BST Balance Discussions

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BST Balance discussions
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-03 17:12:03
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Asura.Foreverj said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yes.

It's a melee.

And bst is better then blue mAge? I assume you will answer yes so all I can say is ok.

Easily. Run Wild is just that OP.

Shiva.Siviard said: »
The issue was that SE went at it the wrong way in a lot of our opinions

Of course, in your opinion they did, anything that would of made it more difficult for BST's to kill everything while eating Cheetos's and watching cat video's would of been a bad thing. Rangers argued the exact same things when they got the bat swung at them, and they had it FAR worse off. At that time everything was RNG spam, there wasn't anything that wasn't made easier by adding more RNG's. People complained, RNG's staunchly defending saying they were perfectly fine, just slightly OP and so on. Nerf bat got swung and swung hard, RNG's cried that it was unfair, that they were being persecuted and then everyone just forgot about them.

ScaevolaBahamut said: »
You can have competitive damage or superior survivability. They would either nerf your survivability or nerf your damage.

They are BST's, they have the right to being nearly immortal while shitting ridiculously high DPS every 10s.

ScaevolaBahamut said: »
The hilarious thing about BSTghazi is that this is probably the best actual fix I've seen proposed.

You could still play it the same as you did before if you were willing to ***Mulsums.

I was talking about player HP. Costing the BST (PetLevel x 3) every time their pet does something would of been far more accurate to how they play. They are essentially a SMN with 10s BP timers and zero MP cost. Their pets have far more HP and are much sturdier then the paper bags that SMN brings out.

I wasn't joking about the cheeto's and cat videos'. I was one of the GEO's who went along with the BST brigade to do stuff and you could hear them eating snacks and just watching TV and ***while spamming their ready macro and occasionally hitting the reward button. It was obscene how easy everything was to a BST brigade, they were effectively immortal unless they sucked hard core. Standing far back, well out of range, sending in the pet army and just spamming ready until it died, rinse-wash-repeat. Awhile back one of the BST defenders actually had the gall to use "but BST has to use pet accuracy food for our pet to hit high level stuff" as a reason BST was balanced. As thought somehow other melee's didn't have to use accuracy food to hit medium level stuff and high level stuff was just unhitable for them.

SE's nerf was sufficient to cause them to pay attention, and they absolutely hate that now. Now BST's need to balance risk vs reward, can't just sit in the back spamming ready. They have to time when to run in close, actually pay attention to what the NM is using and so forth. It's still an OP as *** job but at least it requires some skill and situational awareness. That is the part they loath the most, having to pay attention.
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 Asura.Foreverj
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 17:24:36
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Foreverj said: »
ScaevolaBahamut said: »
Yes.

It's a melee.

And bst is better then blue mAge? I assume you will answer yes so all I can say is ok.

Easily. Run Wild is just that OP.

Shiva.Siviard said: »
The issue was that SE went at it the wrong way in a lot of our opinions

Of course, in your opinion they did, anything that would of made it more difficult for BST's to kill everything while eating Cheetos's and watching cat video's would of been a bad thing. Rangers argued the exact same things when they got the bat swung at them, and they had it FAR worse off. At that time everything was RNG spam, there wasn't anything that wasn't made easier by adding more RNG's. People complained, RNG's staunchly defending saying they were perfectly fine, just slightly OP and so on. Nerf bat got swung and swung hard, RNG's cried that it was unfair, that they were being persecuted and then everyone just forgot about them.

ScaevolaBahamut said: »
You can have competitive damage or superior survivability. They would either nerf your survivability or nerf your damage.

They are BST's, they have the right to being nearly immortal while shitting ridiculously high DPS every 10s.

ScaevolaBahamut said: »
The hilarious thing about BSTghazi is that this is probably the best actual fix I've seen proposed.

You could still play it the same as you did before if you were willing to ***Mulsums.

I was talking about player HP. Costing the BST (PetLevel x 3) every time their pet does something would of been far more accurate to how they play. They are essentially a SMN with 10s BP timers and zero MP cost. Their pets have far more HP and are much sturdier then the paper bags that SMN brings out.

I wasn't joking about the cheeto's and cat videos'. I was one of the GEO's who went along with the BST brigade to do stuff and you could hear them eating snacks and just watching TV and ***while spamming their ready macro and occasionally hitting the reward button. It was obscene how easy everything was to a BST brigade, they were effectively immortal unless they sucked hard core. Standing far back, well out of range, sending in the pet army and just spamming ready until it died, rinse-wash-repeat. Awhile back one of the BST defenders actually had the gall to use "but BST has to use pet accuracy food for our pet to hit high level stuff" as a reason BST was balanced. As thought somehow other melee's didn't have to use accuracy food to hit medium level stuff and high level stuff was just unhitable for them.

SE's nerf was sufficient to cause them to pay attention, and they absolutely hate that now. Now BST's need to balance risk vs reward, can't just sit in the back spamming ready. They have to time when to run in close, actually pay attention to what the NM is using and so forth. It's still an OP as *** job but at least it requires some skill and situational awareness. That is the part they loath the most, having to pay attention.

Saevel joined the conversation. It's time to call it quits in this thread. I can't win against the great saevel. He's a force to be reckoned with when talking about how overpowered bst used to be or still is.
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By Titanfoo 2016-04-03 17:30:31
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As a bst i'm glad it happened, I don't know there is still to discuss. I'm glad the bandwagon is carrying blu's around now. Now we get to watch a bunch of ppl butcher a different job.

Why are ppl bandwagon blu's? hmmmmm this one is gonna be hard to figure out...
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By Quetzalcoatl.Excalin 2016-04-03 17:35:21
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Just like when they Bandwagon onto BST....they know its supposed to be an OP job....never mind 90% of them have no clue what is going on.
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 17:43:46
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Titanfoo said: »
As a bst i'm glad it happened, I don't know there is still to discuss. I'm glad the bandwagon is carrying blu's around now. Now we get to watch a bunch of ppl butcher a different job.

Why are ppl bandwagon blu's? hmmmmm this one is gonna be hard to figure out...

I don't bandwagon. I only play the jobs in demand. I take the time to master it before bringing it out in battle.
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 Asura.Masrur
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By Asura.Masrur 2016-04-03 17:54:27
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The ready range needs to be loosened up by a few yalms.

The reward range should be removed or doubled.

Why.....

Pet's AI and pathing can be so retarded at times that it's not about the Beastmasters skill/experience, it's about luck.
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By Afania 2016-04-03 18:15:02
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I swear BSTs are just hate magnet in FFXI.
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 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-04-03 18:21:42
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Afania said: »
I swear BSTs are just hate magnet in FFXI.
Dunno how a job no one gave a ***about for 10 years is a hate magnet.
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By Asura.Xijaah 2016-04-03 18:23:53
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Hey guys, I reckon it's not as shiny as your BLUs, but you know, if you really wanna play BST and you really really really wanna spam that cricket volley thing, you can still bring a SMN for alexander and have a full minute of spamming
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2016-04-03 18:43:37
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People really ought to stop trying to make equivalence with SMN too, yes SMN have a 30 sec minimum and MP requirements on Rage BP's but that's only a part of what the job can do. A huge part of SMN's repertoire is its support abilities, either directly applied to the party (Hastega2) or enfeebling targets into virtual inactivity (Mewling Lullaby spam).

Not to mention the frankly enormous damage that certain BP's can dish out...
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By Titanfoo 2016-04-03 19:20:12
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Asura.Foreverj said: »
Titanfoo said: »
As a bst i'm glad it happened, I don't know there is still to discuss. I'm glad the bandwagon is carrying blu's around now. Now we get to watch a bunch of ppl butcher a different job.

Why are ppl bandwagon blu's? hmmmmm this one is gonna be hard to figure out...

I don't bandwagon. I only play the jobs in demand. I take the time to master it before bringing it out in battle.

Bandwagon
To follow the group as it has the majority or a vast number of followers
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By Asura.Foreverj 2016-04-03 19:24:17
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Titanfoo said: »
Asura.Foreverj said: »
Titanfoo said: »
As a bst i'm glad it happened, I don't know there is still to discuss. I'm glad the bandwagon is carrying blu's around now. Now we get to watch a bunch of ppl butcher a different job.

Why are ppl bandwagon blu's? hmmmmm this one is gonna be hard to figure out...

I don't bandwagon. I only play the jobs in demand. I take the time to master it before bringing it out in battle.

Bandwagon
To follow the group as it has the majority or a vast number of followers

I believe it also means to quickly gear a job to get the stuff u want for ur main job which is not the case for me.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-03 19:24:25
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Asura.Masrur said: »
The ready range needs to be loosened up by a few yalms.

The reward range should be removed or doubled.

Why.....

Pet's AI and pathing can be so retarded at times that it's not about the Beastmasters skill/experience, it's about luck.

I can get with the reward range being completely removed and the ready range being 5~7 yalms from pet. The idea being that the BST could stand back and charge up ready, then time when they run in and spam it or coordinate for SC's.

Just don't have them standing at 20+ feet barely paying any attention and still clearing T3's with ease.

Another thing to note is that the cRatio update was a huge boost to every other melee, especially 2H ones. Before that BST pets had an overpowered ratio advantage over everyone else, 4.0 vs 2.25. Now it's a lot more even, 4.0 vs 3.25 (1H) or 3.75 (2H).
 Asura.Failaras
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-04-03 19:56:54
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Ragnarok.Inx said: »
People really ought to stop trying to make equivalence with SMN too, yes SMN have a 30 sec minimum and MP requirements on Rage BP's but that's only a part of what the job can do. A huge part of SMN's repertoire is its support abilities, either directly applied to the party (Hastega2) or enfeebling targets into virtual inactivity (Mewling Lullaby spam).

Not to mention the frankly enormous damage that certain BP's can dish out...
Let's be real here, there's a reason that hastega 2 didn't really change anything when it was added to Rdm and Smn. It's pretty ***.
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By Anna Ruthven 2016-04-03 21:02:16
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
Why is it anyone who complains about the bst nerf or even wants to talk about it gets banned from the official forums?
Because disagreeing with another person on the OFs is against an unwritten rule. (Cue someone with a comment about our "catch-all rule" we borrowed from BG.)

Shiva.Malthar said: »
How do we get SE to listen?
Not by posting on a site SE doesn't follow. SE seems to listen when the majority is pissed off about something (like RMEs) and start quitting en masse over it. You're probably better off getting people to mass tweet FFXI_EN or something.

Anyway, I thought Rooks locked this thread earlier, I have no problem with you guys discussing grievances about BST as long as you all keep it civil.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2016-04-03 21:09:44
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Anna Ruthven said: »
Anyway, I thought Rooks locked this thread earlie

Why would Rooks lock the thread? He changed the title because he thought it was insensitive, but allowed discussions to continue.
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By Anna Ruthven 2016-04-03 21:45:34
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Shiva.Malthar said: »
Anna Ruthven said: »
Anyway, I thought Rooks locked this thread earlie

Why would Rooks lock the thread? He changed the title because he thought it was insensitive, but allowed discussions to continue.
I read his post wrong, I suppose.
 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2016-04-03 23:47:09
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Let's be real here, there's a reason that hastega 2 didn't really change anything when it was added to Rdm and Smn. It's pretty ***.

Everyone I play with finds it pretty damn useful! Bigger point is that it's a nice bonus ability (one of many) for a job that can also nuke for big damage.

BST in a party setting is pretty much a pure DD and as such has a narrower spectrum of utility.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-04-04 00:20:49
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Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Let's be real here, there's a reason that hastega 2 didn't really change anything when it was added to Rdm and Smn. It's pretty ***.

Everyone I play with finds it pretty damn useful! Bigger point is that it's a nice bonus ability (one of many) for a job that can also nuke for big damage.

BST in a party setting is pretty much a pure DD and as such has a narrower spectrum of utility.

Why do they find it useful? You can't cap magic haste with it alone. If you have a Bard you can cap it with Haste 1. If you have a Blu they self cap. If you have a Geo, which lets be honest is always a good idea, you can cap with haste 1. Unless you aren't properly party planning and just yoloing around with whatever on whatever, Haste 2 shouldn't ever do anything.

Summoner is primarily a DD, with a little support on the side, you could also call Blu the same thing but no one ever would.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2016-04-04 09:59:59
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Why do they find it useful? You can't cap magic haste with it alone. If you have a Bard you can cap it with Haste 1. If you have a Blu they self cap. If you have a Geo, which lets be honest is always a good idea, you can cap with haste 1. Unless you aren't properly party planning and just yoloing around with whatever on whatever, Haste 2 shouldn't ever do anything.

Summoner is primarily a DD, with a little support on the side, you could also call Blu the same thing but no one ever would.

Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.

The bottom line is that even though my BST is virtually perfect at this stage, I don't use it for everything - like every other job its situational. My BLU isn't nearly so developed and I still use that in preference for a lot of speed-kill fights like BC's and UNM's because frankly 2 or more moderately well built BLU's spamming CDC is overpowered as hell - far more so than BST ever was.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2016-04-04 10:30:06
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Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Why do they find it useful? You can't cap magic haste with it alone. If you have a Bard you can cap it with Haste 1. If you have a Blu they self cap. If you have a Geo, which lets be honest is always a good idea, you can cap with haste 1. Unless you aren't properly party planning and just yoloing around with whatever on whatever, Haste 2 shouldn't ever do anything.

Summoner is primarily a DD, with a little support on the side, you could also call Blu the same thing but no one ever would.

Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.

The bottom line is that even though my BST is virtually perfect at this stage, I don't use it for everything - like every other job its situational. My BLU isn't nearly so developed and I still use that in preference for a lot of speed-kill fights like BC's and UNM's because frankly 2 or more moderately well built BLU's spamming CDC is overpowered as hell - far more so than BST ever was.

This...people destroys low to mid tier content with blu zerg, do high end content with blm setup then proceed to claim bst is op and easy mode is something I can never understand.
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By fillerbunny9 2016-04-04 10:43:04
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Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing

that's funny. I've watched people literally shout for 2 hours at 5/6 members for a GEO. Apex parties are a healer, GEO, 1-2 people who will create a skillchain, and then BLM or SCH to nuke for the kill. you'll occasionally get an odd job filling the SC role (seen PUP and WAR handling the SC before, for example) but that is how the playerbase is locked into getting CP.
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By Grumpy Cat 2016-04-04 13:23:49
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I left in 2013 and came back recently because FFExplorers made me miss FFXI BST. I *thought* I remembered doing ACP with a rabbit while standing a mile away and having it do Ready moves. When I came back I thought I was delusional because I had to be so close for things, but when I started playing this time, the short range felt correct.

I guess I also throw a little bit of "this feels more real" into it. If I were really in a battle with a monster between my pet and I, it might be a little hard for my pet to understand a command I shout over the monster, or from 30 feet away. Throwing a dog treat at them from that far also doesn't feel right.

I was really confused when I saw this topic because I thought they shortened it even more than it was... err is.

When I came back BST is a helluva lot stronger than it used to be. Just remember Unleash could be "eat your pet to get stoneskin" and stop whining so much.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-04-04 13:42:37
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Quote:
Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.
So yoloing around with whatever on whatever like I said :P. You had really already decided in that situation to play Smn, not because Haste 2 is good or anything but because you wanted to.
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By Ragnarok.Phuoc 2016-04-04 13:51:35
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Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Why do they find it useful? You can't cap magic haste with it alone. If you have a Bard you can cap it with Haste 1. If you have a Blu they self cap. If you have a Geo, which lets be honest is always a good idea, you can cap with haste 1. Unless you aren't properly party planning and just yoloing around with whatever on whatever, Haste 2 shouldn't ever do anything.

Summoner is primarily a DD, with a little support on the side, you could also call Blu the same thing but no one ever would.

Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.

The bottom line is that even though my BST is virtually perfect at this stage, I don't use it for everything - like every other job its situational. My BLU isn't nearly so developed and I still use that in preference for a lot of speed-kill fights like BC's and UNM's because frankly 2 or more moderately well built BLU's spamming CDC is overpowered as hell - far more so than BST ever was.

This...people destroys low to mid tier content with blu zerg, do high end content with blm setup then proceed to claim bst is op and easy mode is something I can never understand.


This x1000, i got blu ok geared and almost maxed and i rarely used bst for the last month, its either blu or sch, i dont understand the purpose of this thread outside the usual ppl hating bst lol
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2016-04-04 15:24:28
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Quote:
Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.
So yoloing around with whatever on whatever like I said :P. You had really already decided in that situation to play Smn, not because Haste 2 is good or anything but because you wanted to.

Why are you fixating on Haste2? My point was just that SMN offers a ton of functionality beyond DD'ing. I mentioned that particular BP because its one I'm often asked to maintain full-time whether fighting fodder or high-tier Escha stuff like WoC or Kouryu. With SMN's humongous mp pool 250mp every 7 mins is a drop in the bucket for 30% haste on an entire party. Its essentially a free buff that has no impact on damage output because the 30s minimum gives tons of time to do stuff between nukes.

Regarding Apex parties, on my server most of the stronger/in-demand jobs were capped on JP months ago, making it less of a case of there being no GEO's, BLM's or SCH period, than there being few who need JP on those jobs anymore but plenty who are trying to finish up their nth alternative job. Which is of course the whole point of CP-partying in the first place, so frankly so long as JP flows fast and smooth any party setup is the right choice.

Really not sure what point you are trying to make by arguing with me about this. If an ability has benefit -no matter how circumstantial-, its still a positive. and ignoring it is just being obtuse.
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By Asura.Failaras 2016-04-04 15:53:50
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Quote:
A huge part of SMN's repertoire is its support abilities

Quote:
If an ability has benefit -no matter how circumstantial-

Pick one.

You're right though this really has no point.
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2016-04-04 17:49:13
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Asura.Failaras said: »
Quote:
A huge part of SMN's repertoire is its support abilities

Quote:
If an ability has benefit -no matter how circumstantial-

Pick one.

You're right though this really has no point.

Why pick one when there is no contradiction?

Blood Pact: Rage, and Blood Pact: Ward.

Nukes/offensive attacks, and support abilities,Over 40 of the latter sharing a common delay reduction attribute but running on independent timers. Avatars can be swapped in/out (mp permitting) at will, no pesky call-beast timer to worry about and all cast instantly.
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By Asura.Saevel 2016-04-04 19:08:02
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Ragnarok.Phuoc said: »
Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Asura.Failaras said: »
Why do they find it useful? You can't cap magic haste with it alone. If you have a Bard you can cap it with Haste 1. If you have a Blu they self cap. If you have a Geo, which lets be honest is always a good idea, you can cap with haste 1. Unless you aren't properly party planning and just yoloing around with whatever on whatever, Haste 2 shouldn't ever do anything.

Summoner is primarily a DD, with a little support on the side, you could also call Blu the same thing but no one ever would.

Getting off-topic here a bit, but in situations like Apex Parties where slots are taken based on need for JP, not min/maxing its pretty damn useful to have a job that can both haste and nuke hard. We've also used it extensively against Escha NM's where keeping party-size small is advantageous and having jobs that can cover more than one aspect is useful.

The bottom line is that even though my BST is virtually perfect at this stage, I don't use it for everything - like every other job its situational. My BLU isn't nearly so developed and I still use that in preference for a lot of speed-kill fights like BC's and UNM's because frankly 2 or more moderately well built BLU's spamming CDC is overpowered as hell - far more so than BST ever was.

This...people destroys low to mid tier content with blu zerg, do high end content with blm setup then proceed to claim bst is op and easy mode is something I can never understand.


This x1000, i got blu ok geared and almost maxed and i rarely used bst for the last month, its either blu or sch, i dont understand the purpose of this thread outside the usual ppl hating bst lol

Umm what

All people ask for are BST zergs or SCH / GEO / BLM on everything. The only content that they melee now is Apex parties. Anytime I see a shout for BLU it's for AoE cleave or Apex. Hell SR is now BLM or bust. It's why I occasionally make a shout for Bubbly Bernie demanding Idris GEO's and Death BLMs.
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