straightened out, don't do it in front of the minions and don't ask them to choose sides.)
Linkshell 3: The leader server-hopped. That's obviously something that just happens, and the leader certainly did not intend to hop when the ls was made. But if you have any plans to leave your server, don't make a ls on that server.
Linkshell 1: Rules were not enforced for certain players (in particular, a leader's girlfriend.) The boiling point for me was when the girlfriend had ditched dynamis for a long enough time to be considered inactive (inactive people are not allowed to lot, mind you, according to the ls rules, and you have to attend 3 dynas in a row to become re-active) but when she came to 1 dyna after being inactive and another member lotted against her for a piece of gear, the other member was told to pass the gear. It was not me nor any of my friends on the ls who was told to pass, but I thought it was unfair and I left shortly after. (Moral: be fair to all members, no special treatment.)
Linkshell 2: This ls was supposed to have two equal leaders and the two of them had been friends for quite some time. They made the new ls together, but a few weeks into it they got into a fight and the ls broke up as a result. (Moral: I guess iron out any troubles you can foresee before even making the ls. If the leaders need to argue to get things straightened out, don't do it in front of the minions and don't ask them to choose sides.)
Linkshell 3: The leader server-hopped. That's obviously something that just happens, and the leader certainly did not intend to hop when the ls was made. But if you have any plans to leave your server, don't make a ls on that server.
I have no bad stories because we are good except one relic SAM who will go unnamed who likes to die!
really if you do not have a 75 job, why go to dyna? I nver understood that... And to keep a LS going, need fair constant rules that do not bend for others. Once you bend them once, they do not mean much at all.
Bahamut.Branwen said:
My ls also operates a pay out from the profits, but we've never had 10 mil from a run. How did you do that?Or is it a cumulative total?[
Kind of a surprise we did that well; didn't expect break even on the first run or three. lol.
* * *
I see a lot of people point to keeping rules constant, and/or changing rules in the open.
The first part would've been difficult, since there really was a big hole/mistake in the original rules which needed to be fixed. Would have been nice to have caught the mistake earlier, but a newbie Dynamis LS will make mistakes, both in and out of Dynamis. Oh well.
The second part ... The rule are posted, and the change was explained on the LS's forum--the idea was to fix the problem fast after the run in which the problem surfaced, rather than wait until next run.
Overall, though, I'd like to think the LS is operating in a transparent manner:
- Rules are publicly viewable (and all changes noted in separate posts). There aren't that many rules, either.
- Points record (and current totals) are publicly viewable.
- Gil records (including individuals' pays) are publicly viewable.
* * *
Give me more stories! I rather deal with problems ahead of time than scramble to recover. x_x;
Ifrit.Itazura said:
Bahamut.Branwen said:
My ls also operates a pay out from the profits, but we've never had 10 mil from a run. How did you do that?Or is it a cumulative total?[
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