Fixing Shinryu

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Fixing Shinryu
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-26 22:30:29
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Anyone who really knows Shinryu's HTB knows what I'm alluding to. I respectfully ask anyone who would appreciate SE fixing this fight (to make entry & drop rates respectable without turning it into easy mode) to click the link, log in to the forum, and give the post a thumbs up. If nothing comes of this, I won't be upset, but it doesn't hurt to try. Thank you.

Please Fix Shinryu
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-26 22:53:20
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I think it's coming up on 2 years since it got released, think it was summer 2021, and as someone who is approaching 500 VD kills of him I can't agree more.

Nothing should take 2 years to get never mind the fact that 5!, yes 5 pieces of gear from this fight are all Tartarus Platemail droprate levels of bad.

I'm one of the unfortunate ones who is seeing one of the rare drops every 100 kills or so, but every single one has been the Scythe.

4 Scythes in all my kills and 2 years of effort.

Liked your forum post, hopefully you can get a lot of people to follow suit.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-26 22:59:56
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Siren.Kruel said: »
I think it's coming up on 2 years since it got released, think it was summer 2021, and as someone who is approaching 500 VD kills of him I can't agree more.

Nothing should take 2 years to get never mind the fact that 5!, yes 5 pieces of gear from this fight are all Tartarus Platemail droprate levels of bad.

I'm one of the unfortunate ones who is seeing one of the rare drops every 100 kills or so, but every single one has been the Scythe.

4 Scythes in all my kills and 2 years of effort.

Liked your forum post, hopefully you can get a lot of people to follow suit.

I'd share this on the post itself so SE can read your experience. They can't gloss over this if several players share stories like these.
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-26 23:07:27
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »

I'd share this on the post itself so SE can read your experience. They can't gloss over this if several players share stories like these.
Just copy and pasted what I wrote here to the forum, hope that's ok.
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By Aquatiq 2023-05-27 00:52:38
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help control the wyrm god population, have yours spayed or neutered
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By Seun 2023-05-27 02:24:36
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I can't sign on to the official post, but I do wish you best luck in your battles. All the HTMB can be a royal pain depending on your RNG. Keep at it and you'll get what you're after though.
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-27 03:18:05
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Kylos made this thread because of the obvious error the devs made with this HTBF.

Across all of the HTBF's only 1 item even comes close to the low droprate of all 5 of these drops, and that's the Gyve Doublet from Dawn.

Difference is, all you gotta do is get lucky once with the gyve doublet and its 1% drop, which means if you get that 1% drop in the expected 100ish kills, you're guaranteed it, which I also did back in the day.

All 5 of these items occupy the same dropslot, so getting the one you want when they're all a 1% dropslot chance, well the actual odds of that are so ridiculous, it's not even funny, as my x4 Scythes can attest, whilst I'm trying to get a dagger and cloak.

The way the Shinryu fight works is a dropslot split rate of 99% common accessory, 1% for weapons or armour.

I've taken many people into my VD runs over the past 2 years, and over 90% of the time you get a double dropslot instead of the single.

Bringing people in for drops means those 2 dropslots 99% of the time are a double accessory drop regardless of treasure hunter, same as king behemoth and the split dropslot rate between the pixie earring and defending ring, treasure hunter bears no influence.

Treasure hunter does affect the chance of the 2nd dropslot, but on VD it's so high anyway just use a TH4 set on whatever job you're on, TH9+ is overkill.

Appreciate the sentiment though about keeping at it, but there has to come a point where enough is enough lol, I think 2 years
and 500 VD kills is long enough to be keeping at it.

The drop system for this particular HTBF is extremely flawed.

Here's another way to look at it, I've gotten x8 5/5 malignance sets in the past 12 months and bunch of 3/5's and 4/5's, and people complain that malignance is hard to get, doesn't even compare to the Shinryu 1% drops, something to think about.
 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-27 03:26:08
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I should have worded it better/simpler.

The dropslot in this HTBF has a guaranteed 99% accessory or 1% other drop with a chance of a 2nd dropslot that does the same.

The dropslots ALWAYS, have an item in them, same as King Behemoth.

This also means someone getting the kill on very easy has the exact same chance at a rare drop from the dropslot as someone getting the kill on VD, only advantage to VD is the high rate of getting the 2nd slot, can't think the developers purposely planned it this way.
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By Seun 2023-05-27 05:14:02
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Siren.Kruel said: »
This also means someone getting the kill on very easy has the exact same chance at a rare drop from the dropslot as someone getting the kill on VD, only advantage to VD is the high rate of getting the 2nd slot, can't think the developers purposely planned it this way.


Increasing difficulty isn't supposed to adjust the drop rate as it would in other HTMB. Rare items stay rare. They live in their reward tier, so that part is working as intended.


They could add the old proc system from OG Shinryu to add yet another slot. It's still going to be a slot with the same terribly low chance at rare items. Oh, and we go back to only doing Shinryu at specific parts of the Vana'diel day again... actually, nvm I said that...
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By Lili 2023-05-27 06:06:24
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Siren.Kruel said: »
This also means someone getting the kill on very easy has the exact same chance at a rare drop from the dropslot as someone getting the kill on VD, only advantage to VD is the high rate of getting the 2nd slot, can't think the developers purposely planned it this way.

I'm confused, are you describing how it is right now, or are you stating how you think it should be?

Lilith works that way btw, got 9/9 on two chars in under 200 fights spamming E.
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By Seun 2023-05-27 06:11:38
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Lili said: »
Siren.Kruel said: »
This also means someone getting the kill on very easy has the exact same chance at a rare drop from the dropslot as someone getting the kill on VD, only advantage to VD is the high rate of getting the 2nd slot, can't think the developers purposely planned it this way.
Lilith works that way btw, got 9/9 on two chars in under 200 fights spamming E.

Not the same. Lilith doesn't have guaranteed slot.
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 Asura.Disclai
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By Asura.Disclai 2023-05-27 06:29:21
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There simply should have been a proc system of some sort, both to facilitate rarer drops and to harken back to OG Shinryu.

Make the proc'd drop slots have a much higher chance at rare loot.

There, the HTBF is fixed.
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 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2023-05-27 07:22:22
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300 runs. got all drops except for the Impact/mage body which I ended up buying from someone who got in a trove drop.
All my alts have the dagger now. (6 total) but everything else was 1/300. took 9 days of doing it none stop. I never want to see reisenjima or play a cleave job ever again. It wouldn't have been as painful if I didn't have to /dimmer after every second fight to go get merits and the KI.
Either increase merit point cap to 500 or make shinryu battle 10 merits like everything else.
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By Asura.Neojuggernautx 2023-05-27 07:51:29
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Ragnarok.Primex said: »
300 runs. got all drops except for the Impact/mage body which I ended up buying from someone who got in a trove drop.
All my alts have the dagger now. (6 total) but everything else was 1/300. took 9 days of doing it none stop. I never want to see reisenjima or play a cleave job ever again. It wouldn't have been as painful if I didn't have to /dimmer after every second fight to go get merits and the KI.
Either increase merit point cap to 500 or make shinryu battle 10 merits like everything else.

Originally SE had this as a 10 merit fight but the fight went off the old three instances at once system and not the queuing system. SE had the bright idea of increasing the merits to relieve congestion when in reality I think eventually the abysmal drop rate stopped many desires to do the fight. When AMAN trove is your primary source of gear production…something dunn went wrong
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By Blazed1979 2023-05-27 08:08:23
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Asura.Neojuggernautx said: »
Ragnarok.Primex said: »
300 runs. got all drops except for the Impact/mage body which I ended up buying from someone who got in a trove drop.
All my alts have the dagger now. (6 total) but everything else was 1/300. took 9 days of doing it none stop. I never want to see reisenjima or play a cleave job ever again. It wouldn't have been as painful if I didn't have to /dimmer after every second fight to go get merits and the KI.
Either increase merit point cap to 500 or make shinryu battle 10 merits like everything else.

Originally SE had this as a 10 merit fight but the fight went off the old three instances at once system and not the queuing system. SE had the bright idea of increasing the merits to relieve congestion when in reality I think eventually the abysmal drop rate stopped many desires to do the fight. When AMAN trove is your primary source of gear production…something dunn went wrong
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By Seun 2023-05-27 08:22:49
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Asura.Neojuggernautx said: »
When AMAN trove is your primary source of gear production…something dunn went wrong

Trove is only a primary source if you overwhelm it with your wallet. Even then, it's a handful of items in a pool with hundreds. Pretty close to your original 1% chance of something good.
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2023-05-27 11:17:52
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I gave up after like 75 VD kills saw 2 scythe that's it. You're better off farming gil and buying from trove. 30 merits and atrocious drop rates...
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 Asura.Geriond
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By Asura.Geriond 2023-05-27 11:28:14
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1200 VD kills, never saw cloak or mail.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-27 11:28:56
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Seun said: »
Asura.Neojuggernautx said: »
When AMAN trove is your primary source of gear production…something dunn went wrong

Trove is only a primary source if you overwhelm it with your wallet. Even then, it's a handful of items in a pool with hundreds. Pretty close to your original 1% chance of something good.

I have never put my wallet towards AMAN, only my 2 mules that I had anyway, while doing my best to get as many silver vouchers as possible per month. I got a Crepsucular Scythe last week from AMAN with minimal effort. Had I tried getting it from Shinryu... unless I won the lottery, it would have taken considerably more time & effort.

Players are doing AMAN anyways, mostly for Orpheus, Epam, Sroda, and whatever else they can use. And you don't need to throw gil at it, you just have to do menial tasks and get lucky. It doesn't give players motivation to work hard to get this rare equipment when the rates and entry aren't fair. It's night & day compared to the other more recent HTBs like Odin/Cait/Alex/Lilith. However, it's obvious they screwed up Lilith because it's more convenient to spam VE/E than it is to kill the adds on higher difficulty... but at least SE gave us options.

Shinryu doesn't give any other options. You grind the hell out of it for hundreds of kills, or you do AMAN and be grateful to get anything. Most are settling for the latter, and it shouldn't be the case. What SE needs to do, if they ever decide to up the drop rates (which I doubt, but again, it doesn't hurt to ask), they can't make it, for example, too easy to get them solo on Normal. Teamwork should be encouraged to spam VD and "fairly" reward those for doing so.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2023-05-27 12:30:34
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my last memory of this fight. I’ll never forgive them for this, even cheating and not seeing a non accessory drop in literal HUNDREDS of fights. Truly unbelievable

Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Moderndayz said: »
Asura.Cthaeh said: »
Damn, no more brewing VD Shinryu...

Be glad they didn't ban people for abusing this exploit like in the past.

Went from 39 million cruor down to 14m and I still did not see one drop the entire time (have all accessories). I won’t touch this fight ever again, but I would have preferred being banned instead.

Grats to everyone who got drops off of this.
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 Carbuncle.Nynja
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By Carbuncle.Nynja 2023-05-27 12:59:37
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SE doesnt see a problem with this. Its planned misery, and by planned misery I mean they saw how quickly people stopped farming the original HTMB's for gear with the 100% drop stop on D/VD.

Thats why the newer HTMB's dont have 100% drop slot. Theres a gimmick for Lilith, but Odin/Cait/Alex dont have 100% drop slots.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2023-05-27 13:11:18
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There’s a MAJOR difference in drops from Cait Sith/Alexander/Odin and Shinryu. By comparison, I was able to get most of the drops (malignance, weapons, accessories etc) on the former fights solo between E-N across maybe 350 fights or so. Did a lot of VD fights with competition and got the remainder of the drops, would estimate maybe ~400 runs total between just dumping Mérits and farming stones.

In the same amount of Shinryu VD fights, I’ve not seen anything besides an accessory (or nothing because I have them all). They screwed the distribution up so bad to deliberately keep you doing it into perpetuity, and then they slapped everyone in the face who grounded it by making it drop without any effort from a lottery system aka Trove.

Nobody really complains about the former HTB drops, because they are reasonable. Shinryu is not. By design.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-27 13:11:49
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Carbuncle.Nynja said: »
SE doesnt see a problem with this. Its planned misery, and by planned misery I mean they saw how quickly people stopped farming the original HTMB's for gear with the 100% drop stop on D/VD.

Thats why the newer HTMB's dont have 100% drop slot. Theres a gimmick for Lilith, but Odin/Cait/Alex dont have 100% drop slots.

But still, the drop rates on Odin/Cait/Alex are fair. Kill them enough times, the gear will drop. With Shinryu it is pure lottery, and the constant running back and forth to get more merits gives few the motivation to grind it out.

I've done Odin many times and even without the 100% drop slot, it is at least x100 times better than Shinryu. The equipment from Shinryu aren't worth this rarity. If it dropped stage 3 Prime weapons? Sure. Keep it like it is. But the effort to reward ratio is way off the scale. Planned misery does nothing but turn off players from doing the content.
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 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-27 13:13:46
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Lili said: »
Siren.Kruel said: »
This also means someone getting the kill on very easy has the exact same chance at a rare drop from the dropslot as someone getting the kill on VD, only advantage to VD is the high rate of getting the 2nd slot, can't think the developers purposely planned it this way.

I'm confused, are you describing how it is right now, or are you stating how you think it should be?

Lilith works that way btw, got 9/9 on two chars in under 200 fights spamming E.
I was describing how it is right now.

Lilith doesn't have a guaranteed dropslot, and when you do get a dropslot, Malignance gear has roughly a 10% chance of being in said dropslot.

Then there's the fact that even on VD, Lilith only has 1 dropslot if you only kill her and not the wardens, so quite different from Shinryu.

And yes, you got 9/9 spamming easy because a dropslot is still roughly 40% on easy with at least TH4, so just less than 1 in every 2 runs u did resulted in a dropslot, and said dropslot had a 10% chance at malig gear.

From a lot of testing over the years myself, and from many others, only Lilith and Shinryu seem to use the dropslot system across all htfb fights.

So you were partially right that Lilith works that way, she does use dropslots, but no guaranteed dropslot, and the rarest droprate items from Lilith are no where near the 0.5% to 1% chance of Shinryu's 5 rare drops.

Mentioning 0.5% because I only run him on VD with a 90%+ 2 dropslot rate, and only have 4 rare drops in 500 kills, so my droprates have been close to 0.5% thanks to double dropslots.
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By Seun 2023-05-27 13:26:31
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I have never put my wallet towards AMAN, only my 2 mules that I had anyway, while doing my best to get as many silver vouchers as possible per month. I got a Crepsucular Scythe last week from AMAN with minimal effort. Had I tried getting it from Shinryu... unless I won the lottery, it would have taken considerably more time & effort.

Any orb you have used since the update (over a year ago) has been a chance at Shinryu loot, so they all be counted toward that 'minimal effort'. All the RoE you did since then, any gil you spent at Greyson buying vouchers, time playing the mandragora game, chacharoon new year event, ect. ect.


Guaranteed 1% chance on the HTMB vs the ~1% chance every ~5 orbs that you get a loud thud in Trove? Shinryu is already better, but then add the fact that merits are on demand and orbs are not...
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By Asura.Eiryl 2023-05-27 13:29:26
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Buying the drop from someone else's trove is 100%(*)
 Siren.Kruel
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By Siren.Kruel 2023-05-27 13:30:35
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Seun said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I have never put my wallet towards AMAN, only my 2 mules that I had anyway, while doing my best to get as many silver vouchers as possible per month. I got a Crepsucular Scythe last week from AMAN with minimal effort. Had I tried getting it from Shinryu... unless I won the lottery, it would have taken considerably more time & effort.

Any orb you have used since the update (over a year ago) has been a chance at Shinryu loot, so they all be counted toward that 'minimal effort'. All the RoE you did since then, any gil you spent at Greyson buying vouchers, time playing the mandragora game, chacharoon new year event, ect. ect.


Guaranteed 1% chance on the HTMB vs the ~1% chance every ~5 orbs that you get a loud thud in Trove? Shinryu is already better, but then add the fact that merits are on demand and orbs are not...
That makes sense if you're happy with any of the five 1% drops from Shinryu, but look at me.

I want the Dagger and Cloak, but got 4 Scythes for my drops, so that guaranteed 1% chance doesn't seem as good now does it lol, if you're after only specific drops from the five 1% items.

And again, as someone with a decently large testpool of 500 VD kills, I'm actually at 0.5% droprate, so takes twice as many to see a rare drop vs a 1% droprate.

A slight edit.

You are sort of correct at each win being pretty much a 1% chance at a rare drop if you run VD though, thanks to the 90%+ double dropslot, but each of those dropslots are 0.5% from my testpool.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-27 13:32:57
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Seun said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I have never put my wallet towards AMAN, only my 2 mules that I had anyway, while doing my best to get as many silver vouchers as possible per month. I got a Crepsucular Scythe last week from AMAN with minimal effort. Had I tried getting it from Shinryu... unless I won the lottery, it would have taken considerably more time & effort.

Any orb you have used since the update (over a year ago) has been a chance at Shinryu loot, so they all be counted toward that 'minimal effort'. All the RoE you did since then, any gil you spent at Greyson buying vouchers, time playing the mandragora game, chacharoon new year event, ect. ect.


Guaranteed 1% chance on the HTMB vs the ~1% chance every ~5 orbs that you get a loud thud in Trove? Shinryu is already better, but then add the fact that merits are on demand and orbs are not...

Never bought orbs with gil, or bought gear via an AMAN trove yell (super rarely see those here), and never will. Also, you do AMAN to get anything and everything, you aren't specifically aiming for any one thing. If you're implying that Shinryu has a better chance of giving its own equipment to the player than AMAN? Well, yeah, obviously. But look at the whole picture here. Comprehend what is being said. I'm not here to argue with anyone.

Most players will skip Shinryu and if it so happens they get its equipment from AMAN, that's a sweet bonus. We see Shinryu equipment dropping more so from AMAN... because players do it, but they don't do Shinryu. And it's obvious why that is. If Shinryu also dropped Orpheus, Epam, Sroda, Malignance, Omen bodies etc, then it would be spammed to death by everyone. The effort to reward ratio would be enticing enough.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2023-05-27 14:00:22
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We're up to 18 thumbs up on the official forum. If we could double that, SE might entertain a momentary glance. I believe it needs way over 50 for them to really take notice. Thanks to everyone who has responded positively so far.
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