Should I Make A Death Penalty Or Liberator?

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Should I make a Death Penalty or Liberator?
 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2016-07-12 21:44:59
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I dare say that that can quite likely give you better numbers than the 30% DP gives. (Or at the VERY least so comparable that it's the same.)

It doesn't.
 Asura.Galahadx
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By Asura.Galahadx 2016-07-12 21:50:39
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FaeQueenCory said: »
Higher base damage AND +50 AGI... That's a massive boost to Leaden Salute (screw Wildfire, ain't no use except for fire damage and AM).
I dare say that that can quite likely give you better numbers than the 30% DP gives. (Or at the VERY least so comparable that it's the same.)

Weapon/bullet damage doesn't affect magical WSs. DP pulls well ahead of Armageddon for Leaden, even if you use DP's bullets with an Arma. The AGI definitely does help narrow the gap though.
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By Verda 2016-07-12 22:32:21
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Shiva.Eightball said: »
You must not play with many good cors, as a main cor i have consistently done far more dmg than every average player i end up with, just the other day i was helping a friend mess around in lowman delve with his AG relic Gax war, in the end he was only aprox 5-10% higher than i was in total dmg(45%ish vs 55%ish) and all i had was molybdosis. just like how every job has its places where it shines cor has its moments, comming into a cor thread to say cor just does its rolls and sits there sounds more like a troll( or you really shouldn't be playing it). Cor is not like geo, there are no setups i know of where Geo is your main DD, however i have been THE main DD in many events including a SR run where i did aprox 80-90% of the total dmg.

All you're really saying is that you're better than the average player you party with, SR isn't hard content it can be solo'd with trusts. I've known afterglow users that won't use either equipsets or gearswap and their damage is always incredibly poor. Damage parsers take context too, over 20 or so runs a THF much less geared than me will sometimes win in dps, but the rest the runs I'll do 40% more to double their damage. Fights are short, missing 3 seconds can mean I didn't get off another stacked WS just before the mob died anyway.

If me coming in here and talking about RNG is trollish then Afania going into almost every RNG thread and talking about COR is also and trust me I'm sick of it too, he posted in the trueflight thread more than most RNG, to be fair he posts in most forums but the point stands. That said, I wouldn't feel the need to post about this here, if I didn't feel there was an extreme amount of misinformation about COR, reinforced and exemplified by your post, being dumped into Ranger discussion on the RNG forum. I've played with DP COR, and COR very enthusiastic about the dps portion of the support dps job that is COR, one with an Aeonic gun. I never said COR just stands around except for the master trial example but even then it rolled. If it was doing its job more properly it would've subbed rdm, dia II and double light shot for 20% more def down than they had that fight, but he didn't. He stood there. It can be a lot of work keeping up multiple rolls as 11, quickdrawing the right time, backup healing, and switching parties and job resetting people at the right time as needed.

It doesn't take a lot of math or common sense to see the tools COR has for damage and support compared to primary DD. That doesn't mean COR can't get a lot from the support dps aspect of their job, or shouldn't. The line is crossed when people talk about COR like you are right now because it's spreading misinformation. I've been in delve runs the GEO as 60% of the party DPS. Does that mean GEO is a better dps job than BLM? No, it's the same sort of one off ancedotal evidence so many COR use. It just means the BLM they partied with are not very well geared or just not great players. Gear differences alone can multiply differences in damage several times over, so yes COR will do more damage than main DD, if the main DD aren't good. That's kind of how the game is supposed to work. I can also confirm with myself, much reisenjima gear works for THF RNG and COR all three, as well as gear from much of the rest of the game. DPSing on COR is a real struggle in comparison, even with the same gun, even to just it stuff with the same buffs and support as I had. And if you read my first post you'll find LOTS of reasons why that is true.

COR's main reason to be taken to anything, is support. Its secondary role is dps. That's how it's used in endgame, and most the game. There's a lot more COR out that take dps seriously on their support than GEO, BRD, RDM, and RUN but there are people that min max that as well, to great effect even. None of that changes the fact most LS use COR for job ability resets, rolls and quickdraw or ask GEO not to magic burst so they don't reduce the BLM damage. Taking support that have offensive abilities to low and mid game content, great do it. It can be effective. Just don't go around saying you beat primary DD dps, especially on every other job forum, especially if you don't want people coming into your job forum giving you a very long list of reasons why it's misinformed and wrong. And if you do happen to just be exceptionally overpowered, here's a tip, keep it to yourself unless you want bandwagoners and hundreds of people crying out to nerf your job on the official forums and eventually getting it. BST and THF had similar treatment lately, though to be honest if it is that overpowered, it won't be a secret for long and that will likely happen anyway.

You know what I'd like? To be able to discuss ranger, on the ranger forum, without people coming in and saying play COR instead and giving a ton of one off comments or misinformation to boot. I play both, and given that RNG needs COR to maximize its potential dps with samurai roll and NO other job in the game can give it that, I'd say they should stop squaring off. But I know that's far too much to ask and probably tomorrow someone else will make some stupid one off comment about RNG is a dead job on the COR forum and saying a bunch of stuff that isn't true about COR. So, maybe it is a bit trollish to come in here, and talk about RNG. If none of the rest of that existed or happened or is going on, it definitely would be. But even if you aren't a party to what is going on, posts like yours encourage it, and I don't even expect my posts to stop or change it. Just don't expect me to stay quiet about it or try to correct the misinformation at the least, the people largely saying that don't actually know much anything about RNG, making an informative post about RNG and comparing it to COR since that is what people are doing in the RNG forum without any good information, unasked for, isn't the trollish thing here. If what I said hasn't made any impact on your view, I doubt it will any time soon if ever, so I'll quit this thread since it's unwelcomed, just spare Ranger forum the same courtesy if you please.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-07-12 22:38:54
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FaeQueenCory said: »
Sylph.Oraen said: »
Armageddon does have benefits that DP does not provide. Firstly, it has much higher base damage, making it a better gun for Last Stand. The 50 AGI also contributes approximately 37 ranged accuracy, of which DP has none. To my understanding, Armageddon and Fomalhaut are quite close for the second best Leaden Salute gun. They both also have the advantage of being used on RNG as well as COR.

Wildfire is not a bad WS. With good gear, it's actually quite competitive. But on anything that doesn't resist darkness, Leaden just outshines it. 100% AGI mod against 60%, and Leaden damage scales exceptionally well with TP, where Wildfire has an enmity- effect for TP scaling. Leaden also has access to powerful affinity based items, Pixie +1 and Archon ring, where Wildfire does not outside of elemental staves.

Both weaponskills have their uses, but if all things are equal, Leaden will come out on top.
One other thing to point out, all ranged magic WSs are weird.
You see, in WS damage formula there's a Δstat term. For physical it's always what we call ƒSTR (hence why stacking STR in STR based WSs is triple goodness).
For magic, with few exception, it's always some form of ƒINT.
Except for ranged magical WSs.
For some ungodly reason SE decided those should be pAGI-tINT.
Meaning that adding AGI for WSs like Wildfire and Leaden Salute is doubly effective. (As they don't benefit from any additional acc as they are magical.)

Meaning that Armageddon can quite potentially out do Death Penalty.
At least in their "121" forms.
Lakshmi.Zerowone said: »
Laeden Salute is just so powerful of a magic weaponskill that Wildfire with Armageddon can't compare/compete with Death Penalty's 30% boost?
Higher base damage AND +50 AGI... That's a massive boost to Leaden Salute (screw Wildfire, ain't no use except for fire damage and AM).
I dare say that that can quite likely give you better numbers than the 30% DP gives. (Or at the VERY least so comparable that it's the same.)

Weapon and Ammo Damage mean jack ***for Magic WS's. The 50 AGI is nice but no where close to a 30% increase unless you are you naked. DP crush's Arma in Leaden Salute numbers, zero contest. Arma makes a good Last Stand gun though.
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By Afania 2016-07-12 23:07:56
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Verda said: »
If me coming in here and talking about RNG is trollish then Afania going into almost every RNG thread and talking about COR is also and trust me I'm sick of it too, he posted in the trueflight thread more than most RNG,


Holy ***at 2 walls of texts first bashing the job COR using 2014 RNG setup standard then bash me.

FYI, out of every RNG thread that I've posted, none of them bash the job like you did in last post. The first one I posted questioned some of your claim, in an attempt to start a legit discussion. The reason why I question it is because based on what you've posted, I had to assume you don't have experience playing both job in high level content mage setup thus had "blind spot" when you compare both jobs. I simply point out the fact that your attack/acc doesn't matter when you fight high lv target and rely on wings for tp.

If you go back and read that post of mine, my first sentence was "The short answer is you can't compare them".

What I posted in Trueflight sets thread is actually helpful to people. You asked how affinity works and I answered "All light magic attack bonus gears are affinity, just like pixie +1.
", I also provided gear advice on the waist/neck slot for gearing trueflight. If anything I'm actually helpful to RNGs.

Although I did mention people don't invite RNG to content in another thread, that's just stating community behavior. None of my posts bash RNG by saying the job does terrible DPS. Although I did question your claim about RNG v.s COR in mage setups, I actually didn't jump in and bash the job by saying "RNG can't DD it just can't!" like you did in this thread.

I also believe I didn't talk about COR in RNG thread. Someone else started RNG v.s COR discussion that's why I talk about it. I use leaden as an example when we had trueflight discussion but that's only because both WS has similar mod so the example can be applied when having a gear discussion.

If anything I think you just have a build in "RNG suck" filter that as long as someone post something about RNG you automatically change it into "bash RNG" posts in your mind, even though the poster didn't say a thing that's negative about it.
 Shiva.Eightball
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By Shiva.Eightball 2016-07-12 23:56:49
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it is not misinformation to say that corsair is a very capable DD in many situations, no cor doesn't get alot of DD related Traits however when you are the MAIN DD as it can be you use rolls to fill in what you need for the situation on top of the fact that they have THE MOST powerful Weapon Skill in the game(as long as the target doesn't resist magic/dark). telling ppl that cor is not good at DDing is misinformation, anyone who has played with my corsair will attest to how ridiculous cor output is. clearly you don't really like playing cor so you don't put much into it and don't get much out of it, you sound like someone who has done enough research to know how to make rolls effective and didn't bother with the rest of the job so you don't have any experience with cors who really take the job seriously, just because you were in a pt with a DP cor doesn't mean they were really good as i was with one with AG DP and i beat them by alot.

i would also like to note that i have never seen RNG bashing in cor thread, if anything i have seen rng support in here as ppl often give advice on gear with relation to cor and rng and make a point to mention gear thats effective for both to save space/time.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-07-13 01:00:23
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Verda said: »
It is often used to weaken another's statement or view without having to actually reply to it. It's not new to the internet it's existed forever. My question to Kyte was whether he was just trying to help correct for the point of accuracy, or if he had other reasons, and a valid question. The internet or how long I've been on it have nothing to do with anything. Pedantry is easy, if used for that effect, but still dissapointing. If Kyte just likes accuracy though then I'm for that even appreciate him pointing it out, thank you Kyte.

Afania said: »
It is 3k yes, 3k is also *** easy to get since you can start with 3k and have pt member do wing rotations. Reisen T3 can't survive more than a couple of 200k to 300k sc, by the time you run out of wings it's already dead. If you go lowman, first burst can probably push below 50% hp.

Considering people make Idris for endgame all the time, or bandwagon almace which isn't used in endgame, I'm surprised DP isn't being bandwagon more.

That's cool Afania, my last question then is this viable on t4 as well? Albumen, Teles, WoC, and Schah would be the big bads you'd use death on, and before the fight is over those mobs run out of MP for aspir. When this happens, spamming TP wings for the BLM is one way you keep going. So my question is have you used it on those and if so what do you do for MP once the mobs run out of mp?

I've been involved in WoC where the SCH does a distortion and then the COR closes for 99999 + 99999 with BLM's that death on it. We stopped when our DP COR stopped playing, but it's absolutely a viable strategy if implemented correctly.
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By Afania 2016-07-16 16:00:15
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Also just for FYI, I parsed a few woc runs, based on parse results I think woc takes massively increased darkness sc dmg. Possibly x1.5 or higher than that. My sc dmg almost always outparse my ws+qd dmg combined. On this NM there is a pretty huge difference in terms of dmg output between cor doing distortion > leaden darkness with proper tp wings support, v.s cor that's not part of sc and just randomly free ws between nukes.
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