Holding Hate

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Holding Hate
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By Taint 2017-05-11 09:23:09
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I just returned after a 3.5 year stint with 14.

Obviously a lot has changed. (I MTed on WAR/DRK/SAM/MNK back then)

I'm trying to wrap my head around the new enmity system in terms of what should a PLD be doing on high lvl content.

What is the order of operation for the pull and then later the maintenance. My issues seem to be holding hate over time as the DPS are putting out huge numbers.

My current plan is:

Prepull - Phalanx, Crusade, Enlight

Flash > Sent > voke.

Voke/Flash on CD.

If I can't hit the mob, I'm using a cure cheat (does 659 for IV).

In DT gear my hit rate is low, in acc gear I feel squishy. I was about to upgrade my AF119 body to +2 but noticed it had no ACC.

Am I doing it wrong? How do you keep hate off huge DPS burst?

Thanks in advance!
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 Asura.Neufko
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By Asura.Neufko 2017-05-11 09:36:49
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you're doing nothing wrong imo.

When everyone has hate capped, I see no way you can keep it full time.

I'm sure you'll get more detailed answers from Tanks, but in situations where DDs are going all out, I don't think there's a magic way.
 Shiva.Spynx
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-05-11 09:38:06
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You don't keep hate by dealing damage as it's not realistic that you can even come close to average DDs. Your main way to keep hate is to take as little dmg as possible (that's why having capped DT and a good shield block rate is huge) while using hate generating abilities/spell.

Unfortunately there are no updated enmity tables as far as I know but the BG wiki page gives you an idea of main concepts.

Also consider that many endgame NMs are able to reset hate so if you go voke>sentinel>flash in 5 secs and the mob resets enmity, you will have an hard time getting it back. I always try to save sentinel/rampart/shield bash for these situations while alternating voke/flash to generate and maintain hate over time
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 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2017-05-11 10:01:46
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Welcome back Taint. I usually save Sentinel as Flash and Voke is enough for me (~125enm). Like Spynx mentioned with hate reset, it's nice to save JAs for those moments, or even to spread them out to maintain hate. Don't worry about being able to hit, it's not going to happen. Just worry about capping your -DT first thing and work your sets from there (capping Haste, ENM build, Phalanx, Fast Cast etc.)
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By Taint 2017-05-11 10:21:04
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Interesting. So literally stack DT, emnity and HP?

So between flashes and vokes do you spam a cure cheat?

When I have TP CDC or atonement? (AG excal for now, working on Burt)
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2017-05-11 10:31:02
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That's what I usually do, and Fast Cast when needed. I don't spam a curecheat, you should have enough of a recast on Flash that you shouldn't need it. I usually Atonement at 3k for Burtgang aftermath then just Savage Blade. A lot of weapon skills got a boost, Savage Blade being one of them, and on PLD I do more with a STR/weapon skill damage build than I do with CDC. Honestly it all depends on the scenario, most of the time I never get melee buffs, but if I'm tanking lower content and I'm able to melee effectively, I'll use a DD/hybrid set and CDC.

I've always told people starting out on PLD that you're there to keep hate and mitigate damage, so focus on that and gear from there.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-11 10:52:38
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Stack DT, enmity, and HP to stay alive. The enmity is a side bonus(not sure exactly when you left, but they changed idle enmity+ to effect enmity loss). You don't really have to worry that much about hate lost from damage taken, but being realistic your damage dealt doesn't matter.

If you find your hate tools aren't enough to hold hate, there are a few things to keep in mind.

Is the content lower than clevel 130? Anything below 130 will be extremely difficult to reliably hold hate on vs competent DD. Even with the increased hate cap, they will be able to cap in under a minute leaving you in a best case scenario of spinning the mob around.

Is the content in an area besides Adoulin, Escha, and legion? The enmity adjustment actually only effects the 3 gaes fete zones, legion, and adoulin areas. Many monsters in old areas are technically level 99 with inflated stats. As a result, old areas will allow DD to cap hate in seconds and make tanking nearly impossible. Tumult curator is a bit easier than the rest because of it's levelhow high it's stats are, but the same problem still exists.

If the content is c130+ and in an appropriate area, then it is in your control. Cure cheats help a bit, but if you're having severe difficulty you're best off investing in a top notch high HP FC set(you don't want to drop from 3000 hp to 2000 every time you cast, which is the case when you use souveran). Subbing BLU gives you access to cocoon(obviously), blank gaze(single target low recast and decent hate), as well as soporific/sheep song/geist wall for aoe hate and jettatura for cone. Rotating through these spells will allow you to keep enmity capped on anything even if your gear is a bit suboptimal.

In regards to the high hp FC set, ideal would be something like this:
ItemSet 341806

Obviously ideal isn't necessary to function, but you want in the range of 60-80 FC with 1000+ hp. Some people don't like swapping shields, but vampirism/nibiru is an easy 14 FC and 80 HP if you aren't using your TP. It helps a ton in my opinion, and I rarely find myself needing chivalry these days with most fights refilling your MP.
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By veddertehtaco 2017-05-11 10:56:07
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Also bare in mind old zone hate mechanics function differently to SOA/ilvl zones too eg dd will cap hate faster in old zones

Welcome back bro, game needs its old school pros to come back and have fun again

Im on levi but feel free to ask questions, the community at large is pretty good now
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By veddertehtaco 2017-05-11 10:57:55
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Lol cab beat me to it
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-05-11 11:24:23
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
The enmity adjustment actually only effects the 3 gaes fete zones, legion, and adoulin areas. Old areas will allow DD to cap hate in seconds and make tanking nearly impossible.
Wait.. What?

I'd like to see your sources for that info. And which enmity adjustments exactly are you referring to.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-11 11:48:42
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When they tripled the enmity cap and altered the formula for hate gain from damage, it never applied to old areas. It's extremely visible on unity mobs. Don't recall the source or if it was ever explicitly stated by SE, but it's very easy to observe and I've seen it posted so many places I assumed it was known to be fact.

Fights like Tumult Curator and the prior cerb/khim/hydra are the easiest to see the difference. On a typical i145 mob like Seiryu or Rei T3, RNG will never pull hate. A PLD in half decent gear doing flash/voke at timer is all you need. The same RNG, at capped pdif in both scenarios, will cap hate on Tumult in 2 minutes of shooting with decoy up and annihilator. The same is true at 130, RNG can potentially pull hate on the reisenjima targets, but will pull it almost instantly on the unity ones.
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-11 11:54:37
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Taint said: »
I just returned after a 3.5 year stint with 14.

Obviously a lot has changed. (I MTed on WAR/DRK/SAM/MNK back then)

I'm trying to wrap my head around the new enmity system in terms of what should a PLD be doing on high lvl content.

What is the order of operation for the pull and then later the maintenance. My issues seem to be holding hate over time as the DPS are putting out huge numbers.

My current plan is:

Prepull - Phalanx, Crusade, Enlight

Flash > Sent > voke.

Voke/Flash on CD.

If I can't hit the mob, I'm using a cure cheat (does 659 for IV).

In DT gear my hit rate is low, in acc gear I feel squishy. I was about to upgrade my AF119 body to +2 but noticed it had no ACC.

Am I doing it wrong? How do you keep hate off huge DPS burst?

Thanks in advance!
Its easy street for PLDs and RUNs now Taint.
Nothing compared to what a ball busting challenge it used to be to hold hate against heavy hitters.
On most mobs, as PLD, I can do the following and afk in full souveran+1 gear:
Pre- Crusade/Phalanx/Enlight
Pull- Agro/Shield Bash
Cap Hate and AFK - Sentinel->voke->warcry->rampart->divine emblem->flash->reprisal->Atonement to show the PT my hate is high.
Come back 5 minutes. WHM bot has kept me alive, mob is down to 50%, say "I'm here not afk". Toss a flash and afk again.

PLD is in the best spot it has ever been.
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By Blazed1979 2017-05-11 11:55:24
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Taint said: »
So between flashes and vokes do you spam a cure cheat?
no =( , those days are gone.

On WS's - it depends on what you're fighting and your accuracy sets. On end-game junk mobs my CDC can hit 20-25k depending on buffs I have. 10-11K without. on most bosses 5-10k.
Savage Blade has also become a PLD staple.
Atonement is only used on stuff and times you can't be caught with your pants down (switching to ws gear at wrong time might = death or close to it). But that's rare. Only Helm T4s is where you should really worry and maybe some T3's.

Shield wise Aegis 75-85% of the time.
In Omen you're pretty safe to use Ochain on all pulls. When you get to the bosses switch to Aegis.

Playing tank in FFXIV will help you on your way in FFXI as you re-familiarise yourself. Ambuscade and Omen require a lot of hate control, which is something FFXIV tanks have become accustomed to.

Glad you're back teacher. I'm not on cerberus anymore or I would spend my free time catching you up and helping you gear so that I could parse against you like VW old times.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-05-11 12:00:22
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
When they tripled the enmity cap and altered the formula for hate gain from damage, it never applied to old areas. It's extremely visible on unity mobs. Don't recall the source or if it was ever explicitly stated by SE, but it's very easy to observe and I've seen it posted so many places I assumed it was known to be fact.

Fights like Tumult Curator and the prior cerb/khim/hydra are the easiest to see the difference. On a typical i145 mob like Seiryu or Rei T3, RNG will never pull hate. A PLD in half decent gear doing flash/voke at timer is all you need. The same RNG, at capped pdif in both scenarios, will cap hate on Tumult in 2 minutes of shooting with decoy up and annihilator. The same is true at 130, RNG can potentially pull hate on the reisenjima targets, but will pull it almost instantly on the unity ones.
Except that ilevel unity NMs are actually lvl 99. Tested via widescan packet. So are Merit BC mobs.

I've also tested Aegis block rate on VD Avatar merit BCs and got a block rate consistent with about a lvl 100 mob. turns out I was 1 level off.

The amount of enmity gain from damage drops rather dramatically as monster level increases. It's damned hard to keep hate on level 99 mobs.

Did you have any other evidence for this claim?

In any case, I'll probably do an enmity cap test when I get home, even though it's a pain in the ***.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-11 12:01:11
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In retrospect, it could be that unity and HTBF monsters are all flagged as level 99 internally. It'd be more accurate to say that unity and HTBF treat enmity differently in regards to their level, since those are the only post-99 content in old areas.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-05-11 13:48:45
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They're not just flagged as level 99, they are level 99. And have the combat skills to match, as shown by my shield test. Presumably SE just added massive stat/acc/atk/eva/meva etc bonuses to them after that.

I can only assume that this was SE's way of getting around level correction still existing in the old zones. Cause seriously, if they made a lvl 150 mob in the old zones we'd be ***. 51 levels of correction would be brutal. The acc penalties... And CRatio would be in the floor somewhere...
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By veddertehtaco 2017-05-11 14:05:06
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From what I've gleaned from vsrious sources here is that yes they are lvl99 with super beefed stats and that as such the enmity caps rather quickly for dd's, not sure of the actual mechanics at play but thats why i generally apoc tank things in those situations
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-05-11 15:18:11
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
When they tripled the enmity cap and altered the formula for hate gain from damage, it never applied to old areas. It's extremely visible on unity mobs. Don't recall the source or if it was ever explicitly stated by SE, but it's very easy to observe and I've seen it posted so many places I assumed it was known to be fact.

Fights like Tumult Curator and the prior cerb/khim/hydra are the easiest to see the difference. On a typical i145 mob like Seiryu or Rei T3, RNG will never pull hate. A PLD in half decent gear doing flash/voke at timer is all you need. The same RNG, at capped pdif in both scenarios, will cap hate on Tumult in 2 minutes of shooting with decoy up and annihilator. The same is true at 130, RNG can potentially pull hate on the reisenjima targets, but will pull it almost instantly on the unity ones.
Except that ilevel unity NMs are actually lvl 99. Tested via widescan packet. So are Merit BC mobs.

I've also tested Aegis block rate on VD Avatar merit BCs and got a block rate consistent with about a lvl 100 mob. turns out I was 1 level off.

The amount of enmity gain from damage drops rather dramatically as monster level increases. It's damned hard to keep hate on level 99 mobs.

Did you have any other evidence for this claim?

In any case, I'll probably do an enmity cap test when I get home, even though it's a pain in the ***.
not exactly the same, but auto hate is crap on all the same targets that he's talking about. I can quickly take hate off auto on unity and battlefield fights without even focusing on my own damage, just autos where in post seeker areas I can practically afk and tank most things.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-05-11 16:04:47
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That's for exactly the reason I'm stating.

It's a *** to keep hate vs DD on lvl 99 mobs. And Unity mobs, and merit BC mobs, are lvl 99, with boosted stats.

In SoA, the weakest mobs start at LVL 100 and go up form there. Anything worth tanking is gonna be at least lvl 120~+ if not higher. And that level difference counts for a ton in terms of dmg to enmity ratio.

Dmg dealt enmity has been nerfed multiple times. 3? I think? Although I can only find 2 atm.

Feb 18, 2014 (JST) Version Update
Quote:
Enmity generated from dealing damage has been adjusted.
Enmity generated from dealing damage to enemies of level 100 or greater no longer accumulates as quickly.
This nerf in particular only affected mobs of lvl 100 or greater. So our merit BC and UNM mobs were exempt.

Then there was this one,
Mar 26, 2015 (JST) Version Update
Quote:
Enmity Adjustments

*The enmity cap has been tripled.

The amount of enmity gained by dealing damage has been lowered.
* Enmity generated by healing remains the same.

Enmity will now decrease based on the gap between player/pet level/item level and monster level.
* Abilities that generate a fixed amount of enmity, such as healing magic and elemental magic, are exempt from this change.
Note the third point. Additional decrease for level gap between player/ilvl and the mob level. Now they don't state it, but I'd assume that means when the mob is higher lever than you, not lower.

All of this means that DD enmity generation is huge on lower level mobs, and gets smaller and smaller as mob level rises. And since we know that all the ilvl content in old areas, happens to have lvl 99 mobs... On the other hand, the enmity generating action used by tanks, and I assume Puppets, doesn't rely on dmg dealt, but static enmity action. So tanks have an enmity advantage on high level mobs, but fall behind as mob level drops to the lower range.

So it's not that the changes are zone specific. But that mob level greatly influences enmity generation via dmg. I also don't see any reason to assume that the CE/VE caps differ by zone.
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By veddertehtaco 2017-05-11 16:56:01
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Thanks martel thats a great summary
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-05-11 17:04:58
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
That's for exactly the reason I'm stating.

It's a *** to keep hate vs DD on lvl 99 mobs. And Unity mobs, and merit BC mobs, are lvl 99, with boosted stats.

In SoA, the weakest mobs start at LVL 100 and go up form there. Anything worth tanking is gonna be at least lvl 120~+ if not higher. And that level difference counts for a ton in terms of dmg to enmity ratio.

Dmg dealt enmity has been nerfed multiple times. 3? I think? Although I can only find 2 atm.

Feb 18, 2014 (JST) Version Update
Quote:
Enmity generated from dealing damage has been adjusted.
Enmity generated from dealing damage to enemies of level 100 or greater no longer accumulates as quickly.
This nerf in particular only affected mobs of lvl 100 or greater. So our merit BC and UNM mobs were exempt.

Then there was this one,
Mar 26, 2015 (JST) Version Update
Quote:
Enmity Adjustments

*The enmity cap has been tripled.

The amount of enmity gained by dealing damage has been lowered.
* Enmity generated by healing remains the same.

Enmity will now decrease based on the gap between player/pet level/item level and monster level.
* Abilities that generate a fixed amount of enmity, such as healing magic and elemental magic, are exempt from this change.
Note the third point. Additional decrease for level gap between player/ilvl and the mob level. Now they don't state it, but I'd assume that means when the mob is higher lever than you, not lower.

All of this means that DD enmity generation is huge on lower level mobs, and gets smaller and smaller as mob level rises. And since we know that all the ilvl content in old areas, happens to have lvl 99 mobs... On the other hand, the enmity generating action used by tanks, and I assume Puppets, doesn't rely on dmg dealt, but static enmity action. So tanks have an enmity advantage on high level mobs, but fall behind as mob level drops to the lower range.

So it's not that the changes are zone specific. But that mob level greatly influences enmity generation via dmg. I also don't see any reason to assume that the CE/VE caps differ by zone.
That makes sense, I wasn't aware that all the mobs added after seekers to old areas was level 99, though. But considering it was something I only noticed in old areas, I don't think it was an unreasonable assumption.
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By Valefor.Agentbling 2017-05-11 18:41:04
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One thing I think worth mention since it's a more recent gearing option; hitting 100% spell interrupt (102 gear/merits) is pretty easy without a lot of sacrifice now. I really like it as /blu for enmity because I can spam blank gaze between flash without any pause or worry of timing/shield blocks. If you have mulitple targets, you can use all of the AoE /blu spells w/o having to get them in front of you also.
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