[Opinion] Returning Player DD Question

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[Opinion] Returning Player DD Question
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 12:29:20
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Afania said: »
I highly highly doubt a NQ Kaja war won't even do 1/5 dps of a geared DD. I'm not seeing it based on my experience with the weapon. That weapon just has extremely high floor.
Well, if you put in the caveats of can't WS, can't DD, only give Warcry (without merits). Then you can really compare the two (WAR vs. rolls only COR).

Or if you want to go against the DD BRD, just only WS after they do, sure, your WS rate will go down, but at least it will be "fair".
 
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 12:45:16
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Asura.Memes said: »
Is anyone really reading these essays?
Yes.

They are responding to it, of course.

Comprehending it is a different question though.
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By Afania 2020-09-21 12:49:56
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will generally rather go on compromise of taking roll only cor instead of waiting another 20 minutes.

So Baniak, what server do you play on exactly? Because on my server I've never seen any pt that just sit there shouting for a COR or DD for 20 min, unable to find one, the proceed shout for roll only cor specifically because they are desperate to get the last member.

If such server exist I'd love to go there. DDing on cor is too hard for me, so I'm looking for a group that invite me to their party as a roll only cor :(

Serious.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 13:05:41
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Afania said: »
Quote:
will generally rather go on compromise of taking roll only cor instead of waiting another 20 minutes.

So Baniak, what server do you play on exactly? Because on my server I've never seen any pt that just sit there shouting for a COR or DD for 20 min, unable to find one, the proceed shout for roll only cor specifically because they are desperate to get the last member.

If such server exist I'd love to go there. DDing on cor is too hard for me, so I'm looking for a group that invite me to their party as a roll only cor :(

Serious.

Equally serious, on both a smaller server and a larger server I have never seen a shout group lament over a lack of Corsair. WHM, GEO, BRD...definitely. Tank- often. But COR? Man, that slot is filled faster than you'll run outta bullets on Schah.
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By Mattelot 2020-09-21 13:08:53
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Nariont said: »
Mattelot said: »
Asura.Sirris said: »
Please don't advise people to do this. We have enough horrible red mages buying Su5 and fumbling through content. RDM is a huge gear investment as well and you are expected to perform a broad range of roles in party/alliance play.

Are there really that many bad SU5 RDM on Asura? I know only a few RDM on Levi who use SU5 and they're all good. Being such a huge gear-intense job, I cannot imagine anyone spending that much money on Crocea only to be a failure.

You underestimate the stupidity of asuras CC warriors, who only know rdm is good and cocea is good, no idea why this is, just that it is

That type of player, I'm well familiar with. I remember when I was a top Ninja in the 75 era. I was one of the few who had Unji/Unsho and knew why they were good and how. One guy who used to /check me all the time got them one day and said "look, I got those too!" I said "do you know why they're good?" He said "yeah because they're expensive!" :facepalm

I guess Asura must be more prominent with those types of players than Levi.
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By Nariont 2020-09-21 13:20:16
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its everywhere sure but, one of the highest pops so youll see it a whole lot more, best ones are the ones who use enspell II, cause, well its II so its gotta be the better one.
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By Mattelot 2020-09-21 13:24:26
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Nariont said: »
its everywhere sure but, one of the highest pops so youll see it a whole lot more, best ones are the ones who use enspell II, cause, well its II so its gotta be the better one.

That's always been one of the stranger aspects of FFXI compared to other MMOs. For a game as old as it is, there are still a lot of guides out there that give incorrect information or some information isn't quite clear.

I probably couldn't blame all for the En* I and II thing. Why would a II be made worse than a I? I can see someone maybe not knowing.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 13:29:44
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Mattelot said: »
Nariont said: »
its everywhere sure but, one of the highest pops so youll see it a whole lot more, best ones are the ones who use enspell II, cause, well its II so its gotta be the better one.

That's always been one of the stranger aspects of FFXI compared to other MMOs. For a game as old as it is, there are still a lot of guides out there that give incorrect information or some information isn't quite clear.

I probably couldn't blame all for the En* I and II thing. Why would a II be made worse than a I? I can see someone maybe not knowing.

They were never designed to be better at damage than tier I enspells. It takes looking at their introduction paired with the existing role of RDM at that time. RDM melee was not a viable part of endgame due to lack of Composure and gear with enough accuracy to manage it. Enspell II spells' "gimmick" is how they reduce magical resistance to the corresponding weak element to the enspell II being used. example- use enfire II to reduce ice resistance, so paralyze lands easier. They don't proc on multiattacks, and their strength is determined by +enspell or +enhancing magic gear worn at the TIME OF THE SWING, not the TIME OF THE CASTING. They were never designed to be the main "DD enspell option", they were designed to assist in casting duties.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-21 13:39:00
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Afania said: »
If I'm lving a new character I'm *** not going to lv cor to 99, go all the way out to farm hat and seals just to roll then ditch the job after a few days, it's not worth it. It's much more efficient to start gearing the main job right away. As long as your main job is Kaja friendly DD that is.

Its never a waste of time to 99 COR, because its the fastest job to make missions (bolters roll), which will save you tons of time. It's also fantastic job for many assaults and probably one of the easiest to make job to AoE Einherjar. Its also a good back up (roll only I mean) for event where your main job cant go (there is always few events like that including some abuscades).

Afania said: »
More like 21k -22k in +1 set depending on whether you finish wotg for the earrings, that's with wsd ambu back too. I actually opened spreadsheet to check this.
Decimation is a 30k WS in NQ Argosy, doesn't even need 2nd ambu back.

Not sure why you compare damage of COR vs damage of WAR? 2 additional rolls on bis DD, ddBRD and another 3 chars will produce more damage overall that WAR at six slot probably and FOR SURE more if you add damage of earlier described SB COR on top of gains of other 5 other chars. Thats assuming its not far more beneficial to solo skillchain on fully buffed bis DD, in which case your WAR wont add any damage because it will only lower it (yes even if you include him in chain, it wont be better if he is not very well geared), while two additional rolls will definitely add a lot. Its not even a contest if that roll only COR is the only COR in the party in which case 2 rolls provided by him will produce more damage on 5 chars (or one solo skillchainer) than nq WAR instead of that COR.


Afania said: »
Because on my server I've never seen any pt that just sit there shouting for a COR or DD for 20 min
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Equally serious, on both a smaller server and a larger server I have never seen a shout group lament over a lack of Corsair. WHM, GEO, BRD...definitely. Tank- often. But COR? Man, that slot is filled faster than you'll run outta bullets on Schah.

Have you seen people shouting for nq Argosy kaja axe WAR with no JP, no relic/AF+3 and in +1 Ambu TP set? I doubt it. The point is that anyone having trouble filling the 6th slot for VD, will take roll only COR over nq War described above, or should I say anyone beside Afania trying to prove her point maybe.

Afania said: »
I'd gladly parse against your blonde BRD on my NQ argosy Kaja WAR with 700 JP. If you can do twice more dmg than me I'll give you a cookie.

First of all you are very experienced player and your mechanical skill is far better than any new player, so you would make up a lot of damage just with that (which is another point I had, roll only cor doesnt require mechanical skills). Second of all farming 700JP for new players will take tons of time outside of campaign and you just wrote about farming +1 head from dynamis being time consuming, when it takes like 1h maybe if you are unlucky.

Afania said: »
Not useful no. Not when 100 other people want a 2nd DD slot on a geared cor or on another DD.

Do you really expect to have more chance to join group on NQ argosy, +1 ambu, kaja axe WAR with no JP than on roll only COR? Both will have low chance, but there is far more beneficial to take bis mastered DD over that WAR, than bis COR over roll COR.
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By Mattelot 2020-09-21 13:57:16
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Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
Mattelot said: »
Nariont said: »
its everywhere sure but, one of the highest pops so youll see it a whole lot more, best ones are the ones who use enspell II, cause, well its II so its gotta be the better one.

That's always been one of the stranger aspects of FFXI compared to other MMOs. For a game as old as it is, there are still a lot of guides out there that give incorrect information or some information isn't quite clear.

I probably couldn't blame all for the En* I and II thing. Why would a II be made worse than a I? I can see someone maybe not knowing.

They were never designed to be better at damage than tier I enspells. It takes looking at their introduction paired with the existing role of RDM at that time. RDM melee was not a viable part of endgame due to lack of Composure and gear with enough accuracy to manage it. Enspell II spells' "gimmick" is how they reduce magical resistance to the corresponding weak element to the enspell II being used. example- use enfire II to reduce ice resistance, so paralyze lands easier. They don't proc on multiattacks, and their strength is determined by +enspell or +enhancing magic gear worn at the TIME OF THE SWING, not the TIME OF THE CASTING. They were never designed to be the main "DD enspell option", they were designed to assist in casting duties.

That may be the case but those who were not around when they were introduced may not know that. They just see II and assume it's better than I, which isn't unrealistic to think. But if you tell someone that and they still don't listen, they may have issues.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 14:02:15
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Mattelot said: »
Leviathan.Celebrindal said: »
random enspell 2 info

That may be the case but those who were not around when they were introduced may not know that. They just see II and assume it's better than I, which isn't unrealistic to think. But if you tell someone that and they still don't listen, they may have issues.

Sure- but then again I wasn't around for the premiere of Beethoven's 3rd, but if I want to play it properly I need to know that the 2nd movement is actually a funeral march in honor of Napoleon.

If you want to either return to such an old game, or start it up after the fact this long, then its on you to read up on the old stuff. If you wanna play RDM, its on you to know when, how, and why to use the spells associated with it, not just see a 2 and think that its better than 1.

Its the same thing with BRD's carols- I and II have different base reasons behind them.
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By Mattelot 2020-09-21 14:08:15
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You're such a nerd lol

To learn a musical number requires time and training. To learn a new spell in FFXI just takes using a scroll.

Objectively, I can see it as an honest mistake someone coming back could make.

I mean, when I left, Blm had tier 4 spells. I came back and they have tier 6 spells. Logically, I will assume Fire VI is better than Fire IV, etc. Imagine if Fire V did Fire III damage and lowered the mob's defense to Fire? One thing that did trigger me to look closer was the "aja" spells versus "aga" spells.

You are right, you should read up on stuff. Depending on how far back you stopped playing, it can be overwhelming for the average person, the amount of things you won't know.

My only point is that average people can overlook certain things reasonably. Some of us are more attentive to detail and seemingly miss nothing.
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-21 14:13:14
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+1'ed for properly calling me a nerd.
 
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-21 18:52:04
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That must be some good ***you are on.
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By Asura.Friedrik 2020-09-21 19:06:17
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Asura.Memes said: »
Nothing is impossible. Inspiration is the truth of guidance, and of us. The solar system is approaching a tipping point. Imagine a maturing of what could be. It is in unfolding that we are aligned.

Curiosity requires exploration. This life is nothing short of a deepening quantum shift of intergalactic purpose. We exist, we grow, we are reborn.

If you have never experienced this osmosis at the quantum level, it can be difficult to exist. It can be difficult to know where to begin. How should you navigate this ancient solar system?

Reality has always been beaming with spiritual brothers and sisters whose lives are enveloped in aspiration. Throughout history, humans have been interacting with the quantum cycle via chaos-driven reactions. Who are we? Where on the great quest will we be awakened?

That's just my opinion anyway.

Anyway, here's Wonderwall
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By Afania 2020-09-21 22:13:38
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SimonSes said: »
Not sure why you compare damage of COR vs damage of WAR? 2 additional rolls on bis DD, ddBRD and another 3 chars

Trying too hard on this one. I thought you could do better than this.

DD, ddBRD(if you even have DD BRD), DD tank(bad dps if you use PLD or aetir RUN). That's increase for 3 person max. Not 2 DD+"3 other character". Can you even count anymore?

If your DD do 5k dps, brd 4k, tank 3k, that's 2400 dps from rolls. Still less than half of full DD DPS and plenty easy to surpass on Kaja war, BEFORE counting warcry bonus.

SimonSes said: »
but there is far more beneficial to take bis mastered DD over that WAR, than bis COR over roll COR.

Nope.

A BiS mastered DD is just a DD that does 30% more DPS than Kaja war. Maybe 40% more if that war is really really bad?

A BiS cor has full time CC, 3 more roll potency, ability to deal with any mechanics, ability to shoot for oh ***moment, magical damage....the list goes on.

A roll only cor only adds 1k dps on DD, less on brd and tank. My SB dps is 6k alone, the gap is several thousands, before counting the ranged benefit.

If you compare an ambu +1 DD cor with full BiS cor, maybe the benefit would have surpass the other group. Roll itself adds way less dps overall.


SimonSes said: »
Second of all farming 700JP for new players will take tons of time outside of campaign and you just wrote about farming +1 head from dynamis being time consuming, when it takes like 1h maybe if you are unlucky.

It's 5-8m gil and afk. Maybe 20min running to camp.

If I can pick between farm JP and abyssea seal/dynamis hat farm, I'm 100% picking JP lol. Not until people start mercing seals/dynamis drop.

SimonSes said: »
Its never a waste of time to 99 COR,

I have roll only cor on alt, leveled for the exact same reason as everyone else: wanting more pt opportunities with minimal investment. Years later it's proven to be a waste of time.

Between all of my (poorly geared) jobs, my roll cor was never picked by anyone when I offered it. The entire community simply despise it whenever they heard the term "roll only cor" like dog ***on the street. People just don't accept it. This theoretical situation where 5 other geared player gladly carry a roll only cor sit there and roll just never happen.

Once I even made a pt and put myself on cor spot just so that I can use my roll only cor for once. The run ended up being a disaster: roll cor simply doesn't carry enough "weight" in the party to change the tide of the battle. If something go wrong, there very little I can do to change that.

Ironically my REMA-less 3 song brd with minimal song+ gears were requested a many more times than roll only COR: in ranged pt, due to prelude x2 adding more accuracy than adding 3rd cor in the setup.

I never needed bolters roll on missions, because I have mazurka. It's not a cor only ability.

Should I even mention leveling marksmanship is WAY WORSE than lair reive afk leveling melee or even PUP pet combat skill?

If I could go back in time I wish I never take it to 99 and farmed the hat. It's a total waste of time to have a job that never get used. I should have just focus on gearing other jobs to begin with.

IDK why people insist roll only cor is some kind of magic key that help you get into endgame. Maybe you had good experiences with it because you are lucky with connections. But it doesn't apply to everyone.. You can keep your opinion if you want to, and I'm certainly not gonna feel guilty if next new guy level cor thinking the same thing and ended up feel like it's a waste of effort to level it.
 Fenrir.Surgator
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By Fenrir.Surgator 2020-09-21 22:24:43
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You guys see that the OP only ask 1 question and never really bother to come back give some feedback of what he want or is going to do and we still have a 8 pages arguement of people trying to bicker who is right and if he should go cor or no Cor?

there some reality we need to face!

If the person don't take time to answer back on is topic , it meant he wasn't that much invested to have answer or he already made is mind!
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2020-09-21 22:36:07
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Spoiler; none of them give a rats *** about OP, they just want a catalyst to do the same *** argument
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 Leviathan.Celebrindal
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2020-09-22 00:41:53
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
Spoiler; none of them give a rats *** about OP, they just want a catalyst to do the same *** argument


Not completely wrong, but there have been several mentions of other suggestions hidden between the walls o' text (of which I'm also personally guilty). People trying to suggest either ways to efficiently gear a DD while still being an asset, or DD jobs that become viable cheaper/faster.

I believe my own personal venom against "just level a roll COR" is concern for the OP in the sense that a roll only COR rarely is going to get a spot in pickup groups due to its current popularity, and the volume of fully functioning CORs, and I didn't want to assume the OP was simply gonna get carried for content.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-22 01:12:11
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Afania said: »
I never needed bolters roll on missions, because I have mazurka. It's not a cor only ability.

Mazurka is much worse. Its only 20% movement speed, while bolters is up to 40% (30% + is easy to get without trying). More if you expect longer run and use CC. Also if you dont setup lockstyle or setup weapon type change, you can cast it while blinking, so it doesnt require stoping at all. Mazurka is 4 sec casting time. If you dont actually play it and dont have fast cast for it, then its barely better than just running without loosing time to cast it on short distances. Dnc would be much better here because it has 20% too, can blink too and it doesnt wear between zones.

Afania said: »
It's 5-8m gil and afk. Maybe 20min running to camp.

Lol.. do you really suggest new player to make JP by mercing? I guess we can stop arguing here XD btw according to shouts im blisting from time to time its 10m per 500jp or 40m per 2100, so 700 would be more like 14m.
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By Afania 2020-09-22 01:32:17
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SimonSes said: »
Mazurka is much worse. Its only 20% movement speed,

Losing a few % doesn't matter to me. Since movement speed is, for the most part, just a bonus. Not the main reason to make decision on.


SimonSes said: »
Lol.. do you really suggest new player to make JP by mercing? I guess we can stop arguing here

If that's the case then you shouldn't even join the conversation to begin with. Sell orb then merc was a point made pages back.

This entire "lv another DD job is totally viable in 2020" is obviously based on the fact that you can merc almost anything and everything cheaply, and get free gil simply just by logging in and click home point.

If merc isn't an option then yeah, I'd say cor is much better starting job. But that has changed and there isn't only 1 path to gear up anymore. Starting as cor is no longer an overwhelmingly better choice than other options.

I'm pretty sure I've seen lower price than 10m per 500JP during campaign on bigger server. Sellers can undercut.
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By kasnuaku 2020-09-22 02:22:15
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bard, everyone wants to play DD. Forever bard....
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By Mattelot 2020-09-22 05:40:54
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Fenrir.Surgator said: »
You guys see that the OP only ask 1 question and never really bother to come back give some feedback of what he want or is going to do and we still have a 8 pages arguement of people trying to bicker who is right and if he should go cor or no Cor?

there some reality we need to face!

If the person don't take time to answer back on is topic , it meant he wasn't that much invested to have answer or he already made is mind!

Could be, or it could be that they don't live on the forums like many people do. Or they could have seen what answer they were looking for and didn't feel it necessary to drag the discussion out, especially when you start seeing people bicker.
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By Odin.Senaki 2020-09-22 06:22:40
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kasnuaku said: »
bard, everyone wants to play DD. Forever bard....

Oh cool, you play Brd? You have a DD set... right?
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-22 06:49:32
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SimonSes said: »
Dnc would be much better here because it has 20% too, can blink too and it doesnt wear between zones.
DNC animation can't be blinked through normal means, afaik. It's a "long animation", those animations bind you on the ground even if you attempt to blink by swapping gear multiple times.
DNC mazurka is nice but it has a very short duration. Can get it to ~3 mins max. There is more Jig duration gear than that, but the Jig Duration bonus is sadly capped at a max of 50%.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2020-09-22 08:23:27
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Odin.Senaki said: »
kasnuaku said: »
bard, everyone wants to play DD. Forever bard....

Oh cool, you play Brd? You have a DD set... right?
I'm not going to lie, I have a standard 4 song BRD and I absolutely refuse to get a DD set for it.

I already have other jobs that I can come as DDs, if you want my BRD, I'm singing/afking. No joke.

My shell/statics know this too, and frankly, they don't care. They are just happy to have buffs tbh, and rather not have somebody feeding TP to the mobs.
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By SimonSes 2020-09-22 09:16:20
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Asura.Sechs said: »
SimonSes said: »
Dnc would be much better here because it has 20% too, can blink too and it doesnt wear between zones.
DNC animation can't be blinked through normal means, afaik. It's a "long animation", those animations bind you on the ground even if you attempt to blink by swapping gear multiple times.
DNC mazurka is nice but it has a very short duration. Can get it to ~3 mins max. There is more Jig duration gear than that, but the Jig Duration bonus is sadly capped at a max of 50%.

I think I was able to do it few times but that might be just my high ping. Anyway COR is best anyway. You can blink, its way faster and you can also use tactician to have TP ready for every random fight and finish it in 1sec. I understand you can argue about roll only COR as starting job, but arguing against COR usefulness for missions and assaults and pointing illogical things like using BRD instead is pointless. BRD is much worse for it and you would also need to level it, not to mention unlocking COR is way faster and unlocking COR actually have another benefit of Wild Card. There is not even room for debate here and I lost enough time already.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-09-22 09:26:14
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I couldn't agree more honestly.
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